Prong VS Martiangle Collar?

[Schaferhunde AKA Sheepdog]

I have three year old Border Collie/Poodle mix, Bindy. While she excels at many commands,she has very high prey drive. Since were there is Abuant amount of wildlife, where I live. When Bindy see another animal,or person, she'll start pulling on the leash. I find the a dangerours habit.I'm worried that she'll pull me into a busy road, harming me or Bindy.

 

I've tried using using food,toys,etc... I had no luck.

[Shetlander]

I've used prong collars but the concern I would have with your situation is the prong increasing or leading to aggression. I have seen that in a couple of my dogs who start associating the discomfort or pain of the collar with what they are looking at/pulling towards. For that reason, I no longer use them. There are no pull harnesses that discourage pulling. And I would keep working on loose leash walking and obedience to commsnds in less exciting venues than your walk. When you have good success in one fairly boring locale, then up the distractions a bit at a time so you build on success. Good luck!

[Gloria Atwater]

I loathe and despise a prong collar. They don't train, they cause pain. Punitive collars are too easily misused - even accidentally - and if the dog lunges and hits that collar, it can cause real damage. That pain can, in fact, increase his agitation rather than prevent it.

 

Food and toys don't correct leash-pulling, because the stimulus that causes the dog to pull is far stronger than any interest in a toy or treat.

 

Are there any obedience trainers near you? Even just a couple lessons could help you.

 

There is also a book out there whom many have recommended called, "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. I have not read it, but it's highly reviewed. Though geared towards obedience and agility training, it covers things like reactivity and how to manage them in an effective, confident way, and is useful even to those who will never compete. It's available on Amazon.com.

 

If the book is out of your price range, see if your local library has it or can order it in for you.

 

Please, please don't look for the quick fix. Look for proper training for you and your dog. You must learn how to correct this, not just bribe or punish him, and to do so in a way that he understands and thrives with.

 

Best of luck,

 

Gloria

[geonni banner]

I don't see the martingale collar as a training device at all. It's a fairly reliable anti-slip collar, but fairly useless at administering a correction - if that is what you had in mind. The whole point of a martingale is to contain the dog securely with the least discomfort possible.

 

As for a prong collar, it certainly can administer a correction, but it can also do damage to a dog that typically pulls on the lead or is prone to violent lunges. Dogs should not be allowed to pull and lunge in a prong collar. I think you need to address the concept of a slack lead at all times before trying to administer a correction with a prong collar.

 

Also, if you are not well-versed in the technique of correcting with a prong collar I would recommend getting some professional instruction. (Ditto a choke chain.)

[G. Festerling]

Neither collar is appropriate for anything but backup.

I don't like prongs although I have used them in the past. For one or two sessions with dogs who had major issues. Always looking to get away from them ASAP.

Find a good trainer. Shaping, traditional methods, whatever. They work. You may not have found what works for your dog yet.

[Debbie Meier]

I would stay with a high quality flat buckle collar(do not use the ones with the plastic closure) and use a longer leash and loop it around her ribcage turning it into a harness, this will prevent you from injuring her neck and finding yourself giving into her for fear of choking her.

 

When she pulls come to a complete stop and give her a firm correction with the leash, one that is strong enough that distracts her even for a instant from what she is wanting. Don't go back to walking, just wait, might be a split second might be a couple of seconds but she will pull again. When she does repeat the previous process including rewarding her for giving you her attention until she gives you her complete attention and can hold it while you are standing still. After that happens go back to walking, if she pulls start the process over. Eventually you will be able to give her a correction while walking that will remind her to keep her mind on you. Basically you will be teaching her how to properly walk along with your in public replacing a newly shaped correct behaivor with a incorrect behaivor.

 

The only reason a dog the size of yours will be able to pull you into traffic is if you allow her, plant your feet and don't let her rule the day. You are taking her for a walk, she should not be taking you for a walk. If you ever want to get into livestock work succeeding in teaching this dog to walk on the leash will be your first step to training a stockdog. If you can't do this then I would advise against getting into livestock work.

[Journey]

Well, in this situation I for one would advocate the prong. Make sure it's properly fitted. Snug. Use it along with a buckle collar. Use the prong in the areas you need it and then flip the lead to the buckle.

[Maralynn]

<dons on fire retardant suit>

 

Personally I'd probably use a prong collar. I had very good success using a prong with my super puller. She was a "hey look - cat (squirrel, person, etc)! Woo-Hoo lets GO!!" dog. I got pulled over. Twice.

 

I used a prong combined with heavily rewarding good behavior and teaching self control in every aspect of life that I could.

 

The prong was self correcting - she pulled, she got corrected, she learned. She didn't pull, she got rewarded.

