Borderlines

[D Strickland]

I agree that the AKC is changing how dogs work and look but I also think that USBCHA is also. There are many people that trial only in USBCHA arena trials - which are no better than the AKC A course. Not everyone tests for eyes and hips .....

 

So... from what I've seen the ABCA/USBCHA and the AKC have faults ... other than conformation and the "crazy" agility or flyball dogs there really is nothing wrong with the AKC program....

 

***** PS... I am putting on my flame retardant suit now.....

[brndlbc]

 

***** PS... I am putting on my flame retardant suit now.....

 

I'll get some water

[stockdogranch]

There are many people that trial only in USBCHA arena trials

Many? How many? How many of those with points toward Finals trial in arena-only trials? What percentage of those with points fall into this category? Who are these people and where are these arena-only trials? Sorry, but I teach college students to write, and one of the major things I always urge them to do is to back up a statement such as this with evidence.

 

Then there's this gem:

there really is nothing wrong with the AKC program....

REALLY?!?!?!?! So since there's nothing wrong with their program, do you compete in their trials? Have you earned some of their meaningless titles? And do you think that as long as someone "tests for hips and eyes" their breeding program (based on whatever criteria) is fine?

 

Here we are trying to figure out how to educate the masses "out there," while it seems even some on these boards don't "get it."

A

ETA: Nevermind. I just checked out your website, and see that you have ACK titles on the bitch you recently bred, so she must be dual registered. You also have her USBCHA "accomplishments" listed there--a win in Novice. Have you ever read the "Read This First" at the top of the page?

[Sue R]

I was quite aware of a situation where individuals were getting points (in both cattle and sheep) in arena trials only in an area. All I had to say was that if any of them were to use those qualifying points to enter either National Final, it would be a shame that they would take a competition spot that should have gone to a really more qualified contestant team, but they'd certainly make a fool of themselves and their dogs on a real, National-level trial field. Just gaining points is no indicator of true qualification, if the points are not earned on suitable stock, a suitable course, and with suitable competition.

 

And that series of arena trials has since fallen by the wayside.

[brndlbc]

..... earned some of their meaningless titles?

 

I have had the honor, and I mean honor, to watch a young girl participate in agility over the last few years. I only get to see her once a year but she has been a true inspiration as the very first time I saw her, she wore a body brace that went from hip to shoulder. I am not sure what exactly what this girls issues are but it seems as they will be life long as she still has extreme mobility problems. She was probably 7/8 years old the first time I saw her so now would be in her early teens. Her coordination/mobility are still restricted. Regardless, her determination is fantastic and she keeps at it. Each year she and her dog seem to be another level up the proverbial ladder, obviously gaining titles along the way. These titles may be meaningless to some just for the fact that they are AKC in origin but, I am sure that to this young lady, these meaningless titles mean the world. "Meaningless" is highly subjective.

[Pam Wolf]

Titles are meaningless for the dog's abilities. The titles are for a handler's accomplishment and for advertising purposes but they are meaningless when it comes to the 'quality' of the Border Collie for working stock (with the exception of the National/International and World Trials or similar)

 

I think you will find few who do not support those who enjoy working with their dogs, this is about HOW those dogs are bred.

 

And yes, in some areas arena trials prevail and people do get admission to USBCHA finals via them-this is a long ongoing issue.

[toney]

I have had the honor, and I mean honor, to watch a young girl participate in agility over the last few years. I only get to see her once a year but she has been a true inspiration as the very first time I saw her, she wore a body brace that went from hip to shoulder. I am not sure what exactly what this girls issues are but it seems as they will be life long as she still has extreme mobility problems. She was probably 7/8 years old the first time I saw her so now would be in her early teens. Her coordination/mobility are still restricted. Regardless, her determination is fantastic and she keeps at it. Each year she and her dog seem to be another level up the proverbial ladder, obviously gaining titles along the way. These titles may be meaningless to some just for the fact that they are AKC in origin but, I am sure that to this young lady, these meaningless titles mean the world. "Meaningless" is highly subjective.

 

 

I beleive that most readers will agree that the "meaningless titles" statement was directed at using these minimal standards to determine breeding worth, not an individual's pride in the accomplishments themselves.

[geonni banner]

I have had the honor, and I mean honor, to watch a young girl participate in agility over the last few years. I only get to see her once a year but she has been a true inspiration as the very first time I saw her, she wore a body brace that went from hip to shoulder. I am not sure what exactly what this girls issues are but it seems as they will be life long as she still has extreme mobility problems. She was probably 7/8 years old the first time I saw her so now would be in her early teens. Her coordination/mobility are still restricted. Regardless, her determination is fantastic and she keeps at it. Each year she and her dog seem to be another level up the proverbial ladder, obviously gaining titles along the way. These titles may be meaningless to some just for the fact that they are AKC in origin but, I am sure that to this young lady, these meaningless titles mean the world. "Meaningless" is highly subjective.

 

I think the "meaningless titles" may have referred to AKC Herding titles. While I don't support the AKC in any of their venues, including Agility, the discussion was about AKC herding tests and competitions, and how they produce "cheap champions" that would never hold up to a more rigorous trial set-up, or the demands of an actual working-for-a-living stock dog.

