Recreational Herding: Is It Ethical?

[emilyfalk]

YB, you could find a million examples of handlers who started out as a hobby, particularly in the US. That's not my point. The people who become successful handlers have a different outlook on everything than those I consider to be on the inappropriate side of recreational herders: the ones who see sheep as dog toys.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I don't think anyone has championed the idea of turning dogs loose to grab or kill sheep. Nothing has to be either/or, black/white. Maybe I'm naive because I don't trial but I think the majority of instructors and important handlers would stop a session if needed.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

Great, so again here is the comment of sheep as dog toys.

Hopefully this thread can keep from suffering the same fate as the other thread.

I think it's a bad idea to think the worst of so called recreational handlers. As I pointed out, 1) many well known people started as recreational handlers and 2) not every recreational handler is going to allow the bad treatment of stock.

[rushdoggie]

I recently spent time with a family whose dogs are competing for a UDX, but were unmannerly at home. Anyone who spends time with obedience or agility dogs has seen many like them: excellent competitors but less mannerly than many "untrained" household pet. Unmannerly trained sheepdogs exist but they are rare.

 

I have struggled with how to word this reply because I genuinely don't want to come off as aggressive or seem like I am calling you a liar. But, you say spent time with dogs who were trained well enough they could compete in Open and Utility obedience, and they were not able to be well behaved at home? That seems, well, kind of unlikely. If a dog can heel precisely off lead, control himself between exercises when there are jumps in the rings, hold a stay while the owner is out of the room and generally keep himself together in a dog show environment, then this dog is pretty well trained for basic urban life.

 

My puppy (who thanks to a lazy and busy owner pretty much only gets trained at his class and in a weekly group training time and occasionally goes tracking) has learned about half of those skills. He is 19 months old, girl crazy, very busy and has all the tools he needs to be mannerly at home.

 

Now, I have known a very few people who compete in dog sports whose dogs were rude in their behavior (my version of "unmannerly" I guess) but that wasn't because they couldn't be polite, but for whatever reason their humans did not require it. That's not the same thing at all.

.

[Mark Billadeau]

Is this an example of respect for livestock or livestock as dog toys?

 

 

Herding, Agility
and other fun sports can be added to any daycare or boarding stay.

 

Link excluded on purpose.

[emilyfalk]

Yes, there are plenty of people who see only $$$ from lesson costs who will do exactly as I say with a dog who treats the sheep poorly. Since you did not know this, maybe there are others reading who also did not know this, and maybe will understand why some people seem upset by the general idea of recreational herding *when not done correctly*. I'm not arguing with you that people can do it *right*, I know lots of people who take occasional lessons and have the right attitude. I'm just trying to show that people do it wrong and do not think of the sheep; we need to be aware of this and try to educate.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

@Mark

I googled that phrase and, considering the caliber of instructors who teach there, I would classify that facility as one where a hobbyist can learn correctly, from top people in the field.

On the website it states that day pass is by approval only and their in house instructor has a degree in animal husbandry, and has managed livestock since 1970.

I would love access to that location.

[Mark Billadeau]

How is a hobbyist/owner learning about livestock when their pre-approved dog is being trained during a daycare stay? I can see this as an alternative to sending a dog out for training. Did you see the owner must also take lessons as a pre-approval requirement?

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I know of many instances of dogs being sent to we'll respected trainers for some time. I don't see myself ever sending my dogs away but I know it happens. And no, I did not see that the owner is required to take classes. But hypothetically, if I were to go on an extended trip and this facility were an option for me, I would include herding, sure. The instructor there, and those who are available, are of much higher caliber than me and could tell me a lot that I might not see about my own dog, due to my lesser knowledge and my emotional attachment to my dogs.

I would absolutely take advantage of a dispassionate assessment of my dog by making use of instructors of that level of knowledge.

[TEC]

It can and it should.

However, I do see examples where it does not and I'm seeing an increase in examples where it does not.

YeseniaBeauchamp had asked Mr. Billadeau whether students who attend lessons chiefly for their dogs, will eventually develop an interest in learning good stockmanship? Will the new student begin to develop an appreciation for the entire handler-sheep-dog triangle and its place in raising sheep, growing wool, and regard for the land? Mr. Billadeau's answer is in quotes, above.