 

FWIW, I haven't had a prong on her in about a year now and she now does some really nice loose leash/flat collar walking in the presence of other dogs and people.

[geonni banner]

I think what needs to be established is if the dog in question is an all-the-time puller or a dog that only pulls when faced with certain stimuli. A chronic puller is (IMO) less of a candidate for prong-collar corrections. I personally would use a choke and the "about face" etc. etc. method. I find a choke more effective for this.

 

Many folks would advocate a harness - front attached or other kind of anti-pulling harness. I don't use them because I never met a chronic puller that couldn't be turned around with one or two intensive sessions with a choke and 6-foot lead.

 

But a dog who violently throws his weight at the end of the lead because he is suddenly in "chase mode" needs to be handled somewhat differently. He needs to be taught that the appearance of a chase-worthy object is the signal for him to give the handler his full attention - as in "turn around, look at me and wait for instructions". There are a number of ways to go about this. Mine would tend to be more on the side of physical correction, but there are other ways to do it which work well for people trained in their use.

 

Debbie's advice is good, but many do not have the timing or the ability to keep their emotions from reducing their corrections effectiveness. That's why I would like to see the OP's dog worked on under a trainer experienced with this kind of problem - regardless of his/her training method.

[Schaferhunde AKA Sheepdog]

We have some obedience class tomorrow night-it's one on one. Sorry for my lack of knowledge, our different local trainer said Martiangle stopped pulling,& treats & toys should always be used with everything.

 

I'm very confused there people who say it helps,& they should be used,& others they prong are no use at all.

So, I'm still iffy about if I'll use a prong.

[Root Beer]

We have some obedience class tomorrow night-it's one on one. Sorry for my lack of knowledge, our different local trainer said Martiangle stopped pulling,& treats & toys should always be used with everything.

 

There are specific ways to use reinforcement (treats, toys, etc.) for a situation like this.

 

It will most likely not work to take a dog into a situation like this and then pull out the treats and toys. It might with dogs who are super toy or food motivated, but you have noted that your dog is not, and really that is completely normal.

 

The groundwork for the call off must be done away from the situation, and the strength must be built into the exercise before it will be reliable in this particular scenario.

 

I would recommend that you ask your trainer about this. It can be done, but if you are just getting started with training, you will need some instruction.

 

If you would like more info, feel free to PM me. I can let you know of some resources that may help.

[beachdogz]

I'd like to borrow Maralyn's fire retardant suit for a minute here. I have watched these method battles go on for 37 years now.

 

Equipment is not abusive. People are. Your hand can be abusive. A buckle collar can be abusive. Anything can be abusive if it is used as such - yes, even food!

 

That said, I am thankful for all the methods available because every dog is different, and one method does not fit every dog. Judie Howard's seminar was my all-time favorite because back in the old days, she opened by saying "Everyone always asks me what method I use. I tell them I use the 'whatever works' method!" A good trainer never rules out anything, but uses what will accomplish the goal with the least amount of force. For some dogs, that is food and praise. But for other dogs, a pinch collar can be just the right tool for training.

 

I agree that a pinch collar must be used correctly. It should not have to entail any kind of hard, forceful jerk. I have physically found (on myself) that a pinch collar that is "jerked" is less harsh than a chain choke collar. However, I used a chain choke on my dogs for years (back in the old days), and my dogs NEVER had throat problems, esophagus problems or irritation problems. They never squealed in pain. However, they never "choked" themselves either. Once again, the equipment has to be used properly. My dogs loved to be trained and were happy workers. I have also used food, gentle leaders (back then, a halti) and I chose not to use shock collars due to a problem I had with a bark collar. However, for a dog that all else fails, I have seen a shock collar work well.

 

If you decide to embark on a pinch collar, I would suggest that you 1. Contact a trainer who knows how to use it humanely, to teach you how to use it and 2. Absolutely, positively, do not put it on your dog just in the lunging situation....that is a recipe for disaster. Teaching him to heel on a pinch collar should be done prior to the lunging situation, so that he learns NOT to lunge at all. (I hope I explained that correctly.)

 

Just my two cents on the subject. :0)

[beachdogz]

I don't see the martingale collar as a training device at all. It's a fairly reliable anti-slip collar, but fairly useless at administering a correction - if that is what you had in mind. The whole point of a martingale is to contain the dog securely with the least discomfort possible.

 

As for a prong collar, it certainly can administer a correction, but it can also do damage to a dog that typically pulls on the lead or is prone to violent lunges. Dogs should not be allowed to pull and lunge in a prong collar. I think you need to address the concept of a slack lead at all times before trying to administer a correction with a prong collar.

 

Also, if you are not well-versed in the technique of correcting with a prong collar I would recommend getting some professional instruction. (Ditto a choke chain.)

 

and I agree with all of the above, added to what I said.

