Tommy Coyote Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 TC, It's funny though, because I was talking with a friend the other day and we noted that it seems that there are fewer red dogs running in open at trials than there have been in the recent past. That may be just a natural cycle, but I think also a real prejudice still exists against red dogs (a prejudice held by some of the most influential handlers in this country), and that prejudice may well influence what you see in the working world. Red will continue to pop up because it exists in some very important working lines, but there are relatively few red dogs trialing at the top levels. (Two of my red dogs were open trial dogs, but neither was bred--for various reasons--and I don't have any red replacements...). J. People used to think the reds were too weak to be good workers. And maybe there is new prejudice against them in the working world simply because they became so popular in the sports world. Would you show up at a trial with a candy colored dog? I got a red smooth coat in about 1983 and they were really not common at that time. They just turned up every so often because they were the double recessive. Not popular in the working world at all. People really believed they couldn't compete with the black and white dogs. I don't remember ever seeing a merle in the working world back then. Look how common they have become? Then the red dogs started getting popular in the obedience world and some obedience breeders began to actually breed for color. Red and white and merle became the new must haves in the obedience ring. I loved my red dog but I still prefer the black and white dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Tommy, we won't mention Tae Tay was such a good dog - not a good working dog - but a good dog in lots of other ways. I still really miss her. She was such a goof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Color and patten preferences - do people really have those? LOL I actually do love the look of the red Border Collies, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 TC, I will NEVER forget Tae and the super glue incident! Laurae, That is my opinion(s) of anyone who can't figure out how gender differs from colour. And I was polite to let Liz respond in a much nicer way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 There's nothing wrong with have preferences, don't let anyone tell you differently. I'm still waiting for a red smooth prick-eared to come along. ;-) That's what I want too! But I want her to be a petite female to boot. It was supposed to stop me from getting more dogs, if I was holding out for that particular dog. Instead I ended up with a male, black and white rough coated horse. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 It was supposed to stop me from getting more dogs, if I was holding out for that particular dog. Well, that was my thinking in wanting a Kat mini me. Surely some of the ones I currently have will be long gone before a cute little split-face, heavily ticked, red tri, with one prick ear and one jaunty ear comes along (oh, and that tongue!). (Okay, truth is I'd take something close, if not exactly like.) Yeah, that's my story. Just don't check back in with me once Ranger is a couple years older.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Ha ha!! I can't get anymore dogs until my numbers go down through attrition. Of course, Tweed and Piper are *never* allowed to die, so clearly that won't happen for a long, long time. ;-) RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 That's what I want too! But I want her to be a petite female to boot. It was supposed to stop me from getting more dogs, if I was holding out for that particular dog. Instead I ended up with a male, black and white rough coated horse. The reasoning was sound but the will was weak. I think we all have preferences, and we all enjoy dogs with distinctive looks. I mean look at the size of Lone's fan club here! And that does NOT mean that we disagree with a sound working breeding philosophy. I once heard Anna Guthrie describe what she liked in a dog -- smooth coat, traditional b/w, no speckles. She was precisely describing her Riddle dog. I'd say sometimes we like what we like because of one very special dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 In my case, what's funny is that one day at an adoption event, the president of ABCR made a casual comment to me about my presumed preference for red bc's. And when I questioned this observation, she replied, "Well you have one". I pondered for a moment before replying, "Actually, I have two, but I don't really have any strong preference for reds. That's just the way things turned out". (Though I suppose one could argue Kit is a tan, not a red). Then I got to thinking that I actually have had two black and white dogs as well...one an ACD mix, the other a borzoi. I do share RDM's passion for tiny little pointy bc's. Rough or smooth, tri or bi- colored makes no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traadilooar Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 <Gulp> First post here. But do you really want one of these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yoda ears are the best! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roseviewfarm Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I can attest to the "you get what you are meant to get". I have always preferred the traditionally marked B/W Border collies. Reds have been a favorite, but never considered a tri. Well my latest pup is a split faced tri. Couldnt help it, instant connection. Who knew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I dont see why wanting a red dog is any different than those of us who have a specific Sex of dog we like? Because almost every working litter has both male and female pups. Very few have red pups. It's kind of mathematical. The majority of red pups you'll readily find for sale will tend to be from agility and/or show lines. It will just take you longer to find a litter with red pups from good working lines. Especially if the litter is sought after and there are prospective buyers known to the breeder as sheepdog folks, who get on the waiting list ahead of you. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiperNY Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I dont know of any who breeds red dogs (deliberately) that I would get one from (All the pups are spoken for in case you were wondering) Congrats on finding great homes for all of your puppies Just to clarify, I would never get a puppy from someone who deliberately breeds for color. Re-reading my original post, I can see how it would be misunderstood that I was looking only for color (sorry!). I do have other critera that is more important to me than color, and I would never pass over the perfect dog just because of what they looked like. But I just figured I'd post and see if people knew of great crosses that have red in the genes. Maybe my next dog, or even my next dog, isn't meant to be red, and that's okay with me. But if I found a cross that I loved that had a red puppy, of course I would go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carol campion Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Congrats on finding great homes for all of your puppies ...........But I just figured I'd post and see if people knew of great crosses that have red in the genes. Maybe my next dog, or even my next dog, isn't meant to be red, and that's okay with me. But if I found a cross that I loved that had a red puppy, of course I would go for it. Eileen Steinman's Don (imported and run by Alasdair Macrae) produced red when crossed to his own Star. Star was from Dal Kratzer's Tib who went back to Bobby Ford's Megan. I owned another daughter of Megan out of a different sire and she produced 3 reds in a litter of 8 when bred to an Aled Owen's Roy son (the older Roy). Try contacting Eileen Steinman in TX. Also, Roy Johnson in VA used to have a good line of red dogs. I don't know if he still does or not. Maybe someone on here knows. Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancyp Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Because almost every working litter has both male and female pups. Very few have red pups. It's kind of mathematical. The majority of red pups you'll readily find for sale will tend to be from agility and/or show lines. It will just take you longer to find a litter with red pups from good working lines. Especially if the litter is sought after and there are prospective buyers known to the breeder as sheepdog folks, who get on the waiting list ahead of you. ~ Gloria I understand that Gloria, My point really was , that alot of people will only take one over the other and some peope only want a tri, and they wait to get that, Or a blk and wht and they wait for that, why condem the OP for wanting and waiting and searching on the BC boards looking for help for a red one, and waiting for that. that is all I was saying is I hate it when people ask for help and get treated like they are total idiots, by people here on the BC boards. I dont post here much , but have been around the working Border collies a long time, and I GET TREATED THE SAME.I just think people need to realise not all people understand the POLITICS on this booard, they are simply looking for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancyp Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Because almost every working litter has both male and female pups. Very few have red pups. It's kind of mathematical. The majority of red pups you'll readily find for sale will tend to be from agility and/or show lines. It will just take you longer to find a litter with red pups from good working lines. Especially if the litter is sought after and there are prospective buyers known to the breeder as sheepdog folks, who get on the waiting list ahead of you. ~ Gloria Gloria, I AM NOT imcluding you in the nasty poster comment, your response was awesome and informative . thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Carol, Roy Johnsons' Sonny (Steve McCall's breeding) produced a bunch of red pups when crossed to Cathy Hartley's Duck, who was red, and I believe Roy kept one or two of those pups. So Sonny carries red. I bred my Twist (Henry Kuykendall's Imp. Mirk lines--definitely carries red, and those lines produce a lot of red, as well as Roy's lines through Kay Sander's Quest--Rosco is a great grand, I think, in Twist's pedigree through Quest) to Sonny, and got all B&W pups. Someone on another thread asked if Twist carries red, and I honestly don't know. She had two red littermates, and her dam produced another red pup in a similarly bred litter (Quest and Tom Forrester's Pete). Roy took that pup, named Michael, but I don't know if he still has him, but he definitely goes back to both Imp. Mirk (through Pete) and Rosco (through Quest). I think Twist (or the Twist/Sonny cross) illustrates why red isn't necessarily found easily in working litters. Sometimes it shows up and sometimes it doesn't. (FWIW, I bred to Sonny because I thought his traits would complement Twist's and honestly I was more worried about the results of crossing two white-factored dogs--pups with excess white, like Pip, than whether any red pups might show up.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Dear Doggers, Many years ago Peg Brown in the Dakotas deliberately bred red working sheepdogs. She sold pups to ranchers and Ramboulette people but I never saw one of her dogs on the trial field. There've been a few dandy red dogs in this country. I've never seen one in the UK; there's a strong prejudice against merles,reds and mostly whites. All things being equal, I like a bareskinned black & white or tri with a strong white blaze because such a dog is easier to see at great distances and bareskinned dogs don't pick up as many burrs. But, with sheepdogs, all things are never equal. I have never bought a dog without knowing it had problems. I've bought sound-shy, too strong eyed/too tight, pushy/uncertain, and a couple that bit people. I've never had the luxury of caring about coat. I saw something in each dog that made me think - "This flawed dog and this flawed human just might - might - create something extraordinary." Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hello everyone, Donald mentioned the red dogs from Peg Brown in South Dakota, and I do recall one dog that she produced trialing in Open, Skip Robinson's Bravo. Bravo was not red (he was actually slate / blue), and he and Skip did a nice job on the trial field. Donald also writes, "I saw something in each dog that made me think - "This flawed dog and this flawed human just might - might - create something extraordinary." Wonderful, Donald.....my sentiments exactly. Regards to all, nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hello everyone, Donald mentioned the red dogs from Peg Brown in South Dakota, and I do recall one dog that she produced trialing in Open, Skip Robinson's Bravo. Bravo was not red (he was actually slate / blue), and he and Skip did a nice job on the trial field. Donald also writes, "I saw something in each dog that made me think - "This flawed dog and this flawed human just might - might - create something extraordinary." Wonderful, Donald.....my sentiments exactly. Regards to all, nancy And there's this one -- English 2010 National Champ - but the bloodlines would be a bit far... I don't think you can "find" a red dog -- I think one has to find you . Robin and I may never make it to the trial field, but we'll have a heck of a journey, considering our life together so far... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimL Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Well I've found my red and white puppy locally, I feel very lucky! She/he is 6 wks old so I have two more weeks of waiting. Nice working lines, love the parents whom I've met several times and have seen working. I'm so looking forward to February 25th. Hope you find your special pup soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Kim, who's the breeder? Can you post the pedigree for us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 There've been a few dandy red dogs in this country. I've never seen one in the UK; there's a strong prejudice against merles,reds and mostly whites. If I'm not mistaken Toddy Lambe's Craig, ISDS 249897, who won the International Supreme in 2004, was a red tri. That may have tamped down the prejudice a bit, though I'm sure none of the serious handlers in the UK would be actively looking for reds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 If I'm not mistaken Toddy Lambe's Craig, ISDS 249897, who won the International Supreme in 2004, was a red tri. And it took no time at all for the Sporter Collie breeders to get their hands on those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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