 

My observation attending instruction has been that new stockwork students who arrive with little or no inherent interest in and/or desire to learn his/her part usually drift-off rather soon, after only a few lessons. IME, they appear to be in the minority. I'm sure there are instances in which nobody is more surprised than the new student, when he/she wants to steadily stick with it because working in the field is satisfying to both handler and dog.

 

Occasionally, for example, a person's mobility is too restricted for good handling, he/she can't be out in weather, or the travel is too much. The valid reasons for discontinuing lessons are many

 

For others, a solid short gather and fetch may have been the only goal, and sufficient for needs on their farms. Those skills can sometimes be molded in a brief series of lessons. A core of handlers,which I see, return on a regular basis to learn advanced skills and to refine what they have.

 

IMO, in all cases such as the above, a good deal has been gained, and nothing has been harmed. Seasoned instructors will see to that. I believe that if you have the "want to" for yourself, and if one qualified instructor turns you down, be persistent and call another. Find one you like and can relate to. -- TEC

 

ETA: The issue of sending a dog away for training was raised as I wrote the above. I believe it is usually a bad idea for novice handlers. Learn with your dog. Some recommend that a new handler acquire an experienced dog from the beginning. That is good advice for some...often pricey (yet IMO not absolutely necessary). I think learning together is the best bet. Developing your own training skills, with help of an instructor, is a big part of the picture.

 

Nevertheless, a busy rancher who is a novice handler, may need a seasoned dog right out of the crate, and after an intensive handler bootcamp, he will be able to use that dog to make his living.

[bcnewe2]

I have struggled with how to word this reply because I genuinely don't want to come off as aggressive or seem like I am calling you a liar. But, you say spent time with dogs who were trained well enough they could compete in Open and Utility obedience, and they were not able to be well behaved at home? That seems, well, kind of unlikely. If a dog can heel precisely off lead, control himself between exercises when there are jumps in the rings, hold a stay while the owner is out of the room and generally keep himself together in a dog show environment, then this dog is pretty well trained for basic urban life.

 

Well then call me a liar too! I have a friend who does obedience over all other dog interests. Her dogs are working on their advanced titles (forgive me, I don't pay attention to the names of the titles) and she keeps crates all over her house to put the dogs up when they are getting on her nerves.

I have nothing against crates or their use. Putting a puppy in one to calm down? Nothing better. But if left out, her dogs are whiney in your face and just obnoxious. I figure they get away with what ever she lets them get away with so...you make the bed you lie in. But it does happen!

 

Recreational herding....sounds sort of less than, or insulting if you read more into it. But in my mind all it means is you do not own sheep nor do you use your dog working sheep for a main source of income. But that meaning could be stretched into enjoying working your dog on sheep. Be them yours or someone else's sheep. Many a Sunday or anyday for that matter have I spent at friends doing what we love to do...working sheep. Yes it was recreational, as in I had a wonderful time. If you are professional boater you still are allowed to do recreational boating. Or insert your favorite past time. That's my take on recreational herding.

[Mark Billadeau]

So no else one here sees an increase in media, ads, and websites that promote herding in a way that would give the impression that it’s okay to use livestock as a means to entertain or exercise dogs?

 

I guess I'm just delusional and I haven't even spent much time on YouTube.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I can say I don't recall one single ad where herding is promoted.

I know there is a movie coming, using pictures and handlers.

But I can't recall any ads or media or websites promoting herding. Maybe I spend too much time carding, spinning, and knitting. And occasionally moving sheep.

[emilyfalk]

Obviously Mark and I are in the minority in this discussion. All I have to do is hop online and in 5 seconds I can find plenty of examples of people promoting poor examples of stocksmanship. I don't understand why people continue to bring up positive examples of recreational herding. No one has said that is never the case, but on the contrary, it's often the case! This is fun! But I find it strange how few people will acknowledge that there are lots of people who use sheep inappropriately...especially since the focus of this board is for working dogs. I bet the discussion would be different on a livestock forum.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

Possibly because, in my instance, I haven't seen an instructor using his sheep in an inappropriate manner? I would imagine any instructor would protect his livestock first, if for no other reason, if I were cynical, as it's his paycheck.

