rushdoggie Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have always believed dogs who are comfortable in crates have an advantage because if they have to be confined due to illness, injury or emergency they are not stressed out about it. I make my dogs (except for the senile old one) occasionally sleep in their (comfortable and filled with a memory foam cushion) crate or spend an hour in their crate (with a chewie) while I am busy. They are all very relaxed, comfortable and unstressed in their crates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogs & Dogs Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I live with housemates. Over the years, people have moved in and out as they graduate college, move in with boy/girlfriends, etc. Upon interviewing someone new, they inevitably comment on the crate in the living room, to which I reply that Kit must be crated when no one's home to prevent her from eating every morsel of food in the house. Every person so far has expressed their discomfort with this situation. That is, until they move in and actually see how it works. As soon as I start getting ready to leave the house (putting on a coat, shoes, bike helmet, backpack, whatever), Kit bolts for her crate and then sits there staring me down until I find a treat toy. She watches me stuff it, and then lights into it. I swear she doesn't even look up when I close the crate door and leave the house. After seeing that, the housemates generally change their minds about how cruel crating is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have always believed dogs who are comfortable in crates have an advantage because if they have to be confined due to illness, injury or emergency they are not stressed out about it. Exactly. People who refust to use crates ever are setting their dogs up for additional stress in situations (like at the vet) where stress is already high. Even if it goes against a person's nature to crate a dog, crate training can be *important* for the safety of a dog in situations where containment is necessary or required. This is especially true of dogs that people do sports with. I imagine it's the lucky who never have dogs that get injured playing sports or working. I don't know how people "crate rest" dogs that have never learned to relax in a crate. But then again, maybe the vast majority of dogs never need anything like that. I know I wouldn't take the chance that my dog would never need confinement. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Not about crates, but kennels: I had a visit once from a future puppy owner who brought her friend with her for support her friend brought her two dogs with her. I told the lady that mommy with her puppies is in the house so her dogs can't go in, and they can't run loose unsupervised in the yard because I have livestock, but they can have the use of my kennel: 9 feet 6 feet, roofed, shaded, with wooden walls, water dishes and wooden floor. She said, "My dogs will NEVER be in a kennel." I repeated that the house and the yard is out of the question. So she huffed and put her dogs...in her car. And there they stayed throughout the visit . My concern for livestock drew a complete blank in her brain too . Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Maja, Yep, don't you know that "it's all about me"? It's an interesting phenomenon, and definitely a different mindset that thinks stuck in the car is better then in a nice run.... The lack of concern for your livestock is not at all surprising, sadly. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I repeated that the house and the yard is out of the question. So she huffed and put her dogs...in her car. And there they stayed throughout the visit . Huffing and puffing aside , I see no problem with this choice. My own dogs love the car. I would choose to put my dogs in the car (unless heat made that unsafe) before putting them in a kennel, simply because it is familiar to them, they are comfortable there, and they like to be there. In fact, I often refer to it as a "big crate". I wouldn't object to a kennel pe se as a place to park a dog for a couple of hours, but if my own car were an option, I would most likely go with that. I crate out of the car all the time at trials and it works very well. (Just to be clear, that is when weather permits) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I don't think the issue is at all the choice of her own car or someone's kennel - I think it's the huff-and-puff about having to put her dogs up because of the mother dog and the livestock present. Some people just don't having boundaries put on themselves or their animals or their children, no matter how reasonable. We see it all the time here - rude dogs at the dog park, etc. If the situation was right, I would leave my dogs in my own car rather than someone else's kennel, but I hope I'd have the courtesy and manners to not make a fuss over someone's very reasonable request and be grateful for her kind offer of her facility. That, I think, was the primary issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yes, the issue definitely was the attitude. I see no problem with keeping a dog in the car if the weather is appropriate. It's hard to convey the kennel-hate in the woman's tone of voice, and the brick wall of why the dogs can't run around unsupervised in the yard or yap at my moma-dog in the house. I was taken by surprise by such an unpleasant attitude, since usually my biggest problem is keeping people from trying to pick up after their dogs in my open pasture . But the thing that struck me was this pre-judgment car-good -- kennel-evil. (I could have lent her a crate too, but that would have been even "eviler"). Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dex BC Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Never really thought twice about crate training...we have crate trained each of our 4 dogs and my family has been doing it since the late 80`s before it was even popular. My grandmother believed very strongly in using a crate for the many reasons described in this thread. Dexter loves his crate, it is his ``house`` and he often sleeps in it with the door open when we are home. It is also his ``Safe`` place that he goes to when he is stressed say from a thunderstorm, new people in the house, etc. If we are out for more than an hour we usually crate him to keep him out of trouble. All we say is ``go to you house`` and he runs right in and lays down. In terms of night time we give him the option of sleeping in our room on the floor or the end of the bed but he often ends deciding to sleep in his crate. If a crate is used properly and not as a form of punishment it can be a great training tool and a portable home for your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serena+Eluane B.C. Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Well, crating actually really depends on the dog's nature/temperament and the lifestyle of the owner...For 3D animators working full-time, and trekking back and forth, it's important for dogs to have full reign of the house when they are away. Eluane has always had irregular hours of sleep and playtime. Yes, going full-blast playtime at 4:00 a.m, me dropping off to sleep, getting just refreshened up to be "presentable" at work at 5:00 a.m. then rushing back to work at 6:00 a.m., going back when the project was complete at 2:00 p.m. to "sleep"...so has Eluane ever freaked being put in her crate during agility trials, never ever. She gets to see a whole arena of crated dogs, so B.Cs are smart enough to figure out the appropriateness of various situations. What she doesn't like is being left alone in the car. Eluane will literally crawl on my lap, her whole body crammed into my lap and the driving wheel, if I leave her in the car during agility trials while cleaning up my crate. It takes me awhile to clean my crate up so if the weather is beautifully cool I'll leave her in the car. But from now on, I don't do ever this, if it takes me too long to clean my crate. One is not supposed to drive with one's pup in one's lap, and...uh, you can imagine a stupid Mama who just can't say "no" to one's pup even with the seatbelt on. People would be hauling me off to jail with good reason (sigh).... As for crating with injuries, I think B.Cs do understand when they are not feeling too well. But Julie is definitely right! in that all dogs do need crate-training initially... But whether we choose to keep them there, is truly a matter of a dog's temperament and an owner's individual lifestyle. Had not Eluane been initially crate-trained, she probably would not have turned out to be such a good, manageable pup that I could entrust in the house. Maja, sheesh, that woman definitely has a few things missing in the brain, especially since you had such lovely alternatives like the open kennel. Hostile attitude is never acceptable. And she is a guest, for heaven's sake, and you have valid concerns for your livestock too. I would never let a guest dog run unfettered either unless it was indeed a very well-mannered and obedient dog, and even so, as a guest, I too get nervous and want my dog to be in a safe place where it won't be attacked (livestock or other dogs not liking Eluane). It goes both ways and you offered very nice solutions. Some dogs like staying in cars, so if she chose the car, fine, but not the nasty attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Well, crating actually really depends on the dog's nature/temperament and the lifestyle of the owner...For 3D animators working full-time, and trekking back and forth, it's important for dogs to have full reign of the house when they are away. I'm hoping this is just an error of translation, because the occupation of the owner has no bearing on if a dog should have full reign of a house. Whats important is for dogs to have adequate interaction of their owner and be safe when left alone, and if the dog is able to e safe then having free reign is fine. If your dog gets into things and damages them and/or puts their own health at risk by chewing up stuff, they should be confined when left alone regardless of what the owner's occupation is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm hoping this is just an error of translation, because the occupation of the owner has no bearing on if a dog should have full reign of a house. Agreed. People choose to give dogs full reign or not, but occupation doesn't really matter in that choice. Heck, I now work from home, but when I leave the house certain of my dogs need to be crated either for their own safety (e.g., the epileptic dog, who if she had a seizure while I was gone could be attacked by the rest of the pack) or because I value my belongings (the geriatric dog who still chews stuff even at her advanced age). Once I left the house for an hour or two and forgot to put the then-4-month-old puppy in her crate. All was well when I came home, but I can guarantee you I wouldn't look at that lucky break and decide that a puppy needs free reign. It's about what works best for the individual dog *and* the owner, not the fact that you have one sort of job and someone else has another. