huskerdog (liz) Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 After reading the Susan Garrett thread and coming across the Google top 10 breeder websites, I thought it would be interesting to see how many breeders of working Borders maintain or have websites online? When Jdarling did her google search these were the top ten results: 1. GForce BCs 2. Hob Nob 3. Rising Sun 4. Lockeye 5. Red Dawn 6. Puppy Dog Web 7. BCSA 8. Next Day Pets 9. Seven Links Ranch 10. Stockdog.com Especially now it seems that more and more potential puppy buyers are seeking out information and potential purchases online. Breeders focusing on sporting dogs certainly seem to have websites, and the majority of show/Barbie breeders do as well. Perhaps we could post links of working breeders to this thread? If I ever get a puppy not via a rescue, here are some on my list: (USA) L& M stockdogs Red Top (UK) Corrie Dhu sheepdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Personally, I think a person should include their state or a state closeby that they are willing to travel to in their google search. That way that can go and see parents and/or siblings actually work and see how the breeder handlers their livestock so that they can determine if the breeder is producing something that suits them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think the difference between working breeders' websites and those that seem to pop up in the first 10 search is that working breeders don't advertise their breeding. Many may advertise their training, i.e., working with students or taking in outside dogs for training, and many of those may also have a litter every now and then; some may even breed fairly regularly. But they don't advertise those pups because the pups are generally spoken for long before the breeding ever takes place, so it's not necessary to advertise their pups to the "general public," A ETA Oh, and "working borders" is a phrase that will bother many working folks; to refer to a border collie as a "border" is a real ACK thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think the difference between working breeders' websites and those that seem to pop up in the first 10 search is that working breeders don't advertise their breeding. Many may advertise their training, i.e., working with students or taking in outside dogs for training, and many of those may also have a litter every now and then; some may even breed fairly regularly. But they don't advertise those pups because the pups are generally spoken for long before the breeding ever takes place, so it's not necessary to advertise their pups to the "general public," A Totally agree ... and they usually don't keep a "Stable" of 6 or 8 brood bitches and have 6 litters a year! I'm amazed at some of the web sites that have that many litters and brag about how they well they socialize their puppies. How could you with THAT many pups (if you have 6 litters and you keep them 2 months ... there are puppies there ALL the time). One litter does me in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I took a look at the last few dogs that I had got. All from word of mouth. Some I wasn't even looking but people knew I was looking for a well bred dog but was in no rush to get so they let me know. Taff was via word of mouth and a great deal of it was that I owned his mom, Nan and they wanted just a good home for him. The two Bobby Dalziel pups were word of mouth and the person knew I was looking for some Joe pups for a couple of years. The best way if you want a pup is to establish a relationship with the people you want a pup from...even though they do NOT have a litter on the ground. Then when they have a litter, you will know about it or if they know of another upcoming litter, you will be informed. Show them you will do right by the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 It's not only a matter of having a website, but keeping it up to date somewhat. I can't tell you how many I've run across that were many years old it was impossible to tell if they were even still into dogs (especially since email addresses were often no longer working). I would love to see people here come up with a list of working bc breeders and their websites, or maybe convince the people at the littlehats website to update their list. How many times do people come here looking for breeder recommendations? It would be a good way to promote the working breeders and rescue as well. Speaking of google, I love that searching for Susan Garrett's Border Collies now brings up the thread here. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 So, if you live in a place where working stock is not a big deal (or any deal at all), and most, if not all, working breeders don't have a website...other than lucking into finding this board, how does Joe Schmo find working breeders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Paula, I have a couple of suggestions..... Go to the USBCHA website, find the trial calendar, attend a trial in your region, begin asking around, learn about the trials, lend a hand if you can, watch dogs and handlers and see what you like.....inquire about upcoming breedings. Repeat trips to other trials as needed. Go to the USBCHA and ABCA website and contact a Director in your region....as about how you might find a quality working bred pup. Contact a regional stockdog club that promotes USBCHA trialing/ABCA breeding....contact a director of that club or attend a regional trial.....help out if you can....ask about upcoming breedings. Some regional clubs (and the USBCHA) have "classified" and "breeder listings" for their members. I wouldn't not take these listings a "guaranteed" quality but it might be a good place to begin to inquire or ask others about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Just an FYI..Corrie Dhu kennel in the UK will no longer import dogs to the US...she unfortunetly made the mistake of selling an intact dog to somebody supposedly using the dog for work, not knowing they were a well known sport breeder...the dog ended up being owned and used as stud to a popular obedience/agility/flyball kennel...then was sold again...and sold again after he became to "herdy"....so won't import anymore over here after that... I think some kind of working breeder directory would be fantastic... I am sure there is a thread