What about trials? Isn't the same flock used over and over again throughout an entire weekend? Honest question, not a challenge. How is that different from an instructor led class?

[emilyfalk]

Trial hosts are responsible for using enough sheep to prevent excessive use. There are lots of trials that do not rerun sheep over the weekend, or maybe just once or twice. And then there are trials where sheep are overused. In most cases, hosts who can't come up with enough sheep to prevent excessive use will limit the number of entries to avoid this problem. One reason I haven't hosted a trial yet is that I'd have to rent sheep to provide enough fresh ones to run. Some people do this and can put on a great trial doing so!! The Bluegrass is an excellent example of running on rented sheep who remain fresh over 5 days...run once on the Open field, once on the Novice field, and then may be used in the Finals.

[GentleLake]

The issue of sending a dog away for training was raised as I wrote the above. I believe it is a bad idea for novice handlers. Learn with your dog. Some recommend that a new handler acquire an experienced dog from the beginning. That is good advice (but IMO not absolutely necessary). I think learning together is the best bet. Developing your own training skills, with help of an instructor, is a big part of the picture.

 

That may well depend on the circumstances. I started out as a novice with a dog who was a very tough dog with a dirty bite. My then-husband and I didn't have the skills to train him properly without his hurting sheep, so we sent him away for training. He came back a manageable, started dog who no longer tore at sheep. With the help of clinics, we were then able to continue his training ourselves, developing our handling and training skills along the way.

 

Without sending him away, though, we would either have had some injured sheep or we would have given up herding altogether. As it was, we ended up with a nice flock of sheep and a couple good working dogs.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

OK, thank you, that makes sense. I was wondering about the huge trials that last for four/five days.

I really must go to more trials. I'd like to try to go to the Bluegrass.

Thank you for the answer.

Now let's go back to fighting!!! :-D

[bcnewe2]

Of course I to have seen herding misrepresented on you tube and the likes but I wouldn't call that recreational herding. I'd call that abuse. I think the increase is the advertising on places like you tube and fb but those places have always been around.

A pathetic excuse for working. I don't go looking for those you tubes unless they are pointed out here. Then I'm usually dumbfounded that they are out there for public viewing. Just goes to show you how uneducated people are when it comes to working dogs.

Given the general public's lack of knowledge of herding I can imagine a day care offering herding as a activity to do with Fido. What are you going to do? Except keep putting out good examples of working dogs. It's the bad examples that get more attention.

So is that what the consensus is on rec. herding? Stock abuse?

guess I need to re-examine the word recreational and what it means to me.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Rushdoggie writes:" I have struggled with how to word this reply because I genuinely don't want to come off as aggressive or seem like I am calling you a liar. But, you say spent time with dogs who were trained well enough they could compete in Open and Utility obedience, and they were not able to be well behaved at home? That seems, well, kind of unlikely. If a dog can heel precisely off lead, control himself between exercises when there are jumps in the rings, hold a stay while the owner is out of the room and generally keep himself together in a dog show environment, then this dog is pretty well trained for basic urban life."

 

One would think so and one of the reasons obedience competitions were begun was to encourage better trained pet (purebred) dogs. Unfortunately, some dogs game the system and compete well but are awful outside the ring. Such awfulness seems to be independent of training philosophy - I've seen advanced clicker Border Collies that couldn't go out in public and - as I wrote - traditionally trained UDX candidates that were yappy, hysterical and unmannerly in their own home. Yes, they obeyed commands. After and before the commands was the problem. In a recent training post I wrote about the yellow lab that was attacked by a Border Collie who jumped from his own obedience ring for the assault.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

I think you made some very good points here, Emily and I appreciate them and agree with them. And that's based on my experiences, which are much more limited than yours.

 

What you said about those who really want to "learn", do things "correctly", and act "appropriately" towards the stock really summed up a lot of my feelings. That approach alone would eliminate those who just want to have "fun" even though it is at the expense of the stock; do what their dog was "bred to do" even if it wasn't bred for this for generations but they assume it is because it is a "herding breed" (or, even worse, the people and facilities that allow any sort of dog whatsoever on the sheep/ducks/whatever to bring out its "inner herder"); and those who simply consider sheep/ducks/calves to be "dog toys" or don't even consider them at all.

