roscoe11 Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 I am looking at a litter that was born on the 15th. One of the pups has an all white head. I have read that white head border collies are more susceptible to hearing and eye problems. is this true? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yes and maybe or no It depends on many variables. Are the ears all white? Is the breeder going to BAER test? What are the sire and dam like and what or who is behind them? Any research done on lineage? Any previous issues with hearing in the line? Horizontal and vertical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 The puppy has a black spot on the top of his head and it looks like his ears are black. The sire of the pup is one of Dawn Boyce's dogs Gage (http://www.colliegirl.com/). The dam is Angela Raby's dog Kate. Angela is from TN, she works her dogs in herding and agility. As I look over the Certification of Registration papers for the two dogs I realize I have no idea what I am looking at. I know it's the lineage, but other then that who knows. The sire of Angela Raby's dog Kate, is Lanky from possum hollow farms http://www.possumhollowfarms.com/InMemory.htm It sounds like it was a good dog. The Dam for Kate was Lock-eye Dixie http://lockeyebc.com/dixie.html On Dawn Boyce's dogs Gage side: The sire is Oak Ridge Luke and the dam is Jada. I can find much Luke but Allen Hickenbottom from Oak Ridge farms sound like he was successful http://www.sheepdogfinalsblog.com/allen-hickenbottom here is Jada info http://www.colliegirl.com/d_jada.php For the puppies: here the sire - gage's info http://www.colliegirl.com/d_gage.php I can't find anything on the dam but I have seen her work and she looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Is the pup located near to you or will it be shipped long distance? I would be inclined to ask if BAER test is possible prior to placement. It might not be possible...it wouldn't for me as there is no testing close (3-5 hrs away). If not possible, they you need to consider the cost of shipping (Hi? Low??) and whether you could BAER test the pup when it arrives. You could ask the breeder to guarantee hearing. If you take the pup prior to testing and it comes up deaf, you need to be prepared to deal with returning the pup or other emotionally charged decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 What are your goals for your puppy? Pet? Sport? Working livestock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Sport. I would love to work livestock but it's not really practical. i live in the middle of Atlanta. It's a long ways away to find any sheep. Anyway i want the dog to be able see and hear no matter what we do. I guess I will ask for a BAER test. I don't have to pick the white headed pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Well, then the answer is simple....don't take the white head without a BAER test. Many many white heads have perfect hearing but as long as there is a question and you are most certain you need a dog that hears and returning the pup would be difficult....then either pick another pup, another litter or require a BAER test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't much care for the Lockeye kennel, as the breeder seems to have an awful lot of bitches and stud dogs, and a lot of pups every year. But anyhow, that's just part of the pup's bloodline. I'd also worry about the white head, so I'll second the cautions others have given you. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 If the ears are black, is there a concern for the hearing? I own a dog with a white face, but the ears and top/back of the head are black, and she has no hearing problems. Some photos of her below so you can see the amount of white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 There is a weak correlation between congenital deafness and excessive white or blue eyes. A hypothesis was told to me that seems to fit my personal experiences and the published data on congenital deafness; I have modified this hypothesis to include the data on blue eyes. The hypothesis is that if any pup in the litter has excessive white on the head (white ears) or blue eyes (especially 2 blue eyes), all pups in that litter (including the traditionally marked pups) have increased risk of congenital deafness. We have raised 3 unilaterally deaf pups (not all our pups). We were able to identify the deaf pups and confirmed by BAER testing. Of these pups, 2 were traditionally marked (brown eyes and no excessive white on the head) but all came from litters where littermates had these markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnottyClarence Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I have a split face who is unilaterally deaf--white ear (with a couple of faint black spots on it)works fine per BAER test, black ear does not work at all. Only two in the litter, very darkly marked brother two working ears. Parents checked out good hearing. Back on line four or five of both pedigrees Gichrist Spot--she looks just like him from pictures. Just adding to the general anectdotal data out there. She's a fine little dog, has trouble at a distance, will turn her head to look for the sound, losing contact with the sheep. Startled a bit during the little bit of agility she did, if something came up on the non-hearing side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Diana A. your dog has a lot more black around the ears and on the top of his head then the puppy I am looking at. Literally just his ears and a small round circle on the top of his head are black. How much does it cost to have the BAER test performed. Thanks for all your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Roscoe11, are you locked into this pup? Like others have said there is cause for concern, not just the white head but the bottom of the pedigree makes me pause as well. BAER testing depends on your area and access. You could check now *before* and know what you are possibly getting into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've been taught the same by neurologists; if any pup in the litter has a lot of white on the head, they are ALL at increased risk of being deaf. The overall risk is quite small, but should not be ignored. BAER testing costs between $40 and $75 at most hospitals I've called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've been taught the same by neurologists; if any pup in the litter has a lot of white on the head, they are ALL at increased risk of being deaf. The overall risk is quite small, but should not be ignored.I've seen no data to ascertain the increased risk to the other littermates. Based upon my personal experience the risk is equivalent since we've seen marked and unmarked pups that are both normal and deaf in the same litter. We do have published epidemiological data that indicates the risk of deafness based upon eye color and excessive white on the head. 2 blue eyes: 24% 1 blue eye: 9% excessive white on head: 36% Prevalence of Unilateral and Bilateral Deafness in Border Collies and Association with Phenotype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've been taught the same by neurologists; if any pup in the litter has a lot of white on the head, they are ALL at increased risk of being deaf. The overall risk is quite small, but should not be ignored. BAER testing costs between $40 and $75 at most hospitals I've called. I am not necessarily locked in to this litter (it’s a long story), but I have been waiting for these pups for a while