on it..but what would the criteria be for such a list?? To me it should be made from dogs/handlers competing in open trials with some success or showing that either the dog or handler has the talent to do so... L and M stockdogs are an excellent choice...fieldstone also will sell to AKC home with a spay/neueter type contract...I know some excellent breeders as well in ND, MN and Wisc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 For overseas I would recomend Kinloch Sheepdogs(also if you go to there links page they have PRETTY much all the well respected breeder/trainers/handlers over in Europe listed on there)...and I have a friend who has had quite a bit of luck through getting dogs from Aled Owen... But if you are just looking for a pet or sport dog I don't know if you would want to drop the heavy shipping fees, etc. when there are plenty of nice prospects over here for half the cost Main reason I know of people who do import dogs....they will sell an intact dog, good working pedigreed pup to anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I would love to see people here come up with a list of working bc breeders and their websites, or maybe convince the people at the littlehats website to update their list. How many times do people come here looking for breeder recommendations? It would be a good way to promote the working breeders and rescue as well. Or, at least a list of specific people to contact if one is looking to try to find a working breeder. If I were at an Agility trial and someone said, "I would like to get my next Border Collie from a working breeder, do you know any?" my answer would have to be "no". I don't personally know any working breeders. I don't have one name that I could pass on. I could mention this board and say that the person could come on here and ask, but not everyone goes onto forums like this. And I could ask on their behalf, but if I don't know the person well, that might not really work. I can understand why working breeders might not want to be on a list for everyone and anyone to contact, but if there were a list of people in the stockwork world who were "in the know" about who breeds and who tends to be willing to sell to non-working homes, and their emails, that would be an invaluable resource. That is information that I would be more than willing to pass on to anyone who is interested. Speaking of google, I love that searching for Susan Garrett's Border Collies now brings up the thread here. :-) Wow!! The first two links are to the thread on this board. It's even above her own site and blog!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy in Ontario Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Totally agree ... and they usually don't keep a "Stable" of 6 or 8 brood bitches and have 6 litters a year! I'm amazed at some of the web sites that have that many litters and brag about how they well they socialize their puppies. How could you with THAT many pups (if you have 6 litters and you keep them 2 months ... there are puppies there ALL the time). One litter does me in! Right! And if you do the math at $1000 a pup, that's more than I make from my lambs every year! So they can be a 'breeder' full time. Sheesh! Nancy in Ontario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I took a look at the last few dogs that I had got. All from word of mouth. Ok ... these multiple threads are getting confusing and some of what I'm saying is being misconstrued and I'm going to step out of all of it, but one thing I wanted to mention ... from my understanding ... what people are saying is that the sport people wouldn't know where to find working bred pups because working dog advertisers don't advertise on the internet. Diane, it's great that you got all your dogs from word of mouth. You're an open handler. Word of mouth to an agility handler is ... a Sporter Collie breeding. And, I guess, from what everyone is saying, the stockdog handlers are not only supposed to show up at the agility trials and educate the agility handlers, they are supposed to teach the ranchers what these dogs are all about, too. I wonder when the stockdog handlers will have time to work their own dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Try 8 litters on the ground at the same time at $1200 a pup. A breeder like that can gross well over $100K a year. You can see how people fall into being commercial breeders with money like that on the line. They choose profit over quality or ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 How about a list of working breeders who would sell to sport and pet homes? and allow participation in AKC sporting events (with a S/N contract)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Go to the USBCHA website, Yeah and I'm Joe Shmoe, and my first question to this suggestion is "WTF is the USBCHA?" Because I, like approximately 97% of the people in this world, have never heard of the USBCHA, The ABCA or anything else related to working dogs, registries etc. See this is the disconnect I was talking about it the other thread. It's like everyone here assumes that people have some working knowledge of the breed's history, because the people here have that knowledge and can't imagine not having it. But most people don't have it and have no idea where to start having it. So they buy their border collies from a website or a kijiji or-whatever-the-hell-it's-called advert. Why wouldn't they? I had a shelter surrender a puppy to my rescue because they could not find the breeder - they couldn't figure out the CBCA breeder tattoo on its inside flank ... the tattoo was not a clinic code and not a CKC breeder tattoo, and not a single employee at the shelter, nor any dog person they spoke to about the puppy, had any clue that there was another registry for border collies until they found me and I clued them in. So when even the "dog people" have no clue, how can we expect the average pet owner to have even the remotest one? I have a border collie behind the desk with me at work today ... she hops up on the counter to greet just about everyone, and as she is quite striking in appearance, people are very taken with her. Every single person has first asked if she is a border collie, and then have either said one of two things: 1 - I saw an article on the news last night ... those dogs are the smartest dogs in the world, right? 