Urban Borders Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Pretty sad tonight. This weekend will be my girl's last trial ever, only a year after she started. She only has her AD and AAD, could have gone so much farther except for one thing: her A-frame. She doesn't knock bars, she doesn't miss weave entries, she rarely has an of-course, and we've largely fixed her dogwalk. But she cannot do an A-frame, despite the use of about 4 different methods of training running contacts over the course of a year (the only one we haven't tried is the box method). I even pulled her out of competition twice, for 3 months and 4 months, in order to try and fix this. I've asked/been helped by multiple instructors, both at our club and elsewhere, how to teach her to extend coming down the frame. She used to slow down as she approached the apex, and sort of step over it. Now, she extends over the apex, lands about a slat and a half down the downside, and then does a short stride to the slat above the yellow, then off. Depending on the day, she gets a foot in; at home or practice, she usually gets a foot in. She's not bailing; she drives towards the bottom, head down. But she comes off right above the yellow. I should share two things: she was originally trained (she crept the whole way down) with a stopped 2o/2o, and she has partially torn both cruciates. The 2o/2o looked excruciating, all that creeping, and I would rather retire her than go back to it. I've debated many a time whether this is physical. Maybe it is, but she is a 20" dog that jumps 22" and even 26" without issue, and that extends flat to the ground flying down our steep hills at home. Somehow, she has never understood how to just let go, trust, and give in to gravity coming down a frame. Anyways, this is a longshot, but if anyone has ever had an issue with a dog not extending down a frame, and has any suggestions, I'd like to try them. Also, if anyone knows any really good trainers that would be of help with this, even if I could only speak to them over the phone or via email, I'd love to know. Or any useful listserves I could post to. I'm still going to retire her (even though she qualified for Nationals after only a few trials this year), because trialing has become so upsetting for me (because of that frame) and she knows I'm not having fun. We'll play at home, I guess. But I'd still like to fix this, if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenotri Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Wow. Why make a permanent decision now? I guess it really depends how much you enjoy running her & how much she enjoys running with you. Surely there is a way to fix this. I trained the first half of the box method with my girls & had a lot of fun doing it. Why not try it? My 6yo, is probably facing retirement too. Hers is related to an injury that will probably recur doing agility. I would give just about anything to be able to keep running her with no resulting pain...even if it meant she missed her AF for the rest of her life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Borders Posted February 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Oh dear, just to be clear, I would never stop running her. It will just be in practice, probably without a frame. She loves to run more anything in the world. But I am going to retire her from competition (probably should have been clearer about that), because in all honesty that's mostly about me. She enjoys running in competitions, and I think it's been good for her confidence and focus, but I know I'm not a good enough person to sit around all weekend, spend alot of money, and never, ever qualify (well, except in Jumpers or maybe Steeplechase). I could take her out and practice with her, and not frivol away the whole weekend over it (I have few enough weekends off as is). But gosh darnit, I hate to quit, and this not fixing her frame feels like quitting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 First off, most people that pull from trialling to retrain take at least a year to do the retraining, and stick with one method. Bouncing back and forth between methods for 3 - 4 months would certainly lead to confusion, because the dog hasn't had a chance to learn just one new method, with a new command. You can't fix "scram" for example, but you might be able to train "climb". It takes a long time to train an alternate behaviour to become a default, instead of the original behaviour you are trying to extinguish. As well, I take it you are trialing in USDAA from the titles you listed. You can still compete in jumpers and gamblers and snooker. In the last two - you can just avoid the AFrame, and in the meantime you devote the time to retrain the AFrame. As well, you may want to consider entering in performance class as the frame is set lower, and that might make a difference in the long run. If you enjoy running her, and she enjoys it, you can certainly continue to compete with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Since she's had health issues (cruciates), I'd really check her shoulders since there may be compensation issues. When my older girl hurt her shoulder she started having issues going down the Aframe (slowed, short-strided, crept), but was fine elsewhere. You can still compete without the aframe. Check other venues as well, as they offer lower and non-slatted aframes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I've debated many a time whether this is physical. Maybe it is, but she is a 20" dog that jumps 22" and even 26" without issue, and that extends flat to the ground flying down our steep hills at home. What checks have you had done to find out if iut is physical? Just because she can do one thing doesn't mean that doing something else using different muscles and joint stresses won't hurt. One of mine was very reluctant to jump on a few occasions and seemed to be losing confidence and yet she was like your dog - absolutely fine to run in real life. Noone could find anything until I had a chiropractor check her over. Even she wasn't