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 As for crating with injuries, I think B.Cs do understand when they are not feeling too well Umm, that has not been my experience. At all. I've had dogs 24 hrs post spay/neuter surgery wanting to run around like nothing had happened. Dogs who are practically three legged suddenly forget that it really hurts to use a limb. High drive dogs tend to overlook the pain to fulfill their drive. Had not Eluane been initially crate-trained, she probably would not have turned out to be such a good, manageable pup that I could entrust in the house. It's her nature. If it had been in her nature to eat the drapes or chew computer equipment she probably would have been crate trained! Like many of the others here, crates give me an incredible amount of flexibility with my dogs. I have no issue taking them practically anywhere because they're fine just hanging out in a crate if need be. It also gives me peace of mind - dogs are in a crate or kennel, things will be just fine when I get back. Not every dog needs one, but every dog I have in the future will sure be used to one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Putting the dogs in the car reminds me of the time Darci, Robin, and a couple others were at my house working dogs. Darci's dogs were in her truck loose. Every time someone started to work a dog, one of Darci's dogs would lay on the horn. Later she discovered that some serious chewing had gone on in the cab of the truck too! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Putting the dogs in the car reminds me of the time Darci, Robin, and a couple others were at my house working dogs. Darci's dogs were in her truck loose. Every time someone started to work a dog, one of Darci's dogs would lay on the horn. Later she discovered that some serious chewing had gone on in the cab of the truck too! J. On the steering wheel? :D I've used a car as a giant crate before too. Took Missy and Kipp along to a family wedding 900 miles away because my regular dog sitters were all attending the wedding. The dogs snoozed in the Jeep during the wedding and reception (couldn't leave them by themselves at the hotel and it was a late afternoon wedding and the temps were in the 30s so no weather worries). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogs & Dogs Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Does anyone else crate in the car? I don't think I'd leave Kit loose in there for fear that she'd jump the back seat and help herself to any food that she could find (hard candy, emergency granola bar, etc.). I'm also a fan of car vs. strange place, whenever possible. The only time I've ever seen Kit experience SA is when she's crated in a strange place and no one's around. I can crate in the car or the house with no problem whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Out of laziness I once "crated" my sweet doggie at a clinic inside my beloved CRV. The result was chewed up upholstery. I did want a keen dog didn't I? She was, I suppose, still a puppy then, but I don't take the risk now. I should have trained her better in staying alone, but it has been a bit of a failure mostly because it's so rarely that she has to be somewhere else than I do. She is the type of dog that lays against the door of the bathroom when I am inside. Now I put her in the car in the crate whenever needed. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I have a van rather than a car, but generally no one rides loose in there; all are crated. At my destination, some may be tied to the van so they can crawl under for shade, but any dog that might chew my vehicle in frustration (or do anything else silly) stays in a crate. I appreciate the fact that my dogs don't misbehave while I'm working a dog, say, while setting out. It allows me to (usually) park close to where I'm working, which enables me to let dogs out to pee at regular intervals during the day (just an aside). We'll see how that works with Kestrel, who seems to have some self-control issues when sheep are being worked nearby (though usually I can park the van in such a way that the dogs--except those tied out--can't really see the action). When I first brought Maia home I didn't have a big enough crate, so I let her ride loose in the van. She chewed a seat belt in half.... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I think all dogs should be crate trained. Then you have options. Without the training there are very few options and one day you might need it. I crate train all my dogs as pups. Then they are let loose in the house as I see fit. Haven't had one yet that didn't graduate out of one but still have dogs that love to sleep in them. We call them "hidey holes". People seem to understand that mentality better than crates. In thunder storms if I can't be right there with them they go in the crates by themselves. I do use my car as a giant crate. Thank doG I"ve never found anything chewed. I also tie them outside of the car it I'm going to work dogs, I can correct for barking easier than if I have to go open the car door. Depending on where I go, I've gotten some nasty remarks about tying my dogs out in general, I'll use fence lines, car tires(my car) or where ever I can find that I can see them. People think it's cruel. Funny usually those people have crates in their cars, so why the issue that I tie mine out? I did find Dew lounging on the hood of my car once at a trial. Needless to say the tie outs got shorter after that! Dew thinks under the basement steps was built just for her as a huge hidey hole. It's