2 - Are those the dogs that used to be for herding sheep and stuff? And they can't live in an apartment or something, right? I cannot imagine that if any one of these people wanted a border collie that they would even have the tiniest of clues where to start looking for a 'good' one. Granted when you google "border collie breeder BC"(as in the province) the CBCA is one of the first websites that comes up (and so is mine. haha) But I wonder how much of it they would read beyond the breeder classifieds. I know that people want potential puppy buyers to put more thought into the research behind their decisions to get a border collie, and that if they did that, the "bred for working ability" would be such a simple concept, but first they have to be interested in the concept for it to make enoughn sense to be simple. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 First thing, don't we, especially the people involved in rescue, always talk about how important it is for people to research breeds etc before getting a dog in order to make sure the particular dog is a good fit? Well in the case of people already in the know about dogs enough that they are doing a sport such as agility I don't think it is too much to expect that they could find a good working Border Collie breeder. How hard is it to do a little research or get on a message board and find some information. Sheesh, with the internet you can find almost anything! When I first was starting out looking for a good trainer, it took me about a week to find one. And that was without internet. I just started thinking of who might know someone and called them, they told me other names and I just kept going till I found someone close enough to my house. I took my pup up there to see what he'd do on sheep and when he was old enough we started taking lessons and went from there. In this day and age with information right at your fingertips there is no excuse for not being able to find good breeders and/or trainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Most of the people I have met not only know what breed of dogs I have, but that they are sheepdogs. I own a grooming and pet supplies store and I bring all my dogs with me to work everyday. I'm always amazed at how many of my customers not only know my dogs are Border Collies, but they ask me if they work sheep. The one's that might not ask but that I tell that they work sheep, never act surprised. They mostly just think that's great that the dogs get to work. I think a lot of the posters here are underestimating the general public's perception of the breed. And I live in a very non sheep area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Right! And if you do the math at $1000 a pup, that's more than I make from my lambs every year! So they can be a 'breeder' full time. Sheesh! Nancy in Ontario DANG! OK, "Midlife" (OK, OK "late life:@) change of jobs ... who needs this "herding stuff"! I can do this :@) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Most of the people I have met not only know what breed of dogs I have, but that they are sheepdogs. I own a grooming and pet supplies store and I bring all my dogs with me to work everyday. I'm always amazed at how many of my customers not only know my dogs are Border Collies, but they ask me if they work sheep. The one's that might not ask but that I tell that they work sheep, never act surprised. They mostly just think that's great that the dogs get to work. I think a lot of the posters here are underestimating the general public's perception of the breed. And I live in a very non sheep area. "Therein" lies the problem. The people that work their "agility" dogs on AKC courses, with trained sheep or expose their dogs before they breed them just SO they can say ... sure my dogs work sheep ... they have "this" many titles. "The public" can't decipher the difference between stock work and "play work" .... so we have come full circle again :@( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 First thing, don't we, especially the people involved in rescue, always talk about how important it is for people to research breeds etc before getting a dog in order to make sure the particular dog is a good fit? Well in the case of people already in the know about dogs enough that they are doing a sport such as agility I don't think it is too much to expect that they could find a good working Border Collie breeder. How hard is it to do a little research or get on a message board and find some information. Sheesh, with the internet you can find almost anything! When I first was starting out looking for a good trainer, it took me about a week to find one. And that was without internet. I just started thinking of who might know someone and called them, they told me other names and I just kept going till I found someone close enough to my house. I took my pup up there to see what he'd do on sheep and when he was old enough we started taking lessons and went from there. In this day and age with information right at your fingertips there is no excuse for not being able to find good breeders and/or trainers. When I first got Sugarfoot I wanted to learn everything there was to know about Border Collies. She was supposed to be a Border Collie mix, (and it's certainly possible that she is) so I went online. Read the Wikipedia article and then came here. Joined up right away because it was clear this was the place to get the straight dope. Opened my big mouth a couple of times right off and got told "which hog et the cabbage." If people give a damn they will find out about this stuff. If they don't give a damn you will not be able to penetrate with the most sweetly reasoned explanations in the world. (But it never stops me from trying.