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Red Border Collie Litters?


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I understand that Gloria, My point really was , that alot of people will only take one over the other and some peope only want a tri, and they wait to get that, Or a blk and wht and they wait for that, why condem the OP for wanting and waiting and searching on the BC boards looking for help for a red one, and waiting for that. that is all I was saying is I hate it when people ask for help and get treated like they are total idiots, by people here on the BC boards. I dont post here much , but have been around the working Border collies a long time, and I GET TREATED THE SAME.I just think people need to realise not all people understand the POLITICS on this booard, they are simply looking for help.

 

I think, very occasionally, there are threads where people ask for help and get treated badly, and I cringe at those threads, but I don't understand why you think this thread is one of them, or why it has anything to do with politics. No one condemned the OP, or treated him/her like an idiot, and I don't think s/he perceives that as having happened. A few people cautioned him/her on two points -- that s/he was limiting his/her choices and perhaps not for a good reason, and that many people who breed and advertise red dogs say they are breeding for work when they really are not. I think those are perfectly legitimate points to make. The second one is undoubtedly true, is it not? Yet sometimes relatively inexperienced border collie people don't recognize that, and it can be helpful for a more experienced person to point it out. As for the first point, some people care about color and some people don't. I literally have no preference at all and never have had, but I recognize that others do because they say so, and I accept that. (Just the way I recognize that lots of people like babies, because they say so and I observe that they act accordingly.) However, I have noticed that the more different colored (or different eared, or whatever) dogs people have had, the less likely they are to have these preferences, or at least the less weight they give to these preferences when they're getting a dog. They've seen how totally satisfactory dogs with all these characteristics can be, and how little these characteristics have to do with how satisfactory the dog is. So I think it's legitimate for old-timers to note their experiences in that regard. In some cases, it will persuade someone not to pass up a dog that could be just right for them while waiting and looking for a particular color. In other cases, it won't have that effect, which is fine too.

 

I think people took issue with your statement that a color preference is no different than a gender preference, not only because most litters contain both sexes so you don't need to go on a quest for one or the other, but also because there are genuine behavioral differences (to say nothing of breeding roles) associated with males and females that might make someone choose one over the other. I guess some say that there are behavioral differences that go with color, but I've never seen any decent evidence of that. So I think there's more genuine basis for choices based on sex than for choices based on color.

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Yes I want petite female too! Where can I place my order? ;-) I'm content to wait, not ready for a new one right now. Coming up with a seemingly rare combination has been a good way from keeping me from getting every tempting dog who crosses my path. Lest anyone take me seriously though, color is actually the last thing on my laundry list of wants in a dog. More like the strawberry icing on the cake. ;-) Even my sports friends who have color listed further up their list still look at behavior and such well before color.

 

Congrats to the OP on her upcoming addition. Can't wait to see pics!

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I think it's ok to dream about what you like in looks, most everyone has a preference. Sure you might have to wait awhile, and it might not be the next dog you get, but you always keep that image in you when yyou go looking for your next dog. When I decided I wanted a BC, I dreamed of a b/w with a white face and black prick ears, I think he showed up to me in a dream. And I found a breeder that I liked, made the deposit before the pups hit the ground. When he emailed me that they were born, he knew I wanted a male and told me there were a few. I tentively told him my dream dog, and by-golly he had a pup, exactly what I wanted. We were both excited! Said it was a rare face combo, I took it as a sign that it was meant to be.

 

He turned out prick-eared too. ;)

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Good luck with your search...I have to feel that you will compromise something in working quality if you hold out for your ideal red dog....but maybe not.

 

Most recently I have bred my own...but I've ordered a handful of pups.

 

Those of us that truly value working ability usually sign up for a working litter well in advance regardless of the looks. When I work with the breeder to select the right pup...usually long distance because I look for particular crosses....my description is mostly focused on the qualities I like such as confidence, good bone (I don't particularly like itty bitty dogs), middle dominance (trending toward alpha...but not a terrorist). Beyond that I trust the breeder to respect my wishes and send me the right pup.

 

The last outside pup I purchased long distance, the pup was selected based on temperament....it was only last minute when the pup was being shipped with another pup did I remember to ask what my pup looked like....so I could sort the two pups on arrival.

 

I like a rough coated b/w pricked eared dark eyed traditional look......she is smooth, tri (actually sable/brindle...she's got tiger stripes!), goofy ears and yellow eyes(YUCK!)!.....she's now 15 mo and FAB!! And an added bonus....being smooth she's dirt and foxtail resistant.