sure but thought she detected a little niggle between the shoulderblades, did her stuff and the dog has been fine since. But if it isn't physical, then this First off, most people that pull from trialling to retrain take at least a year to do the retraining, and stick with one method. Bouncing back and forth between methods for 3 - 4 months would certainly lead to confusion, because the dog hasn't had a chance to learn just one new method, with a new command. You can't fix "scram" for example, but you might be able to train "climb". It takes a long time to train an alternate behaviour to become a default, instead of the original behaviour you are trying to extinguish. Not necessarily pull out for a year, but stick with one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Yup, I would just play Jumpers and Gamblers and skip standard classes. I'm sorry you are having these problems. Good for you that you are more worried about your dogs welfare than anything else. Have you tried doing the running contact training with the target boxes etc? I know theres some videos out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooddogs74 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Of course if you feel your dog if not comfortable going down the a-frame, I think it is great that you are not doing it with her. But I would like to say I was training the running a-frame with the box and getting frustrated as well. My dog did not want to extend all the way and he is very healthy. I probably could have continued to work it but I am not a terribly patient person. I had a nice four on the floor on the dog walk and one day put my target in front of the a-frame and he was like, thank you! He began offering that behavior immediately. Now whether or not it is because he is more mentally clear with it or physically more comfortable I don't know, but I took it to competition this weekend and I was happy with it. So of course if you think your dog is physically limited, by all means, do not do the aframe, but my dog seems very comfortable with this type of contact we have now and I think I will just stick with it. I measured the time difference between the two and it was 1/4 second. So nothing, unless I am looking at very serious competition which I am not. Here is what I had this weekend, with a bit quicker release than I am using in training. (The run with the knocked bar got a nice long hold on the ground!) and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I feel for you. I have a dog with what sounds like the exact same behavior with regard to the yellow. He seems to know EXACTLY where the yellow starts and jumps off just before it. (I think I should train him as a dock diving dog where it is a desired behavior to jump off as close as possible to the end of the dock. ) He also started out with a 2020 - where he resembled a lawn dart. He would fly over the top of the AF to land in a beautiful 2020. Ouch! He did suffer a shoulder injury (chasing a ball in the backyard) which may have been exacerbated by his 2020 behavior. Now we are trying to accomplish a running contact (a la Silvia Trkman) and not having a lot of success. I agree with mum24dog and ask if you have had an ortho vet check out your dog to make sure he is sound. I also agree with the need to train one method as consistently as possible to give it a good chance for success. One well-known national handler (at least well known in NADAC) came to my area where I was able to take a private. We discussed the RC - of which she is not a fan. At the time of discussion, it was her view that some long-strided dogs will never have a consistent RC. Well, I have been quite adamant about training a RC because of my dog's past shoulder issue, but I am now wondering if she is right. Regardless, I am not giving up but am really cutting back on trialing. I bring him out once every 3 or 4 months to see if he has improved with his contacts and so far, no. He shows improvement at home, but the behavior falls apart in a trial situation. But to be fair, other behaviors get a little sloppy when he trials because he is so adrenaline-charged and doesn't know how to control it. I don't have any words of wisdom other than to say not to give up as she sounds like an awesome agility dog. Just be patient and keep working on it at home until you feel she is ready for a trial - but be prepared that she may not be successful the first time or two and that more home-work will be needed. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 This may or may not help, but Dexter was a terrible creeper on the Frame for some time. He'd slam up it and sail the apex and then creep, creep creep down the other side. He started creeping the dog walk too. The two things I did to fix it were to put a 4 foot board off my deck (which is less than 2' high) and run him across the deck and down the almost flat plank into his quick release. The faster he went, the faster he got his ball which I threw for him the SECOND he hit the contact zone. It didn't take too long before he was whipping down it as fast as he could and not worrying about the angle so much. This translated pretty easily to the dogwalk, but he was still a bit creepy on the Frame. The other thing I started doing was playing tug with him in the contact zone of the Frame - as long as he held his back two feet on the contact, we played bouncy tug very enthusiastically at the bottom. Then I raised the criteria to only offering the tug if he came down for it quickly. If he creeped - oops, no tug. If he came flying in for it, lots of tug! What I was trying to do was make the bottom of the obstacle really exciting and fun, and give him a good reason to get there as quickly as he could. He's coming down really fast now, and I still have a quick release 2o2o to keep him motivated to come down it as fast as he can. Spring has a natural running contact on the Frame and she figuring out how to run the dogwalk (we have lapses still where she worries the walk is the teeter, which she still fears, and it can mess up her stride) and I miss the brief pause of the 2o2o! ha ha. