Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 ASCA is not the AKC. Apples and oranges, as far as damage to the breed is concerned. There are some that are pretty upset as to where the ASCA Aussie is going. When we were at Platte for the Cattledog trial a handler came in from Ohio, gave the border collies a run for their money in the arena format in the Open class, did a really good job both on cattle and on sheep. They told me that they have a new organization they are promoting for the aussies. www.wasadogs.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Clarify for me, if USBCHA sanctions a trial is has to be USBCHA format? Correct? As in proper outruns, driving requirements etc? There is no USBCHA format from a sanctioning standpoint. They can be open field, arena, judged, point/time, time only. Any type of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Goes to show you how little I follow the trial/sport world! My exposure was mainly to ranch and working dogs. I guess I was always under the impression that if USBCHA sanctioned implied a higher level of difficulty as to speak. So would it be one way to start to have a minimum requirement for USBCHA trials? Would that discourage a club like the AKC from seeking to include it since it would probably limit the dogs that could actually compete? Or is that naive thinking on my part? Off to read the rules and stuff...may be gone a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 The handlers themselves keep the level of difficulty high, or over time in a given area will make it higher. Once again, if a minimum was in place by USBCHA it would stop the cross over, once again we would have never gone this direction but instead went with ASCA/AKC or AHBA. Also, take into consideration the real work, there are some areas that have never seen a USBCHA trial, where the real work is all in small lots, alleys and pens. If the first one that is put on in that area is way far and beyond the abilities of the people/dogs in that area I doubt you will ever see one produced in that area and over time the number of trials we have will continue to decrease as event producers retire out. As it is now a group can start small with lower requirements, smaller areas and over time expand to bigger fields, provided they are readily available. IMO, the ability of the handlers and the dogs dictate the quality of work not the course. You can have a trial on a small course with impecable work if the dogs and handlers are top notch but at the same time you could have completely horrid work on a big course if the handlers and dogs are poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 > So in theory, after a quick read of the 'Trial Approval Form' on the USBCHA website, that anyone, including a AKC/ASCA/AHBA trial organizer could submit and receive approval and sanctioning for a trial with points counting towards Finals. Which could also at the same time, have Kclub sanctioning & be run/judged on their little arena course? NO. Rule 2 of the USBCHA Rules provides as follows: A. These rules and regulations apply only to HA sanctioned trials and approved events. B. New trial hosts, as well as existing hosts, must apply for sanctioning to the HA Secretary at least thirty (30) days prior to the trial entry opening date. They must specify the number of trials to be offered in each sanctioned class (e.g., 2 Open trials and 2 Nursery trials). If the HA Secretary deems it necessary, an Approval Trial Committee will review the request and either approve or disapprove. Errors or omissions by the trial host may be waived by the Trial Approval Committee and their decision will be final. All trial information must be published thirty (30) days prior to the trial opening date on the USBCHA website for Upcoming Trials. Trial information should include trial name and dates, contact name, phone number, email or web site address, and location.. Upon request, the HA may furnish local district mailing addresses to the trial host. . . . . H. Trials hosted or sponsored by, affiliated with, or benefiting any organization which advocates or supports conformation breeding or showing of Border Collies, and trials held in conjunction with any event sanctioned or sponsored by such an organization, are ineligible for sanctioning by the USBCHA. As regards AKC getting sanction for a trial, or holding one of their trials along with a USBCHA trial, note Section H. As regards the format of trials, I think it's fair to say that the sanctioning of arena trials is somewhat controversial within the HA, and from time to time proposals are made to discontinue sanctioning arena trials, or to not accept any new arena trials for sanction. It's my understanding that most of the sanctioned arena trials are old established trials, and it may be that they are kept on for sentimental reasons, or just out of inertia. I have not seen any movement toward making USBCHA sanctioned trials easier -- on the contrary, during the time I've been around they've gotten steadily more demanding. HA folks do like the tradition of not regulating the format of trials, but I think if the association were to find it was receiving a bunch of applications for sanction of new trials that were smaller or easier than the norm, it would trigger a strong reaction, and either minimum standards for trials would be imposed or the Trial Approval Committee would become more active in monitoring trials for approval/disapproval of sanction. I understand Deb's point about how having easy trials sucks people in, but I don't agree with it. If competitors want to "start small with lower requirements," let them enter or put on ASCA or AHBA or unsanctioned trials. If the time ever comes that they want to run to a higher standard, let them enter or put on USBCHA trials. If they never want to enter trials with a higher standard, so be it. I personally would hate to see HA trials become as easy as ASCA, AHBA or (heaven