 

EDITED: I forgot to add...she has great confidence, middle dominance and quite petite....but turns out one of the larger bitches in the litter as they were all smallish. The smallness was a blessing in disguise as she fits in a 200 which was all the extra space my truck could afford.

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I like a rough coated b/w pricked eared dark eyed traditional look......she is smooth, tri (actually sable/brindle...she's got tiger stripes!), goofy ears and yellow eyes(YUCK!)!.....she's now 15 mo and FAB!! And an added bonus....being smooth she's dirt and foxtail resistant.

 

Pictures of the little monster?

 

I prefer a smooth coat just because of the burrs and mud, but I do own 3 rough coats. One of those rough coats became a smooth after a run in with a patch of cockle burrs last summer. She had so many on her that she fell on her side and couldn't move. Her tail and back legs were fused together in one enormous mat of hair and burs. The only thing I could do is shave her down to get them off.

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Pictures of the little monster?

 

I prefer a smooth coat just because of the burrs and mud, but I do own 3 rough coats. One of those rough coats became a smooth after a run in with a patch of cockle burrs last summer. She had so many on her that she fell on her side and couldn't move. Her tail and back legs were fused together in one enormous mat of hair and burs. The only thing I could do is shave her down to get them off.

 

Just a hint (and certainly wouldn't have worked in your situation)--hair detangler works wonderfully well at getting out burrs. I use the Suave detangler, soak the burr, brushes right out. Makes Star smell good, too!

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The brindle "tiger stripes" are truly kind of sexy......pointy ears would have compensated for yellow eyes....but she ended up with goofy up-ish-all-over-the-place ears AND yellow eyes. ARGH! Those eyes are positively Demonic. I'll have nightmares.

 

Fortunately for me.....Jesse is a Maserati working sheep so the ugliness of unproven awkward youth has transformed into Hubba-Hubba-You-Sexy-Thing on sheep. So, all is forgiven.

 

I might decide to sign up for brindle goofy eared yellow eyed smallish smooth coats in the future......on second thought...maybe not the yellow eyes.

 

BTW Other than the Demonic eyes....Dexter is the epitome of handsome-ness.

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I think Jesse is lovely. Her all-over ears are very endearing. And as for the creepy eyes, they make for good photos. Here is my creepy-eyed dog.

 

 

5443922573_a1881ed816.jpg

 

BTW, when I bought Rex as a yearling (over the phone, he lived in a different province), I had no idea what he looked like. When I first went to see him, I believe I asked "Which one is mine?" biggrin.gif What I *did* know about him, though, is that he came from pretty tough lines who have LOTS of come forward. That was more important to me than colour or ears (though one day, I hope I'll have a flashy tri with prick ears and a long white floofy tail).

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Of all my appearance likes and dislikes, the only 100% match with the dogs we actually have is that we don't have dog with a wide blaze. We've also never had a traditional B/W rough coat, which always kind of cracks me up since it means none of our dogs are ever recognized (outside knowledgeable circles) as border collies......

 

Pippin (the one in my avatar) comes pretty close to my favorite look (though the blowing in the wind character of her one pricked ear leaves something to be desired).

 

I'm also in the camp of finding the yellow eyes a little creepy--and I still love the three we have with such eyes *almost* as much as I love those with the lovely browns.... ;)

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I love the yellow eyes. Someone said that dogs carrying red will have yellow eyes....

 

Robin's aren't exactly yellow -- sort of greenish gold. They were a very bright blue until he was about four-five months old. We thought they would stay blue, then they began to slowly change color.

 

Interesting bit of folklore as Brodie (Robin's littermate) is a pattern white, though could likely carry the red gene and his eyes are dark amber - certainly not the soft brown like Ladybug's :).

 

@Pippin's Person - Folks generally get Brodie right as "some kind of Border Collie", but in spite of his beautiful plumed tail, hazard a guess that as a red tri, Robin is an Aussie -- sigh-- and these pups came out of a pattern white bred to a black and white rough coat. (Ladybug is not related to them - she's a rescue) As the song says, "Goes to show you never can tell..."

