Borderlines

[stockdogranch]

Something practical that would make the dog and handler think on their feet - like they should be doing -- instead of following the same pattern every time.

And the ACK "A" course does this exactly...how?

And here, I'm really confused:

 

not a pattern trained dog that was given a title or a buckle for just showing up.

So here are you referring to ACK titles (which you apparently seek, and take pride in, since your dogs' names have the titles after them), or are you suggesting that USBCHA trials do this? HUH? And how does this statement support dual registering, anyway?

A

[Diana A]

Here's why the ABCA is unlikely to do that.

 

It would be a complete and total nightmare, that would end up in a court room or ten. First of all, try to define "breeder or seller of quality working dogs". Essentially, the ABCA would be offering free endorsements. The first person who felt that they were a good breeder who was unfairly being excluded, would sue the ABCA. The annual General Meeting would see a lineup of people complaining that so and so was included on "The List" and so and so, who they know to be a far better breeder was not. We'd have people running around digging up dirt on people on "The List" and posting here that so and so sold a dog to an AKC handler once, and other B.S.

 

The best thing the ABCA can do in this area, in my personal opinion, is to up their efforts on getting the information on the website out to as many places as possible. That could include information in general terms as to how one would go about locating and evaluating breeders of good working dogs, but would definitely stop short of endorsing any particular breeders.

 

I think a lot of that could be avoided if the criteria were very clear cut and strictly followed. They wouldn't need to be terribly onerous to meet, but enough to demonstrate that the person really is producing dogs capable of doing work and not just pet dogs, sport dogs, or AKC hobby dogs. It could be based on showing dogs you've bred or trained have earned a certain number of Open points within the past X years, or supplying some certain number of affadavits from individuals working on commercial operations with dogs produced or trained by the person applying. Also you would not need to say this is a list of 'quality' breeders, making a value judgement. You can say here is a list of border collie breeders who have produced dogs meeting criteria X, Y, and Z and state exactly what those criteria are. How can someone sue for not being on the list if they have clearly not met the criteria to be on it? It's not perfect, I know there are probably good breeders who would be missed simply because they're low volume or they keep one dog for themselves and the rest all went to pet homes, but at least it's a starting point to get a newbie started talking to some of the right people. It has been said before that many working dogs don't trial because their owners are too busy working to go to trials, or can't afford the travel, so leaving 'go to a trial and talk to people' as the only help offered may not be reaching everyone it needs to.

 

Or there could be a simple listing that just puts answers to a questionnaire and don't have any criteria except that the list is for producers of ABCA registered dogs - have you produced or trained dogs who have earned Open points, do you trial dogs in USBCHA trials, do you use working dogs on a commercial operation, have you sold dogs to a commercial operation, are you willing to mentor someone in a commercial operation or interested in trialing in your area, do you sell puppies or trained dogs or both, do you take in other people's dogs for training, please provide a link to your web site, etc. Sure maybe you'd get a lot of people getting listed who weren't working breeders, but they'd have to answer no to all or most of the questions so they probably wouldn't see a point in bothering with it as they wouldn't come out looking very appealing, and even if some did, at least then someone looking for a breeder can pretty clearly see who's producing what they want and who isn't and could compare some information side by side instead of mistakenly hooking up with the first breeder they stumble across - hopefully the really good breeders would stand out on their own merits. A person can't sue if the information provided is what they themselves provide to the website owner and there's a link to a website where they can advertise their dogs however they want, and any criteria for being included (paying a small fee, being an ABCA member, etc) are fairly applied to all. Having a centralized location with links to information on ABCA breeders would be very helpful, even if it's just a listing and some basic information and not any kind of certification. It might even bring in some extra money for ABCA if there's a fee associated with being added to the listing.

 

The American Quarter Horse Association has something along these lines. http://www.aqha.com/en/About/Content-Pages/About-the-Association/Breeder-Referral-Program.aspx

They have some interesting questions in there, such as how many years you've been in breeding, how many years training, how many horses sell in a year, what activities you breed for, etc.