forbid) AKC trials, and would strongly oppose the election of any candidate for director who considered that okay. To the best of my knowledge there are no USBCHA sanctioned arena trials anywhere near me. The only one I know of in the east is in Maine, although there could be one or two I don't know about. I have certainly never seen one, and they are certainly not the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I suppose I shouldn't bother sending in the sanctioning request for our one Iowa Sheepdog Trial since it is a point/time arena format and is at the Iowa Sheep Festival and tell the Iowa Sheep Industry that the financial support that they are willing to offer to help attract better handlers via the sanctioning (which it did last year) is not necissary, since there is no open field access. If it hadn't been for the rain we would have been in excess of 60 entries as opposed to the 28 the year before prior to USBCHA sanctioning, last year was the first that it was sanctioned. We would prefer having the trial out in a open field, but there is no field available at the location that would allow the trial to be safely held, only a nice big arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 let them enter or put on ASCA or AHBA or unsanctioned trials. If the time ever comes that they want to run to a higher standard, let them enter or put on USBCHA trials. If they never want to enter trials with a higher standard, so be it What do you consider to be the "Higher Standard"? It would be interesting to see how many sanctioned trials actually meet that standard once defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I suppose I shouldn't bother sending in the sanctioning request for our one Iowa Sheepdog Trial since it is a point/time arena format and is at the Iowa Sheep Festival and tell the Iowa Sheep Industry that the financial support that they are willing to offer to help attract better handlers via the sanctioning (which it did last year) is not necissary, since there is no open field access. If it hadn't been for the rain we would have been in excess of 60 entries as opposed to the 28 the year before prior to USBCHA sanctioning, last year was the first that it was sanctioned. Why shouldn't you bother? If you got sanctioning last year, you'll probably get it again this year. In any case, I have no say in the matter. IMO (which counts for very little) a trial like this should not be a USBCHA sanctioned Open trial. Sure, HA sanctioning attracts more handlers, but to me this is a trial that would be more suitable for sanction by your local/regional association as a ranch or pro-novice level trial. ETA: There is a very large Sheep and Wool Festival here in MD each year. It would be nice to have a sheepdog trial held in connection with it, but there is no suitable field available, only an arena. So instead, there are several demos scheduled, in which Nancy Starkey ably shows and explains the use of border collies in managing sheep. What do you consider to be the "Higher Standard"? It would be interesting to see how many sanctioned trials actually meet that standard once defined. Well, you were the one who spoke of avoiding beginning with trials that are "way far and beyond the abilities of the people/dogs in that area," and instead progressing from those with "lower requirements, smaller areas" to "bigger fields." I took that as an acknowledgment that the field trials which are the norm in the Open class are more demanding (a higher standard) than arena trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Well, you were the one who spoke of avoiding beginning with trials that are "way far and beyond the abilities of the people/dogs in that area," and instead progressing from those with "lower requirements, smaller areas" to "bigger fields." I took that as an acknowledgment that the field trials which are the norm in the Open class are more demanding (a higher standard) than arena trials. Arena trials can have varing degrees of difficulty also. God knows we hear about it everytime a cross over handler complains that a 200 ft outrun with a unassisted fetch is too far. Then there is the novice that goes to the open sheepdog trials whose dog can't drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 What do you consider to be the "Higher Standard"? It would be interesting to see how many sanctioned trials actually meet that standard once defined. For me a higher standard for sheep trials includes *judging.* I recognize that many folks use their dogs in smaller spaces on a daily basis, but it seems to me that AHBA has a trial program that addresses that type of work, and if one thinks that the majority of folks in their area would prefer that sort of trial, then that's what you offer. As has been noted in many other discussions that come down to this, if someone is gaining points toward finals only in arena trials (assuming it's possible to garner enough points that way), then they are likely kidding themselves about their and their dogs' abilities compared to teams who run in judged open field courses. I've often wondered if the most important thing to come out of winning arena trials is bragging rights. ("I won an open trial.") J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Arena trials cam be fun and even challenging, but they in no way shape or form compare to a field trial. Granted all field trials are not created equal, but it might be a good idea to compete in some larger field trials( un dogged sheep large course) before making comparisons. I say sheep because most cattle trials are not in large fields, or on un dogged or lighlty dogged cattle. The national finals being the exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 There is a very large Sheep and Wool Festival here in MD each year. It would be nice to have a sheepdog trial held in connection with it, but there is no suitable field available, only an arena. So instead, there are