 

Jan2010018.jpg

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My red dog, Logan, is a grandson to Peg Brown breeding. He also has Lewis Pulfer's Dell in his background, which was also red. Logan was an adequate open dog and a tremendous goose dog. Personally, I wouldn't select red again, given a choice, or an overly white dog. I feel, as others greater than me have spoken, that an off-colored dog causes the sheep to turn and look at them, which can create weakness in a dog over time. But if a person's goal is not the trial field, what difference does it make to me? Life is short, get the dog you want.

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My red dog, Logan, is a grandson to Peg Brown breeding. He also has Lewis Pulfer's Dell in his background, which was also red. Logan was an adequate open dog and a tremendous goose dog. Personally, I wouldn't select red again, given a choice, or an overly white dog. I feel, as others greater than me have spoken, that an off-colored dog causes the sheep to turn and look at them, which can create weakness in a dog over time. But if a person's goal is not the trial field, what difference does it make to me? Life is short, get the dog you want.

 

Wendy, I know this as been discussed at various times before, (and if you like, please PM me), but as I have some small aspirations for Robin, I would like to hear of your experiences.

 

Liz

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About 3 yrs ago I was at one of my first trials as a spectator. I ended up in a conversation with a gentleman who had a R/W border collie,he said he would never get another red, nor a merle or an excessively white dog, the judges just didn't look at them the same. Another gentleman at the trial told me that in Scotland (where he was originally from) they used to cull the merle's because merle's can't herd (how long ago that was I have no idea). Very interesting conversation for someone who was very new to border collies and herding AND had a red merle border collie puppy (my boy is a rescue from Craigs List, he was found on the streets of Atlanta, GA as a 3 mo pup).

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@Pippin's Person - Folks generally get Brodie right as "some kind of Border Collie", but in spite of his beautiful plumed tail, hazard a guess that as a red tri, Robin is an Aussie -- sigh-- and these pups came out of a pattern white bred to a black and white rough coat. (Ladybug is not related to them - she's a rescue) As the song says, "Goes to show you never can tell..."

 

Our red tri is also typically typed as an Aussie; the speckled girls typically get typed as ACD crosses or border collie crosses (but not purebreds); the smoothies, usually pitt mixes, particularly our slicky. Our youngster, who is piebald, gets typed as a terrier mix or some other kind of mix. He did look quite a bit like a JRT as a pup, but less so now. Two of ours are white-factored as well, at least one of them from a breeding of two white-factored parents.

 

Interesting parlor game, for sure.

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About 3 yrs ago I was at one of my first trials as a spectator. I ended up in a conversation with a gentleman who had a R/W border collie,he said he would never get another red, nor a merle or an excessively white dog, the judges just didn't look at them the same. Another gentleman at the trial told me that in Scotland (where he was originally from) they used to cull the merle's because merle's can't herd (how long ago that was I have no idea). Very interesting conversation for someone who was very new to border collies and herding AND had a red merle border collie puppy (my boy is a rescue from Craigs List, he was found on the streets of Atlanta, GA as a 3 mo pup).

 

A year and a half a go, when I was considering what to do with my pups, someone with quite a bit of trial experience quite bluntly told me to train Brodie and "do something else with Robin" in quite a dismissive tone - this without ever seeing either one of them on sheep! It was quite hurtful, as I valued this person's opinion, but I decided to take Robin along with Brodie for a few starter lessons because this person hadn't given me any real reason why NOT to take him and it turns out that he as well as Brodie have both interest and ability.

 

There was a discussion a few months back about the handler being able to see the various coats/ color combinations at different times of day and weather - to me, this is the only argument that carries any real weight for choosing one color dog over another once you've determined ability. But the potential sheep reacting to different coat colors is interesting, but then wouldn't the sheep also react to different coats, ears, body size and bone structures as well?

 

Liz

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Our red tri is also typically typed as an Aussie; the speckled girls typically get typed as ACD crosses or border collie crosses (but not purebreds); the smoothies, usually pitt mixes, particularly our slicky. Our youngster, who is piebald, gets typed as a terrier mix or some other kind of mix. He did look quite a bit like a JRT as a pup, but less so now. Two of ours are white-factored as well, at least one of them from a breeding of two white-factored parents.

 

Interesting parlor game, for sure.

 

Even my own mother, (a farm girl herself, but whose idea of a Border Collie starts and ends with a dog like Ladybug)keeps shaking her head when she looks at Robin :). Poor dog. There was a mini-reunion at his birth farm last week and he stood out among his Border Collie cousins like a Cardinal in a convent :).