 

The Jack Russell people also have a similar sort of listing:

http://www.jrtcabreeders.com/index.htm

 

And definitley yes, ABCA has some very good information on their site and the more that it can be gotten out to the people who need to see it the better. It just wouldn't hurt to go above and beyond that if someone can devise a good way of doing that.

[D Strickland]

And the ACK "A" course does this exactly...how?

And here, I'm really confused:

 

 

So here are you referring to ACK titles (which you apparently seek, and take pride in, since your dogs' names have the titles after them), or are you suggesting that USBCHA trials do this? HUH? And how does this statement support dual registering, anyway?

A

 

 

Neither the AKC or USBCHA are addressing the "real" work type courses.

 

I am not suggesting ... I am stating a fact that AKC, like USBCHA, has the same pattern type courses. I am saying that a new style of course be created to challenge a dog and handler to a more "realistic" scenario. On my place ( either the 10 acres I'm on or the 90 acre lease ) ... I always work on the Ourun, Lift, and fetch .. that's part of everyday work when bringing sheep up. Every once in a while I have to drive them but never have to drive 200 yards then turn and cross-drive 200 yards ... That may be great in the UK if you're working 1000 acres from the top of a hill ... but not anywhere around where I live.

 

This has nothing to do with dual registering ... as I stated in a previous post .. this post has gone sideways and become a personal attack - which I was expecting -- hence the Flame Retardant suit !!! LOL

 

I am going back to trialling in any and all venues - this hating AKC crap has taken too much energy and time ... I'm gonna have fun and if you don't want to come ... more beer for me !!! LOL

 

How many new people - under the age of 40 - is the USBCHA attracting on a yearly basis ?

 

This new generations of dog owners and trialers are all about instant gratification, titles, ribbons, and "bragging" rights. The new generation of farmers may have a dog or two but they don't have the time or the money for competition. So where is the next generation USBCHA coming from ?

 

In the last 5 years I've started a Border Collie club, an AKC herding club, and an ASCA club. The one that is still thriving is the AKC one. The Border Collie club with about 18 members has one married couple under the age of 40 and the AKC club with 32 members has six. I don't have the figures for the ASCA club.

 

AKC has so many flaws in it's program that it's not even funny .... so I'm not the one that is going to defend it's herding program. The USBCHA does have the better program and better quality dogs and should always be used as a standard.

[Pam Wolf]

Hi Cindy,

 

I have read all posts and I read The Dog Wars when it came out.

 

I am not arguing that the AKC is bad ... it's a corporation with a bottom line .. of course it's bad !!!

 

What I am trying to say is that the changes that are being noticed in the Border Collie are not only the AKC's fault. Border Collies used to be bred for their working ability ONLY ... now they are being bred for their trialling ability which is bad in itself but it makes it worse when you breed for an insane BC or a "pretty" only BC.

 

I would love for the USBCHA to come up with Ranch courses which could not be "pattern trained". Something practical that would make the dog and handler think on their feet - like they should be doing -- instead of following the same pattern every time. That would help people train and breed for smarter dogs.

 

 

OK Dave, I read that you think AKC is bad because it is a corporation, not because of it's policies

 

Ah I can see it now my dual registered, dual CH USBCHA Ranch Dog III !!! The glory of it!

 

While there are many hobby trialists, many BC's are truely tested on the farms and ranches. I have seen and participated in ranch courses in AHBA and ASCA and have found NONE as difficult as what I might have to do on any given day. I have not seen in any circumstance where these courses would help select for smarter or better Border Collies. While the USBCHA Open course may have it's problems, it is indicative of the type of traits and training that makes a dog quite useful on the farm. Unfortunately it can fail as a test sometimes and is no guarentee that a trainer may fail to train the dog to work tough stock.

[Debbie Meier]

Someone asked about the number of trials that were held in a arena that were finals qualifiers, I don't think that any of us have the answer, I doubt that Francis even knows as it is not a requirement to disclose the course size when requesting sanctioning.