[Journey]

Where or when did the OP say the dog was lunging? Pulling, when she sees a person or animal. A far cry from lunging and hopefully never allowed to get to that point.

[rushdoggie]

I am not a huge fan of punishment collars, in general. I think training can go better with less correction and more teaching in small increments.

 

However, a prong collar, properly fitted, the correct size (probably smaller than you think) and set on both rings (so it doesn't tighten) can be a useful and not abusive training tool to teach a dog how to walk on a leash. I typically only use this method for large strong dogs who have the strength to pull their owner over. I also put a flat collar and a second leash on, for 2 reasons: 1. prong collars can come apart and you have a dog without a collar, and 2. so I can give subtle cues with light pressure on the flat collar when I am able (which ultimately is my goal).

 

That said, you really need to retrain the whole deal away from distractions and gradually add them, as opposed to getting him in a training collar to deal with the distractions.

 

Please DON'T administer leash corrections on a flat or rolled collar because that can actually be very damaging to your dogs neck/throat. I am not a fan of choke chain types either. I would rather see you use a prong than either of those to "correct" bad behavior because it is far less likely to damage your dog.

 

ETA: this article by Suzanne Clothier is how I learned to use a prong collar. As I said, I think there are better ways, but if you are going to use one, use it correctly.

 

Training with the Prong Collar

 

I rarely used a Medium or Large prong collar except on the largest dogs (example - on a large Rottie, I might use a Medium; on a 165 lb. Great Dane, I did use the Large!) Generally speaking, most dogs under 75 lbs. get the best fit and the best results with the small prong collar. For toy dogs, see the paragraph above. My preferred brand of collar is the German import Herm Sprenger. A bit more expensive, these are well made collars. There is also a snap-on version of the prong collar. While not as easy as it sounds, this is a good choice for owners with limited hand strength and/or arthritis which makes a standard prong collar difficult to put on the dog.

 

When properly fitted, the prong collar should be at roughly the mid-way point on the dog's neck, with the chain portion flat, not sagging. Beware those who recommend fitting a prong collar (or any collar) up high, near the dog's ears - their intention is to cause pain by putting the collar in this nerve rich, muscle poor area of great sensitivity.

 

My initial set up is ALWAYS with the leash hooked to both rings, so that there is NO tightening action whatsoever. For most dogs, this is all they ever need. The collar's effect may be further altered by: enclosing the entire collar in latex sheeting (available in any horse supply store), covered in material or slipped through a hair band, wrapped in silk (excellent for finely textured hair coats). Altering the number of prongs facing inward toward the dog also changes the collar's effect; for some dogs, I have used the prong collar inside out.

 

NEVER let the dog "self-correct" by hitting the end of the lead. Engage the dog verbally & physically, asking for simple tasks like walking with you. Give subtle, fluttering signals - often a mere flexing of the fingers is sufficient. Praise the dog for responding. If the dog bolts away from you and tries to pull, do NOT pull back or sharply check him. Go with him, offering repeated gentle tugs until you have him back under control. Then pay more attention so that doesn't happen again.

 

For some dogs, in situations of high arousal, owners may need to switch to a single ring in order to engage the limited tightening action. Do NOT automatically hook the leash to just one ring - this may be far more stimulation than the dog needs. An aggressive response can be provoked by such excess stimulation (whether with the prong collar or any other stimuli); however, prong collars do NOT make dogs aggressive.

 

Many dogs need the extra input of the prong collar only in certain situations (such as group heeling in a class or out walking in public) but are quieter & able to respond to a buckle or slip collar at other times (while practicing stays or hand signals, or in familiar, quiet surroundings). In my classes, owners were instructed to have both collars on the dog, and switch between them as needed and as indicated by the dog's behavior & responses.

 

Always keep a buckle collar on the dog who is wearing a prong collar, and where possible, keep a fail-safe strap or tab running from the leash to the buckle collar, by passing the prong. Dogs can and do break, pop open or simply cause the prong collar to open & fall off unexpectedly. Should that happen, the fail-safe strap is still connecting leash to buckle collar!

[geonni banner]

Where or when did the OP say the dog was lunging? Pulling, when she sees a person or animal. A far cry from lunging and hopefully never allowed to get to that point.

The word lunging was not used, however the OP did express concern about being dragged into traffic. If a Border Collie-sized dog could drag a resisting adult human into traffic it is obviously "putting it's back into it." You may not call it lunging, but whatever you call it, it's some pretty tough pulling!

 

(Echos of "Fenton! Fenton!" in the background)

[Gloria Atwater]

There are many methods and many means of training. While I do dislike prong collars, I agree that any piece of equipment can be mishandled and cause injury and/or pain. The difference lies in the handler knowing exactly how to use the equipment they have chosen.