several demos scheduled, in which Nancy Starkey ably shows and explains the use of border collies in managing sheep. Different situation, I would suspect that there are open field sheepdog trials in the area. We have none at this time. Only arena trials. There is one handler that is talking about putting one on and we have another that is thinking about putting one on, but as of right now and as of last year we have none. The two years before we had 1 USBCHA field trial hosted by a AKC person and one held on a baseball diamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 To the best of my knowledge there are no USBCHA sanctioned arena trials anywhere near me. The only one I know of in the east is in Maine, although there could be one or two I don't know about. I have certainly never seen one, and they are certainly not the norm. The VA State Fair SDT is an arena trial, usually held in the open horse arena (the largest arena on the fairgrounds, which is by no means very large, probably about the size of the arena Nancy does demos in at MSWF). The venue changed to Meadow Farm this year, but I still believe the trial was held in an arena. This trial has been held for a couple of decades, so kind of fits the "grandfathered in" idea of sanctioning. I don't think anyone who runs dogs there has any illusions about what it means WRT, say, running at the National Finals or the Bluegrass or Meeker. When I was running in novice, the attitude seemed to be more about go run your dog and enjoy the fair (I know of one person who entered a dog just to get in to the fair, since the trial entry was lower than fair entry and came with a complimentary pass to the fair).... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I would add that nothing makes you a better handler than going to the post, any post. If you want to be a better handler at cattle trials then enter sheep trials. You will most often be tested to a higher level, and you will get better. You may then be called a gaspppp "sheepdog person" or even have your dogs be called "sheepdogs" shudder. the dogs don't care what they are called, and as long as you smile when you pick up the check for placing... you wont either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 You may then be called a gaspppp "sheepdog person" or even have your dogs be called "sheepdogs" shudder. the dogs don't care what they are called, and as long as you smile when you pick up the check for placing... you wont either. Oh no, not that!!! eta, some in this area are still trying to figure out why I would spend the money to send my young dog that is already trialling on cattle to a trainer that has no cattle, only big open fields and sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Arena trials can have varing degrees of difficulty also. God knows we hear about it everytime a cross over handler complains that a 200 ft outrun with a unassisted fetch is too far. Then there is the novice that goes to the open sheepdog trials whose dog can't drive I'm talking about the quality of the trial as a test of the dog's abilities, not the quality of the dogs or handlers who happen to enter. Different situation, I would suspect that there are open field sheepdog trials in the area. We have none at this time. Only arena trials. There is one handler that is talking about putting one on and we have another that is thinking about putting one on, but as of right now and as of last year we have none. The two years before we had 1 USBCHA field trial hosted by a AKC person and one held on a baseball diamond Yes, we do have open field sheepdog trials in this area. We have them because we put on our trials in fields, not arenas. You have fields in Iowa, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 The VA State Fair SDT is an arena trial, usually held in the open horse arena (the largest arena on the fairgrounds, which is by no means very large, probably about the size of the arena Nancy does demos in at MSWF). The venue changed to Meadow Farm this year, but I still believe the trial was held in an arena. This trial has been held for a couple of decades, so kind of fits the "grandfathered in" idea of sanctioning. I don't think anyone who runs dogs there has any illusions about what it means WRT, say, running at the National Finals or the Bluegrass or Meeker. When I was running in novice, the attitude seemed to be more about go run your dog and enjoy the fair (I know of one person who entered a dog just to get in to the fair, since the trial entry was lower than fair entry and came with a complimentary pass to the fair).... Thanks for posting this, Julie. I did suspect that the VA State Fair trial might be an arena trial, but it is not a trial I have ever entered or attended. I agree with you that a higher standard for sheepdog trials includes judging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Just a week ago, I went to a trial (USBCHA cattle), that also was running a sheep trial at the same time. The sheep trial was an AHBA ranch course (which I always think are great fun), but it was also sanctioned as a USBCHA Open trial. Then, they also held a USBCHA regular-style course in the arena, again for points. The outrun was less than 100 yards, the drives tiny, the sheep were really dogged (used a LOT for AKC and AHBA trials, with all breeds of dogs), and so were challenging to shed, unless you got one of the better groups of sheep (yes, the sheep were put into "official" groups, and stayed in those same groups all weekend). Sigh. So we had some Open handlers who generally don't fare well at our big field trials who earned several points on either the ranch course, or the mini course. Bragging rights, I'm sure. We had a guy a few years back who had put on a series of arena cattle trials (his arena, I believe), and earned enough points (with his non-border collies) to come to the cattle finals that spring. If I recall correctly, his dogs (he ran two of