 

There are states, 2 that come to mind and I suspect there may be more, that have no open field trials, all of the USBCHA sanctioned trials are held in arenas

 

I would suspect that areas that have more arena trials that also have ASCA and AKC trials will support more handlers that are walking on both sides of the fence, or that have chosen to not pick sides and instead just trial their dogs.

 

Deb

[Liz P]

On my place ( either the 10 acres I'm on or the 90 acre lease ) ... I always work on the Ourun, Lift, and fetch .. that's part of everyday work when bringing sheep up. Every once in a while I have to drive them but never have to drive 200 yards then turn and cross-drive 200 yards ... That may be great in the UK if you're working 1000 acres from the top of a hill ... but not anywhere around where I live.

 

It sounds like you are not using your dogs to their full potential.

 

Recently I sent my dog on a 700 yard blind outrun down a steep, rocky, icy slope to get sheep from the bottom field. I didn't want to navigate the hill, fall and break my neck! The first 300 yards was through woods then across a frozen creek bed and over a fence. Then there was another 400 yards across rolling pasture. He had to drive the sheep about 200 yards to my left to a gap in the fence, convince them to cross the ice and only then could he fetch them to me.

 

This was done on an 80 acre farm not too far from you. My dog saved me time, effort and allowed me to avoid the risk of injury. Isn't that what a Border Collie is supposed to do?

 

I think you are forgetting that this breed was developed by farmers in the UK. If we lower our own standards we will breed inferior dogs, and fail to use them to their potential.

[Eileen Stein]

Neither the AKC or USBCHA are addressing the "real" work type courses.

 

I am not suggesting ... I am stating a fact that AKC, like USBCHA, has the same pattern type courses. I am saying that a new style of course be created to challenge a dog and handler to a more "realistic" scenario. On my place ( either the 10 acres I'm on or the 90 acre lease ) ... I always work on the Ourun, Lift, and fetch .. that's part of everyday work when bringing sheep up. Every once in a while I have to drive them but never have to drive 200 yards then turn and cross-drive 200 yards ... That may be great in the UK if you're working 1000 acres from the top of a hill ... but not anywhere around where I live.

 

The AKC has very specific patterned courses, set down in great detail in its herding rule book. The rules also specify the use of dog-broke, easily moved sheep, and in fact the tame, deadhead quality of the sheep has been the most discreditable part of the AKC trials I've seen.

 

The USBCHA does not specify a course for its trials. The basic traditional sheepdog course is a gather (outrun, lift and fetch), a triangular drive, a pen and one or two sheds. There's a reason for that -- those elements are a very demanding test for the basic skills and abilities a dog needs in order to be of maximum assistance in most sheep operations. A dog needs to be able to gather distant sheep. He doesn't need to drive sheep 200 yards then turn and cross-drive 200 yards particularly, but he does need to be able to drive sheep over whatever distance they need to be driven -- which in some operations is a very long way -- in different orientations to his handler, and this traditional trial set-up is the most efficient and fullest test practicable for the dog's driving ability. Similarly, a dog needs to be able to pen sheep. Rarely if ever will a dog need to put sheep into a free-standing pen on the farm, but if he can put sheep into a free-standing pen -- which is what's expected of him at a HA trial -- then he's demonstrated superior balance, power and biddability for any penning task that may need doing.

 

This is the traditional course, but you can arrive at a USBCHA trial and be told that you will not be having your dog drive the sheep through the drive panels, but instead will be having your dog drive them past the drive panels and then pull them back through. You can be told that in lieu of a drive panel, you'll be driving the sheep up a near vertical cliff face between two rocks. You can be told that you'll be fetching the sheep part way to you, and then commanding the dog to turn them around a post and take them off in a different direction. You can be told that you must put the sheep through a free-standing chute, with you standing next to it or you standing far away at the post, as a compulsory element or as extra credit. You can be told to put them through a maltese cross. Instead of a pen you can be told to put them into a trailer. All of these variations and more I have experienced at USBCHA open trials. We found out about them when we got there, and nobody complained. People liked the challenge. In HA trialing, the bigger and more challenging the course, the tougher the sheep, the more the trial is respected.