now. I also will get my pick of the litter, which is also appealing. If i pick one of the dogs and have it tested I could always return it, but by then litter will be gone. I have been looking for a pup for quite a while now, who new it would be this hard to find a good dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 The article that was linked says you can do BAER as early as 6 weeks, so before the age the pup would go home. Would it be possibe to request the breeder do the test before you make you final selection? Or, if it's close enough, ask if you could take the pup for the test before they're ready to go home? I have had situations before where I didn't have first pick and my pick had to wait on another person making their choice at 6 or 7 weeks of age - hopefully the breeder will be willing to work with you on this and withhold assigning other pups to people until the test is done so you still get your pick. Also, if they're only 3 weeks now, it may turn out that this one isn't the personality you want anyway. It's so hard to tell when they're so young and are basically in 'eat and sleep' mode. The last pup I got (the white faced one) I actually had originally picked out the traditionally marked tri as my favorite, but I told the breeder to tell me who had the personality I wanted and that looks didn't matter and I wasn't going to get too locked onto a particular pup. It turned out that the white faced one was the right one for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Absolutely Diana A. I am far from making up my mind. Really the only reason that the white head one is on my list is that he is the first born and the biggest. At this point i am trying to decide if I should dismiss him out right or keep him as an option and see if getting the BAER test done is a possibility. I will know more in a few more weeks I guess. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 We have raised 3 unilaterally deaf pups (not all our pups). We were able to identify the deaf pups and confirmed by BAER testing. Of these pups, 2 were traditionally marked (brown eyes and no excessive white on the head) but all came from litters where littermates had these markings. That is very interesting to me. I have heard of a direct correlation between a white eared phenotype and deafness. Just for clarification, when you say "all came from litters where littermates had these markings", are you referring to the traditional markings of the unilaterally deaf pups, or the white headed pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luv2napp Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 This is very interesting. I just thought it was the white on white merles that were deaf. But, ever since adopting Danny, my husband and I both remark on how when we talk to him, he'll turn his head the other way and listen, like he doesn't know where the sound is coming from. Sometimes I have to call his name a couple of times before he responds. Now I'm wondering if maybe he's deaf in one ear. Not that it matters, but curious now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Just for clarification, when you say "all came from litters where littermates had these markings", are you referring to the traditional markings of the unilaterally deaf pups, or the white headed pups? The litters I've seen with deaf pups had pups with a mix of markings, traditional marked pups (no white on ears and no blue eyes) and pups with white on the ears and/or blue eyes. In these litters there were deaf pups that were traditionally marked and ones that were marked with the tell tale markings (excessive white on head inclusing ears and/or two blue eyes). To be clear the number of litters I've seen that had deaf pups is a very small sample; not really large enough to draw any reliable conclusions. But enough to make me go hmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 This is very interesting. I just thought it was the white on white merles that were deaf. But, ever since adopting Danny, my husband and I both remark on how when we talk to him, he'll turn his head the other way and listen, like he doesn't know where the sound is coming from. Sometimes I have to call his name a couple of times before he responds. Now I'm wondering if maybe he's deaf in one ear. Not that it matters, but curious now. This behavior is a very typical one for unilaterally deaf dogs (looking in the wrong direction from where the sound is coming from). The dogs do learn to compensate for being deaf in one ear to the point where you can't even tell unless you carefully watch their behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 So this pup has enough white in its head to be of a concern. It looks like the right ear is black but the left ear has some white on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 We do have published epidemiological data that indicates the risk of deafness based upon eye color and excessive white on the head. 2 blue eyes: 24% 1 blue eye: 9% excessive white on head: 36% Prevalence of Unilateral and Bilateral Deafness in Border Collies and Association with Phenotype Mark, I'm familiar with this study, but I've never been able to square its conclusions with my real life experience. 36% seems to me a preposterous overestimate of the prevalence of deafness in border collies with "excessively white heads" (defined as "subjectively estimated as more than 50% of the head"). I would need to see those results replicated before I would accept that prevalence estimate. That said, Roscoe, I think it would be realistic to pick the puppy you like, without regard to its markings or eye color, and have it BAER tested at or after 7 weeks of age, with the understanding that your purchase is conditional on the outcome of the test. If the pup does not test deaf at that age, then you can be sure it does not have the type of deafness sometimes associated with white pigmentation or blue eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Eileen, There are several reasons why the data from this study may not match with your real life experiences. (As usual with epidemiological studies the devil is in the details; but this is the only publish data we have). 1. UK dogs 2. Ones taken for BAER testing (samples skewed towards deafness) 3. Retrospective study (authors reviewed BAER results and dog descriptions submitted by Animal Health Trust workers) Below are quotes from the article. Animals: A total of 2597 Border Collies from the United Kingdom. Methods: A retrospective study of Border Collies tested, during 1994–2002, by using brainstem auditory evoked responses. Associations between deafness and phenotypic attributes were assessed by using generalized logistic regression. The BAER test results of 2597 Border Collies presented to the Animal Health Trust (1994–2002) for assessment of their hearing status were evaluated. Of these, 2303 were puppies aged 9 weeks old or younger, and 294 were more than 9 weeks old. An additional 20 dogs who were tested with BAER and found to have impaired hearing were excluded from this study. All dogs were purebred, although not all were registered with the UK Kennel Club. Most puppies were tested, at approximately 6 weeks of age, with their litter mates. Many of the adult dogs were tested before being used for breeding if they had not been tested as a puppy, although some were tested because the owner had become suspicious that the dog had abnormal hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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