 

Well, I didn't mean to imply that everyone needs to go the distance. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted. I was trying to demonstrate that in my case, my dog has been totally happy without working sheep, and that I got the other dogs in order to do it the way it's supposed to be done.

I do think that herding *should* be available to an elite few: those who want to learn, do things correctly, and act appropriately toward the sheep. Maybe you guys have seen different examples of the "bad ones" than I have, but in my experience, there are way too many people doing it for the wrong reasons, which goes for newbies, instructors, and even some trialers. I know you care about your sheep, Julie, so I'm sure you're not the type of instructor letting people run amok with their dogs. But the wrong attitude is out there, in the border collie world and the all-breed world.

[Camden's Mom]

So is that what the consensus is on rec. herding? Stock abuse?

guess I need to re-examine the word recreational and what it means to me.

 

Gosh, no!! That's not what I've gotten from this conversation at all, personally, although others may disagree.

 

I think the term "recreational" is muddying the waters a whole lot here. I personally do not think that if something is done "recreationally" that translates to it being done poorly. Quite the contrary, many people pursue "recreations" in the way of developing a craft with the intent being to better ones self at the chosen skill.

[geonni banner]

[Shetlander]

I know an obedience person who puts the vast majority of her effort into training what is needed in the ring. Her dogs have basic manners but she ignores what I view as some obnoxious behaviors at home. It just wasn't important to her to work on house manners compared to refining obedience exercises. The scores, titles and ribbons were her priority. I have also seen a couple people who let their dogs be rude louts in exchange for the highly controlled, perfect performance they expected in the ring. I don't find them to be the majority however.

 

I took Quinn to sheep after seeing his intense reaction to them at a friend's house years ago. I was the epitome of someone who engaged in recreational herding with her keen but not especially talented dog. Quinn's sheep lessons gave me deeper respect for the breed and also the stock. I didn't see a change in Quinn's behavior overall. I do think working sheep made him happy in a way nothing else does. However, it just wasn't a practical pursuit for us. Fortunately, he has other interests and remains happy despite not having access to sheep.

[GentleLake]

One would think so and one of the reasons obedience competitions were begun was to encourage better trained pet (purebred) dogs. Unfortunately, some dogs game the system and compete well but are awful outside the ring. Such awfulness seems to be independent of training philosophy - I've seen advanced clicker Border Collies that couldn't go out in public and - as I wrote - traditionally trained UDX candidates that were yappy, hysterical and unmannerly in their own home. Yes, they obeyed commands. After and before the commands was the problem.

 

The problem isn't clicker training. (Nice way to get a little dig in there.)

 

I started out doing obedience, though I didn't stay there very long. And I saw and have seen since dogs like the ones you mention, very precise obedience competitors but heathens at home.

 

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the style of training. Heck, there was no clicker training when I was doing competitive obedience, so you certainly can't blame the training methods for the dogs like this I observed at that time!

 

The reason this happens, plain and simple, is that people have one set of expectations and enforcement in one situation and a completely different set in another. These trainers expected the dogs to respond during training sessions and in the rings. And they enforced those expectations one way or another in those situations. But they didn't expect or enforce the same behaviors at home. It's a perfect example of having to proof the behavior in different locations.

 

Both dogs and people both fall prey to the trap of situational learning. If I only teach "sit" in one location and never in another one, regardless of the style of training I employ, then my dog is likely to believe that the cue "sit" is only germane in that location.

 

If I only reinforce (or enforce) the "sit" in one location, then why should I assume the dog will do it anywhere, any time? It probably won't. And that's what I've seen when I've seen dogs that are impeccably well behaved in one situation, and not so much at home or out on a walk. The problem is that the owners/handlers aren't consistent with the dogs.

 

It might be interpreted as the dogs gaming the system, but it could equally -- and probably more accurately -- be seen as owners/handlers who forfeit the game and just aren't playing all the time.