 

I've seen a great many open trial dogs engaged in practical work on farms and ranches doing very difficult tasks, and generally doing them very well. I have seen some who were unequal to a particular task, but never has that been because the dogs were pattern trained to a course and "couldn't understand what to do without drive and cross-drive panels."

[Debbie Meier]

I have a question for you Dave, not trying to pick on you, but can your dogs reliably and properly execute a 200 yard cross drive?

 

I've found often times that I don't see a practical use for the manuver until after I have a dog that has mastered it even to a limited degree. I recently heard someone talking about not needing a driving dog except when at a trial, a red flag went up, they don't need one because they don't have one. They may think that their dog drives, but I suspect that it really is not driving, not properly anyway.

 

We have not travelled alot, but we have found that the competition and the standard of work is very different from place to place. It can even be different from trial to trial within the same state or area depending on who is attending the trial.

 

Just because a dog is a dog that has been successful at open trials does not mean that it can handle tough stock, but it does not mean that it can not either.

[Laurae]

Dave, is your open dog running open in field trials or just arena trials?

[Pam Wolf]

Awe Liz, you don't like my cliff

[Liz P]

Awe Liz, you don't like my cliff

 

I don't enjoy suicidal slides down rocky slopes, by accident or on purpose.

[D Strickland]

OK Dave, I read that you think AKC is bad because it is a corporation, not because of it's policies

d training that makes a dog quite useful on the farm. Unfortunately it can fail as a test sometimes and is no guarentee that a trainer may fail to train the dog to work tough stock.

 

Pam ... you have to read all the posts. The AKC has definite policy problems and so does the USBCHA. You cant glorify one organization while bashing another. Why can't everyone just compete in all organizations and take the good from each and go with it ? Why is it always a " You're wrong - I'm right " argument?

 

It seems what you and others are complaining about are AKC Titles. I'll repeat myself again ... Who cares about titles !!!??? You can't judge an entire program because it has titles. The USBCHA has classes instead of titles .... to me that's not much different. These pompous jackasses around here walk around with their Open Dog buckles bragging about their win but don't mention there were only 5 dogs in the class and it was in an indoor arena.

 

I just said that I was going to dual register .. that's it ....

 

This isn't "The Crusades" and I shouldn't be crucified for not believing in the god you believe in !!

[D Strickland]

I have a question for you Dave, not trying to pick on you, but can your dogs reliably and properly execute a 200 yard cross drive?

 

My older dog can execute a 200 yard cross-drive but not without me sweating my butt off !!! LOL

 

My youngest dog is not there yet ... I just got him a couple months ago.

 

To put this in perspective for everyone ... I will compete with my Bree dog in AKC, AHBA, and ASCA and will consistently win or at least place in the top 3 at the highest levels. Then I'll go compete in USBCHA trials and get my butt handed to me ... I'll complete the course but it won't be pretty !!! LOL

 

I just now moved to Open and my shed is really not pretty... LOL

 

I do enjoy the people and will bitch about weak dogs winning in AKC as much as I will bitch about someone winning Open in USBCHA because of who he/she is or because it's an arena trial.

 

I'm going to keep trialing in USBCHA because it makes me a better handler and it pushes my dog to improve.

[D Strickland]

Dave, is your open dog running open in field trials or just arena trials?

 

I hate arena trials ..... but I have trialed in small arenas before. For me to trial in open fields I have to drive a few hours and that's fine - just not readily accessible. I hate arena trials in any venue.

[Diana A]

 

Having a centralized location with links to information on ABCA breeders would be very helpful, even if it's just a listing and some basic information and not any kind of certification.

 

 

To follow up on this a bit, I did a web search on Border Collie Breeder and this is what pops up. Notice what comes up first on the list. It sure would be nice if ABCA could show up here.