them, I believe) never found the cattle--they were not capable of doing the outrun. I don't think he even stayed around for his second run with either dog--packed up and went home. So, sure, it's great to be able to say one "qualified for the Finals," but can you really be at least somewhat competitive when you get there? A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Just a week ago, I went to a trial (USBCHA cattle), that also was running a sheep trial at the same time. The sheep trial was an AHBA ranch course (which I always think are great fun), but it was also sanctioned as a USBCHA Open trial. Then, they also held a USBCHA regular-style course in the arena, again for points. The outrun was less than 100 yards, the drives tiny, the sheep were really dogged (used a LOT for AKC and AHBA trials, with all breeds of dogs), and so were challenging to shed, unless you got one of the better groups of sheep (yes, the sheep were put into "official" groups, and stayed in those same groups all weekend). Sigh. This really makes for depressing reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I don't think anyone who runs dogs there has any illusions about what it means WRT, say, running at the National Finals or the Bluegrass or Meeker. Same here, how many Iowa handlers do you see entered at the Sheepdog Finals that run in our arena trials. I know of one that goes to Meeker, he says that he enjoys it and has gone to other open field trials so his expirence is not limited to what we have avilable here. If handlers get thinking about Finals we push them on down to the Missouri fields, usually cures em. We try to keep the sheepdog trials that we have are fun, we sanctioned the Sheep Festival in an effort to draw more handlers and it worked, which also is better for the spectators compared to who they would have to watch. In all reality there has been talk of not allowing Novice at some of the festival/fair trials as the work is sometimes shaky. The Iowa State Fair, which is not sanctioned with USBCHA does not offer Novice. It really shows a flaw in the thinking of having the arena trials as ranch or pro-novice, the quality of work is going to be lower. I would rather keep it Open and have as good of quality as we can attact. We still required driving and sheds, where as the p/n has no shed and the novice has no required drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 This really makes for depressing reading. Even more depressing to have spent a LOT on entries, and showed up expecting a real competition. A lot of money and four days of my life I'll never get back. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Just a week ago, I went to a trial (USBCHA cattle), that also was running a sheep trial at the same time. The sheep trial was an AHBA ranch course (which I always think are great fun), but it was also sanctioned as a USBCHA Open trial. Anna, Are you saying the ranch (AHBA) course was also sanctioned as a USBCHA open course, or were there two separate courses? Debbie, There are some trials around this area (and by around, I mean within a state or two) held on fields not owned by the trial organizers. Someone sets up a handling system, and then they put temporary fencing where needed (roadside, spectator side) and hold a trial. There's one trial held on the cross country field of a horse farm, which camping also on the field and not much fencing to speak of, except for fenced areas for the sheep to stay in at night, and another held at a rural heritage site, where snow fence is put up just for the trial. So I'm not quite understanding how it's impossible to have field trials in Iowa. I wonder if it's because no one *wants* to do a field trial, since arena trials are within everyone's comfort zone? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 You have fields in Iowa, don't you? Depends on where you look, it was interesting to hear the statement from a Missouri handler that came up to sheep festival last year, he said "wow, all we saw was corn for miles and miles, no wonder you don't have field trials". Go check out the USBCHA Sheepdog Point rankings and see how many Iowa handlers are on it, Nebraska too for that matter. Then compare it to the Cattledog Point rankings, it should tell you the tale as to why there are not any open field trials here, few trialers that run in the open field trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Julie: Yes, the AHBA ranch course was also the USBCHA course for Open points. You had to let the secretary know which class you were running (or both, if you wanted to work toward the AHBA title as well as try to earn Open points), so your one run would/could count in both venues. I think entrants paid a few bucks more for USBCHA to cover the sanctioning fees. Then, after that trial had finished (all three AHBA levels, plus a few goat runs thrown in), there was an Open USBCHA mini course in the arena, too. So two trials for Open points each day, different courses, but both in the same arena. Trial ran Sat., Sun, and Mon., so lots of points possible. At least 20+ dogs in each Open class. A regular gazillion-ring circus (and don't even get me started on the cattle trial portion)! Deb: I certainly understand that your fields are in crops much of the time, but, by comparison, we have so little open space here in SoCal (I mean, if it's open space, there needs to be a new housing tract or at least a strip mall there!), we even manage to have a few field trials down here. Some aren't huge, but have their own challenges, and the few fields there are, are only available certain times of the year (before planting, etc.), but, seems like y'all could come up with *something.* A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 y'all could come up with *something.* Anna, what do you think would have happened at that trial you were at if everyone was our in a big open field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.