her "den of relaxation" She's now got a snuggly dog bed under there but I usually find her on the cool concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Does anyone else crate in the car? I don't think I'd leave Kit loose in there for fear that she'd jump the back seat and help herself to any food that she could find (hard candy, emergency granola bar, etc.). I have two semi-permanent crates in the back of my car. That get used a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Does anyone else crate in the car? Yes. I drive a Mountaineer so that's not hard to do which I'm glad. One of these years, when it's time to get another vehicle, it will also hold crates. In fact, I carry a measuring tape in my pocketbook on the off chance we ever stop to 'window shop'. (Apparently, I'm not the only one who does that. One time DH & I pulled into a plant nursery parking lot. A lady was loading up her vehicle and we offered to help her. I liked the inside of her crossover and asked her if I could measure it. She said sure and pulled a measuring tape out of her pocketbook. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I crate in the car when it's feasible (three dogs in a Subaru wagon means it often isn't) and use seatbelts for travelling otherwise. I never used a crate before Celt but Megan came happily crate-trained, and we use them for practicality. When I have just Celt and Megan, I don't mind leaving them loose in the house for a workday. But with Dan in the mix and his love of playing with Megan, we use crates for anything but very short times without supervision. Sometimes, I leave them all out for up to three hours but they seem just as content, are safer, and my house is safe when they are crated. This comes from someone who thought crating must be "cruel". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Speaking of crates..... Ugh! DH knocked a glass off the countertop a few minutes ago. Jake is quirky when it comes to the vacuum cleaner. He likes to stand in front of it when I'm vaccuming. When I tell him to move, he then goes and lays on the cord. (Silly boy) I told him to stay in the living room while we picked up the big pieces (JJ was already resting in an open crate and Josie was outside) and then crated him before I pulled the vacuum out. I love dog crates. They can bring peace of mind when you least expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serena+Eluane B.C. Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 oops, sorry folks about the mistranslation. What I meant is that indeed there are Border Collies who are non-chewers, and that when they are left alone they don't get separation anxiety, their temperament can handle being left unattended in the house. As usual, I notice I need to be a little more precise with my words... Some B.Cs can be indeed trained not to need their crate, but always puppies should be crated IMHO. And I do think owners should IMHO, train a pup and young dog first through the crate, this is what I was agreeing with Julie on. Crate training is very important when the dog is young, especially. Phasing out the crate is a very gradual process, and there will always be those B.Cs that need their crates or enjoy their crates. Every dog is individual. My choice not to leave Eluane in her crate for any time longer than 3 hours was a personal choice and her preference. And I soon found out that crates were completely unnecesary for her save for agility trials and for operations/health situations. It's always been that way for me, just a personal preference, nothing to do with the way others approach the crating. Eluane does wonderful completely uncrated. She is happy, I am happy. Her life was never endangered either. When she was spayed, she was tired and in pain, she was content sleeping in her crate and every B.C. should be crated initially after operations to make sure they are rested and have minimal movement. I just meant many B.Cs understand "rest time" and that it isn't "punishment" when we haven't used the crate as punishment. Maralynn, lol, on the jeep being a giant crate. My friend loooovees his brand new Jeep, and he proudly says his Dogs love the Jeep too. It's got all the bells and whistles that he loves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 On the subject of crates in vehicles...I didn't, once upon a time...now I do! Came across a "show dog" handler, with six dogs of different breeds, from Old English Sheepdog and Yellow Lab to long-haired dachsund and Eskimo. She was in a van, all dogs in crates, pulling a 28' travel trailer. Van blew a tire, rolled the van 1.5 times, destroyed the trailer. She was wearing her seat belt, dogs all in the van though not tied down - and everyone was OK! Lab got out in the wreck, and ran around, "Wow! That was interesting! Where's the ball?" LOL. Oh yeah, there were 2 or 3 cats in a crate too. We ended up taking 2 to a vet, with what turned out to be just general soreness from rolling around. Loose dogs in that case would have been dead. My Element has two relatively permanently installed crates (if I ever have a flat, I'm just calling the tow truck!), and my RV has one. With some regret on my part, my old girl has never liked being crated in a moving vehicle, though she's fine in one in the house or at agility trials. Dogs also occasionally get crated when workers come to the house - easier than making sure workmen don't accidentally let them out! Yes, crates. Yes, yes, yes. Hidey-holes are OK too! diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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