 

 

 

All Results1-10 of 2,540,000 results· Advanced

 

BCSA: Breeder Referral List

All of the following are members in good standing with BCSA and agree to abide by the BCSA Constitution & Bylaws, as well as the BCSA Code of Ethics.

www.bordercolliesociety.com/BC_Info/Breeder_Referral/breederdir.htm · Cached page

 

BCSA: Breeder Referral Program

BC BREEDER REFERRAL CENTRAL. The Border Collie Breeder Referral Program was organized as a service to the Border Collie community, Border Collie breeders and buyers.

www.bordercolliesociety.com/index_breedrefer.htm · Cached page

 

Red-Dawn Border Collies

Many of our border collie puppies go to agility homes, both highly competitive and casual agility competitors. Our dogs are responsive, fast on courses, willing to follow ...

www.reddawnborders.com · Cached page

 

Border Collie puppies, Border Collie breeder with puppies for sale ...

Border Collie breeder, border collie puppies, dogs, pups, Border Collie kennel, studs, pedigrees, colors and lots more

gforcebordercollies.com · Cached page

 

Border Collie Dog Breeders At PuppySites.Com

Border Collie Dog and Puppy Breeder website listings at PuppySites.Com. If you are looking for a Border Collie dog or puppy, visit us!

www.puppysites.com/breeds/bordercollie/breeder.shtml · Cached page

 

Hob Nob Border collies The competitive edge

Hob Nob border collies have earned the prestigious ROMX award from the Border Collie Society of America! click here to see the Hob Nob border collies that have achieved this award ...

www.jandemellobordercollie.com · Cached page

 

BORDER COLLIE puppies for sale, breeders and dog breed information

Border Collie Puppies for sale and Border Collie Breeders Directory

www.breeders.net/BorderCollie.html · Cached page

 

Border Collie Breeders List

General. Competing. Training. Dog Finder. BORDER COLLIE BREEDERS. Welcome to the Border Collie Breeders directory of the stockdog server. The stockdog server would like to ...

www.stockdog.com/breeders/bc.htm · Cached page

 

Contact Point Border Collies

The performance Border Collie is our specialty. Contact Point Border ... Karen Moureaux is the breeder of Contact Point Border Collies and has owned Border Collies since ...

www.bordercollie.tv/index.html · Cached page

[brndlbc]

So you get to brag about something ridiculous and meaningless -- and that's a good thing?

 

Here again, subjectivity comes into play. Just because something is meaningless to you, regardless of how you try to justify it, doesn't mean that it is to another person.

[Laurae]

Dave, is your open dog running open in field trials or just arena trials?

I hate arena trials ..... but I have trialed in small arenas before. For me to trial in open fields I have to drive a few hours and that's fine - just not readily accessible. I hate arena trials in any venue.

 

I may just be slow this morning--I haven't had my coffee yet--but are you saying you run your open dog in the open class at field trials? You haven't actually answered that question.

 

And, for what it's worth, pretty much everyone west of the Mississippi has to drive at least a few hours to compete in field trials. Many of us have to drive a good several.

 

I competed in a big indoor arena trial this weekend. It was absolutely a completely different experience from trialing in field trials. And there were definitely some competitors there who trial only in arena trials.

[Laurae]

Here again, subjectivity comes into play. Just because something is meaningless to you, regardless of how you try to justify it, doesn't mean that it is to another person.

 

 

Oh, good lord. How many times does someone have to say this? The titles are meaningless as indicators of a dog's accomplishment on stock. It's only subjective if you fantasize that the low level the AKC sets the bar for its program is any kind of test of a working border collie's ability. If a weekend warrior wins a local softball game, he can brag about his ribbon, but it is an irrelevant (and, honestly, a meaningless) accomplishment for those in the major leagues. It might mean the world to him, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not nearly as difficult an accomplishment as winning a major league game. That is not subjective.

[D Strickland]

I got to wondering why so many people are really getting animated about this so I went and read my initial posts. Ooops !!!!!

 

Again, my brain didn't convey to my fingers what I was trying to say.

 

My posts are simply me playing "Devil's Advocate" .... those of you that know me have seen me do this many times before.

 

This whole conversation got started with me trying to find a way for my puppy buyers to NOT register with AKC and has led to this tread.

 

I don't take anything personally, which is why I usually play "devil's advocate" and REALLY get into the role I'm playing.