 

The reason I said nix to a prong collar is that she described her dog as "very high prey drive" and further says that the dog pulls hard enough that she fears being pulled into the street. This tells me she's facing a lot more than simply a dog straining on a leash. If that were all, a person could just pop the leash and turn the other way, but she seems to be describing a much more volatile situation. Therefore, if she is not trained in proper use of a prong collar, I don't advocate its use, because a dog that goes into "prey" mode and pulls sharply enough to haul her into the street does risk causing itself injury, by hitting a prong collar employed by someone unskilled in its used.

 

I may of course be entirely wrong.

 

Bottom line, I believe Schaferhunde needs more instruction than her current trainer seems able to offer, if said trainer is suggesting treats to distract a dog from prey drive. That just doesn't work.

 

I still recommend "Control Unleashed," simply because it comes so highly reviewed. The dog needs its thinking and responses reshaped and she needs to learn how to accomplish that. So, whatever the method she finds, I hope people here can help her find it and get her pointed in the right direction.

 

~ Gloria

[Gideon's girl]

Prong collars and ecollars have the same problem. The handler needs to be an expert trainer to even consider using it. A prong collar that is adjusted so that it won't tighten can damage the trachea if the dog lunges or just pulls hard, and adjusted correctly is usually too harsh a correction for a BC. They work great on breeds of dogs that are known for having tough necks, like GSDs and Pits. Like every "training device" they are not a substitute for good basic training. After your dog has been through several months of training under the eye of an experienced trainer and you're still having this problem, then I would consider stronger methods, but never as a quick fix to a problem.

[Schaferhunde AKA Sheepdog]

The word lunging was not used, however the OP did express concern about being dragged into traffic. If a Border Collie-sized dog could drag a resisting adult human into traffic it is obviously "putting it's back into it." You may not call it lunging, but whatever you call it, it's some pretty tough pulling!

 

(Echos of "Fenton! Fenton!" in the background)

 

 

Bindy is the size of Standard Poodle-bigger then A BC. I'm not that heavy, I'm under 110 pounds(everyone on my mums side are very small). Bindy is very strong pulled. Heck, sometimes my father gets tragged!

[geonni banner]

You say Bindy has high prey drive. Would you characterize what she does when she sees an animal or person as head-down, dig in and "pull like a Husky," or does she leap forward and hit the end of the lead, and then bounce? Is the type of pulling different when she sees a person than when she sees another animal? Different when she sees a wild creature than a dog? Does she vocalize? Head up or lowered? Hackles? Wagging? Does she keep a slack lead when there are no animals or people visible?

[Maralynn]

Pulling is highly self rewarding to a dog. the more they practice it, the less sensitive they get to the person on the end of the leash. Which is why I would chose to use a prong collar before I get to the last resort stage. Engage the dog. Teach her what you want her to do - with high value treats in a no distraction area. Gradually add in distractions (if she gets too excited you're adding them in too quickly). The prong collar is there to aid you as you teach her what you want so the unwanted behavior doesn't become further entrenched.

[Schaferhunde AKA Sheepdog]

You say Bindy has high prey drive. Would you characterize what she does when she sees an animal or person as head-down, dig in and "pull like a Husky," or does she leap forward and hit the end of the lead, and then bounce? Is the type of pulling different when she sees a person than when she sees another animal? Different when she sees a wild creature than a dog? Does she vocalize? Head up or lowered? Hackles? Wagging? Does she keep a slack lead when there are no animals or people visible?

 

Bindy, pulls like husky. When Bindy see another human on leash, she doesn't pull like when she see another animal.No she docent acting much differnt when she differnt animals. Yes, she whines,& occasionally barks. Bindy shows no leash aggression,&her tail is wagging. Not much, but she does sometimes have slack in Lead

[mum24dog]

Here is an excellent piece on dealing with dogs that chase -

 

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/

[Pam Wolf]

As for the type of collar, the tool depends on the dog, and the trainer. Personally I prefer to be proactive and teach the dog to not pull first and with distractions.Consistancy is the key. Any time the dog pulls it gets rewarded by getting closer to what it wants, try going away from what the dog wants. A front hook harness may help but again the effectiveness of any tool depends on the person using it.

[Journey]

Prong collars and ecollars have the same problem. The handler needs to be an expert trainer to even consider using it. A prong collar that is adjusted so that it won't tighten can damage the trachea if the dog lunges or just pulls hard, and adjusted correctly is usually too harsh a correction for a BC. They work great on breeds of dogs that are known for having tough necks, like gods and Pits. Like every "training device" they are not a substitute for good basic training.

 

Please explain why one has to be an expert to use a prong collar. And I am very curious as to how the tracheae is damaged with a prong? With a choke collar, yes, I agree damage *can* occur. With a prong though how?