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 RDM, I believe that in very broad terms there are two groups of border collie people....the "knowledgeable" and the ignorant. The ignorant happen upon border collies accidentally or have false preconceived notions or are misinformed (by the AKC or whoever)....I really do forgive them and hope that they find a good rescue who will educate them.....rather than fall into the hands of BYB, AKC breeders or Sporty/Versatile breeders that feed on their ignorance (no insult....I'm ignorant about alot of things...and once upon a time, ignorant of Border Collies). Amongst the "knowledgeable" group of border collie people there are many "sub-groups"....I can list a few prominent groups: Conformation Obedience Agility Flyball and, my personal favorite, Working Sheepdog/Cattledog, trialers/ranchers (arguably, trialers and ranchers may constitute two separate groups, perhaps with some lapover). I don't cut the "knowledgeable" group any slack....they are all stakeholders in Border Collie politics and have picked their "sides". I fully expect that at minimum they know the difference between the AKC, NADAC, AHBA, USBCHA and ABCA......perhaps through political debate they can be swayed to expand their knowledge....perhaps shift their stand...but it's usually from a pretty rigid position (based on beliefs, stakes, $$ and other). You can't tell me that the major stakeholders and volume breeders don't know exactly what factions/politics are out there.....they've got major dollars invested and at stake (I'm told that "sporty" "versatile" and "conformation" puppies sell for big bucks!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 First thing, don't we, especially the people involved in rescue, always talk about how important it is for people to research breeds etc before getting a dog in order to make sure the particular dog is a good fit? Well sure ... and I try my best to educate people. But I also mostly only expect that they research and understand the breed *as it applies to them* (ie, that they are high energy, highly intelligent, demanding dogs who need interactive owners who are prepared to engage them in physical and mental activities). But to expect them to research and understand the nuances of the breed's history, and the importance of breeding for working ability only is not only asking an awful lot of most pet owners, but I am also not placing a *ton* of working bred border collies because - as I keep pointing out - there are WAY more BYB, non-purpose bred dogs out there in the general populace than working bred dogs. If I only adopted to people who were well versed in the ins-and-outs of the working history of the border collie and the fight to keep it a strictly working bred breed, I would adopt out hardly any dogs. I'm not looking for breed stewards to adopt my homeless dogs, I'm looking for dog stewards who will provide individual dogs great homes. I'm always amazed at how many of my customers not only know my dogs are Border Collies, but they ask me if they work sheep. The one's that might not ask but that I tell that they work sheep, never act surprised. They mostly just think that's great that the dogs get to work. I think a lot of the posters here are underestimating the general public's perception of the breed. And I live in a very non sheep area. But I don't think that understanding that border collies are sheepdogs, and understanding how *important* it is that they are sheepdogs, and that some kinds of breedings don't produce quality sheepdogs, are the same concepts for most people. The general public gets that they are sheepdogs, but don't know why and don't understand what goes into making them that way and keeping them that way. Even many of the sporter collie and casual BYB breeders call their dogs sheepdogs and working dogs, and it may or may not be true. And it may especially not be true to the degree that the working folk here expect of real sheepdogs / working dogs. I don't disagree that most of the sporter collie breeders know exactly what they are doing and who they are marketing their dogs to. I also don't doubt that many of them think they are doing a service to the breed by producing 'nice' dogs and a service to their customers by producing 'nice' dogs, and that they are willfully ignorant of the working dog / non working dog issue, or simply don't care. I'm not at all advocating for them, but I am saying that their customers are probably mostly happy with their dogs because they are nice dogs, and those customers don't really think that the "working dog" issue applies to them, because they do not work their dogs. How many people come on here and ask about their dogs "herding" the cat or "herding" other dogs at the park? These people just don't understand, even after they HAVE border collies, and expecting them to understand in advance of getting their dogs is just expecting too much. "Therein" lies the problem. The people that work their "agility" dogs on AKC courses, with trained sheep or expose their dogs before they breed them just SO they can say ... sure my dogs work sheep ... they have "this" many titles. "The public" can't decipher the difference between stock work and "play work" .... so we have come full circle again :@( Yes, I think that is exactly right. And on an even baser level, a lot of pet border collies owners just think that border collies = sheepdogs and put very little thought into it other than that. If a border collie is a working dog, then they have working dogs, by virtue of the fact that they are border collies. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Great posts, RDM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 "Therein" lies the problem. The people that work their "agility" dogs on AKC courses, with trained sheep or expose their dogs before they breed them just SO they can say ... sure my dogs work sheep ... they have "this" many titles. "The public" can't decipher the difference between stock work and "play work" .... so we have come full circle again :@( Maybe its just because I read this late last night and now early this morning. I'm sure you are just assuming my customers have seen agility dogs or dogs running AKC courses which they think equates to "real" work? Actually I doubt very many of my customers have seen either. My statement was in answer to this. 1 - I saw an article on the news last night ... those dogs are the smartest dogs in the world, right?2 - Are those the dogs that used to be for herding sheep and stuff? And they can't live in an apartment or something, right? I was stating that people do still know what the Border Collie is being used for today. And just to clarify, I have never done agility nor have I ever trialed in AKC. I did try an ASCA trial one time though. Most of my trialing has been at the Pro-novice level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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