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But the potential sheep reacting to different coat colors is interesting, but then wouldn't the sheep also react to different coats, ears, body size and bone structures as well?

 

But they do. All the variables, seen and unseen, are wrapped up in a package called "method". which is the individual way a dog works sheep.

 

I would encourage anyone who is interested in herding to work with whatever dog they have, regardless of color. There are color preferences, and color prejudices. If your interest is the open trial field, then it is best to be aware of them and the reasons for it.

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But they do. All the variables, seen and unseen, are wrapped up in a package called "method". which is the individual way a dog works sheep.

 

I would encourage anyone who is interested in herding to work with whatever dog they have, regardless of color. There are color preferences, and color prejudices. If your interest is the open trial field, then it is best to be aware of them and the reasons for it.

 

Does the way the sheep react to a particular dog depend their familiarity with the type with which they have been worked or is it something more ingrained in the sheep?

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The brindle "tiger stripes" are truly kind of sexy......pointy ears would have compensated for yellow eyes....but she ended up with goofy up-ish-all-over-the-place ears AND yellow eyes. ARGH! Those eyes are positively Demonic. I'll have nightmares.

 

Fortunately for me.....Jesse is a Maserati working sheep so the ugliness of unproven awkward youth has transformed into Hubba-Hubba-You-Sexy-Thing on sheep. So, all is forgiven.

 

This.

 

My Hoot (RDM's Dexter's littermate) is a huge, gangly, goofy-looking, what-are-my-ears-doing, yellow-eyed dog. Not at all "handsome" in my eyes. But, oh, how he works! I do love my goofy pup, but mostly his looks make me laugh :) Not like my Nick, who is all prick-eared good looks.

 

Smooth coats next time, please. The mud around here. GAK!

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Does the way the sheep react to a particular dog depend their familiarity with the type with which they have been worked or is it something more ingrained in the sheep?

 

Good question. Method describe the way a particular dog works sheep, but when considering how a sheep reacts to a dog, instinctively vs. familiarity, I would say "it depends". It is well known amongst handlers that there is a home court advantage; that is, that sheep recognize certain dogs and react more comfortably with them. That is why most whom host trials refuse to run in them. I suppose that if you had a dog of any sort of color, that moved your own flock with respect and confidence, that you would have no problem at home. But when trialing on different flocks of various breeds and experiences, some not even dogged at all, then the way a sheep reacts instinctively would be the safest generalization.

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About 3 yrs ago I was at one of my first trials as a spectator. I ended up in a conversation with a gentleman who had a R/W border collie,he said he would never get another red, nor a merle or an excessively white dog, the judges just didn't look at them the same. Another gentleman at the trial told me that in Scotland (where he was originally from) they used to cull the merle's because merle's can't herd (how long ago that was I have no idea). Very interesting conversation for someone who was very new to border collies and herding AND had a red merle border collie puppy (my boy is a rescue from Craigs List, he was found on the streets of Atlanta, GA as a 3 mo pup).

 

I would take this with a grain of salt. There are definitely some judges who don't care for red dogs or merles or mostly white dogs, and wouldn't have one themselves. There are also some judges who are affected by weird prejudices of all kinds in their judging. I suppose occasionally there is overlap between these two categories. But having watched a lot of judging over the years, and having run a red tri and a mostly white dog myself (back when prejudice was probably stronger), I truly cannot recall a time when I thought a red or mostly white dog got screwed in the judging. Lewis Pulfer's Dell, mentioned a few posts ago, certainly did a lot of winning in her day, as did Lewie Pence's white dogs. Dick Williams's Mirk, a merle, routinely places high and won Leatherstocking (a 60-dog Open trial) last year. I think the overwhelming majority of the time, if such a dog does well it will be scored well, just the same as any other dog, even if the judge may give the dog's handler a lot of grief about the dog's color at the handler's supper.

 

Does the way the sheep react to a particular dog depend their familiarity with the type with which they have been worked or is it something more ingrained in the sheep?

 

As far as color is concerned, I would say yes, it's definitely based on familiarity. Sheep stare at a white dog (for example) at the lift because they haven't met up with one before and are puzzled by it at first. They're not sure what it means for them. If the dog has confidence and push, they usually move away from it and react to it as they would any other dog as the run goes on. Sheep who are regularly worked by white dogs don't have that initial puzzled (or challenging) reaction.

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