 

I am going to start another tread called "Dual Registering" and would like to move the conversation to that one.

 

Don't y'all worry ... I've not changed my mind ... I'm still not competing in AKC, I'm not registering the sire of the litter with AKC, and I'm NOT registering with AKC. If the puppy buyers want to register with AKC I really can't stop them - which is sad.

[Root Beer]

It might mean the world to him, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not nearly as difficult an accomplishment as winning a major league game. That is not subjective.

 

Actually, I would consider a major league player who still fully appreciated the accomplishments of a non-professional, and regarded those accomplishments as meaningful, as the most classy and accomplished player of them all.

 

I consider such an attitude one of the greatest marks of a true champion, regardless of discipline. One who can accomplish something that is "more difficult" and then wholeheartedly find the efforts and achievements of those at every level to be meaningful is the person gets my respect.

 

That has no bearing on breeding decisions, of course. But the whole "titles as meaningless" thing. It really is a personal point of view thing. So yes, it's subjective.

[Laurae]

Actually, I would consider a major league player who still fully appreciated the accomplishments of a non-professional, and regarded those accomplishments as meaningful, as the most classy and accomplished player of them all.

 

I consider such an attitude one of the greatest marks of a true champion, regardless of discipline. One who can accomplish something that is "more difficult" and then wholeheartedly find the efforts and achievements of those at every level to be meaningful is the person gets my respect.

 

That has no bearing on breeding decisions, of course. But the whole "titles as meaningless" thing. It really is a personal point of view thing. So yes, it's subjective.

 

So, would you regard a more difficult title to obtain as more difficult?

 

I love the I'm-great-you're-great-we're-all-winners attitude. I guess it means that my dog's DQ in the intermediate class of an arena trial on Saturday is just as impressive (to me!) as Patrick Shannahan's Riggs winning the USBCHA National Finals last year! Awesome! I rule!

[bcnewe2]

outrunbc: To put this in perspective for everyone ... I will compete with my Bree dog in AKC, AHBA, and ASCA and will consistently win or at least place in the top 3 at the highest levels. Then I'll go compete in USBCHA trials and get my butt handed to me ... I'll complete the course but it won't be pretty !!! LOL

 

 

then your next post goes on to say that you are just playing devils advocate and you don't or won't run in AKC or registar your dogs ack.

 

I'm confused...which is it? do you still trial in AKC, AHBA and ASCA? or only USBCHA?

[Blackdawgs]

So, would you regard a more difficult title to obtain as more difficult?

 

I love the I'm-great-you're-great-we're-all-winners attitude. I guess it means that my dog's DQ in the intermediate class of an arena trial on Saturday is just as impressive (to me!) as Patrick Shannahan's Riggs winning the USBCHA National Finals last year! Awesome! I rule!

 

When you see someone with a title (or even competing in whatever venue), you never know the obstacles that the person and their dog had to overcome to get there. There are dogs in the world (one of mine included) for which the obtainment of even a novice title (agility in my dog's instance) would be a monumental achievement.

 

While I appreciate (and fully support) the need to keep the genes of all but the top dogs out of the gene pool, denigrating the achievements of a dog/human team is unfair.

[Diana A]

The value of titles depends entirely on what's required to earn them. A title that means you won the National Sheepdog or Cattledog Finals is a meaningful title for a stockdog. A title requiring the earning of 500 Open points within a one year period would be a meaningful title. A title requiring that you get around a novice course without killing any sheep doesn't mean anything. I think the real issue with AKC titles isn't that they're titles, but that none of them require an extremely high level of ability to earn. They can't really put border collies to a true test because it's an all breed system and if they made it harder the other breeds would be so outclassed there'd be an uprising.

[Eileen Stein]

So you get to brag about something ridiculous and meaningless -- and that's a good thing?

Here again, subjectivity comes into play. Just because something is meaningless to you, regardless of how you try to justify it, doesn't mean that it is to another person.

 

I was responding to someone who posted that titles are "ridiculous and meaningless," accepting his premise. My response to you (which you have not replied to) is in post #193.