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I am slightly confused by the people who say keep trialing just not in STD. Isn't their an aframe in steeplechase and the grand prix. Also isn't their one sometimes in gamblers? Not sure about snookers. Haven't played it in over 3 years. I guess my thought would be why should they not do std if they would still be subject to the aframe in the other classes? Have you tried a lower aframe? As in jump in the performance group? Sorry I don't have any other suggestions. I haven't had to deal with creeping on contacts. Lol creeping on tables yes! Creeping on start stays yes. Contacts? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 The two things I did to fix it were to put a 4 foot board off my deck (which is less than 2' high) and run him across the deck and down the almost flat plank into his quick release. The faster he went, the faster he got his ball which I threw for him the SECOND he hit the contact zone. It didn't take too long before he was whipping down it as fast as he could and not worrying about the angle so much. This translated pretty easily to the dogwalk, but he was still a bit creepy on the Frame. RDM Your timing on the ball toss has to be better than mine. Since I am trying to teach a RC, I also used a ball for reward and tried to time the toss with hitting the contact zone. My dog would turn his head towards me to look for the ball even as he was running down the ramp. I didn't like that since I wanted him to focus forward. I keep thinking about how I can get the message across to my dog that he has to step in the contact, NOT jump over it. I do not blame him. I prefer to believe that I have not yet found the magic strategy to deliver that message into his brain. I have not yet seen the 'light bulb moment'. He will do a beautiful RC on a lowered A-frame for about 4-5 attempts, then, for a reason I have yet to determine, he will go back to a jump over the contact. I like to believe (but I may be wrong) that my reinforcement timing is quite good so I keep mulling over what i can do better or how I can tweak the training. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Borders Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Thanks SO much for all the suggestions. The suggestions for speeding up stopped contacts...I whole-heartedly second. The person I know with the most reliable, brilliant, super-fast contacts actually has 2o/2o that she trained by doing tug and other fun things in the contact zone. I'm just afraid to do a stopped on my dog's frame because of her knees. Need to work that on her dogwalk, will have to try out the tennis ball trick. She did well, even without a functional frame, at the trial this past weekend...Q'd in 5/7 titling runs, placed in Jumpers (OK, so sorry, little bit proud here She's such a joy to handle. So, I played around with the box method a little...built a box, put it in the yard, taught her to run through it from whatever angle I sent her. She picked that up in a night. Then put the box on a progressively steeper hill, she got that. Then today I put it on our frame, at 5' and then 5.5'...flawless RC. What the heck. It just clicked, or something. She did two strides down, intentionally adjusting to leap right into the box. Of course, then she played like a maniac with the foster dog I got in today, and now she is a bit lame and has a touch of stifle effusion. Fail. Figures, MAYBE we finally fix the frame after literally a year and a half, and then she messes up her knee again. Poor pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Borders Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 P.S.--how do you fix creeping tables? Her table used to be awful, now it's OK, but it's not super fast. She prefers leaping things. Like jumps. And contacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Different terms usage I think? Cressa has been creeping while on the table! As in I say down and her butts in the air or she crouches in a position to launch her little self off it. She did get bad at this last trial. And literally creep off the table at the g in G-O. I was NOT happy with that. So I've been proofing the best I can on her table in practice. Will see if it carries over to the trial area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I would second trying a stopped contact on the ground for the Aframe. When I still had hopes of my older dog continuing his agility career I started his contacts all over and trained 4 on the floor (standing not lying) as he was never comfortable with a 2O2O (he has mild hip dysplasia), I did not want to do running as he is not the type of dog to enjoy training over and over again. I used the box method and a hoop at the bottom of the Aframe so he would not jump. I also lowered the Aframe to almost flat, and gradually raised it using milk crates etc, until we finally used the chains at the lowest height. After a few weeks he thought this was the most fun, and I went from a dog that camped at the top of the Aframe, ambled his way down, to dog that came bouncing all the way down. We have trialled once since then and it held up to my husband running his first trial and his second time ever running a course! I should add that he no longer does agility because he thinks agility with me sucks, he is a decent dog when handled by my husband his human. I persuaded the husband to come to a New Years trial just to satisfy a long held theory of mine that he would play agility for him, and I was right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 All what they said! And...not sure where you are located, but if there are NADAC trials anywhere around, there are LOTS of classes to play without A-frames. Plus the A-frame is 5' high, and covered in rubber matting. I think dogs go much faster on it than slatted ones, once they figure out they aren't going to stub toes and it so cushioned. Just a thought... diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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