[brndlbc]

I think the "meaningless titles" may have referred to AKC Herding titles. While I don't support the AKC in any of their venues, including Agility, the discussion was about AKC herding tests and competitions, and how they produce "cheap champions" that would never hold up to a more rigorous trial set-up, or the demands of an actual working-for-a-living stock dog.

 

My comments were about titles in general and not specific to any one type venue. The girl was for reference only. I should have been more specific. That said, had I seen the girl doing AKC herding, I would still feel the same way.

[Eileen Stein]

Back in the day it wasn't that big a problem. Agility made the BC much more popular. AKC forbid BC's from playing in their herding trials while leaving agility, obedience and tracking open to them.

 

Reading this startled me, because my recollection was that border collies were barred from agility as well as herding before recognition. But when I went back to look, I see that the AKC only started its agility program in 1994, the same year that AKC recognized the border collie. In the first year of AKC agility, only 23 trials were held altogether, according to its website. It was such a little deal at that time, that probably nobody focused on it at all (including me, obviously). OTOH, AKC started its herding program in 1989, and so there was much comment about the fact that border collies could not participate.

 

And yes there was a slight blurring of the lines. Early on the USBCC requested that people breed every other generation to working stock, but within a year or two that request changed to breed EVERY generation to working stock. The USBCC started in response to an effort by Janet Larson to get the BC accepted into the AKC coffers in the early 1980's. It was at the time made up primarily of obedience competitors who saw the importance fo keeping the breed as working dogs. But for the most the obedience dogs quickly became a line of their own and the two seldom crossed. People did not try to sell obedience dogs as stock dogs. Now if the dog has an HIC (Herding Instinct Certification)they will pass it off as good working stock. Breeding agility dogs is no better than breeding obedience dogs-basically the same. We were able to see (30 years ago) the results of non selection for working ability and it was diminished in as much as one generation and lost in 2.

 

Reading the sentence I've put in boldface really startled me too, but mainly because I misunderstood what you were saying. To make sure no one else takes it the wrong way, I want to emphasize that the USBCC was opposed to AKC recognition of the border collie from its very inception, and was founded to counter any efforts to gain AKC recognition, as well as to support border collie owners and advocate for responsible breeding. And I also should clarify that the USBCC was founded in 1975.

[Eileen Stein]

I agree that the AKC is changing how dogs work and look but I also think that USBCHA is also. There are many people that trial only in USBCHA arena trials - which are no better than the AKC A course.

 

How many? And how do they do at the finals?

 

Not everyone tests for eyes and hips

 

What does that have to do with your claim that the USBCHA is changing how dogs work and look? What does it have to do with the USBCHA at all?

 

So... from what I've seen the ABCA/USBCHA and the AKC have faults ... other than conformation and the "crazy" agility or flyball dogs there really is nothing wrong with the AKC program....

 

Everyone has faults. Every organization has faults. The League of Women Voters and the Mafia both have faults. Mother Teresa and Charlie Manson both had faults. Does that mean there is no meaningful difference between them?

[brndlbc]

Mother Teresa..... had faults.

 

Stockdogranch wrote:

 

"Sorry, but I teach college students to write, and one of the major things I always urge them to do is to back up a statement such as this with evidence."

[D Strickland]

PHEEWWW !!! Thank God for that flame retardant suit !!! LOL

 

I agree that the USBCHA program should be the standard - no argument there.

 

In my neck of the woods ( Tulsa, OK ) arena trials, State Fair arena trials, small field trials are more prevalent than big field trials. I don't have any statistics for you .. sorry. I just hate seeing all these people around here selling litter after litter of "working " dogs that only compete at State Fair trials or practice on their herd of 20 sheep.

 

I have competed at the highest levels of all venues, AHBA, ASCA, AKC, and recently started running Open in USBCHA so, unlike some on this list, I have a better understanding of all the different organizations. None of these organizations is perfect.

 

I agree that the AKC is the "evil" empire but I also believe in working my dog and competing to have fun. My bitch is dual registered but my male is not...... yet .... I have working dogs first - I would rather work at setting-out sheep than trial.

 

I respect everyone's opinion and wish everyone would do me the courtesy of respecting mine. I enjoy my dogs and my sheep ... that is why I do it. I've bred one litter in 10 years so I'm definitely not doing this for money.

 

Every organization has something to offer.

 

 

 

Many? How many? How many of those with points toward Finals trial in arena-only trials? What percentage of those with points fall into this cato educate the masses "out there," while it seems even some on these boards don't "get it."

A

ETA: Nevermind. I just checked out your website, and see that you have ACK titles on the bitch you recently bred, so she must be dual registered. You also have her USBCHA "accomplishments" listed there--a win in Novice. Have you ever read the "Read This First" at the top of the page?

[D Strickland]

I think the "meaningless titles" may have referred to AKC .............d up to a more rigorous trial set-up, or the demands of an actual working-for-a-living stock dog.

 

Titles means squat !!! I totally agree.

 

To me an AKC title is equivalent to a USBCHA level of trialling ( ie. one of dogs has a Herding Excellent title in AKC ... and my other dog runs in Open in USBCHA ).

 

Case in point ... A couple years ago I was asked to help a friend of a friend load 50 very angry goats into a trailer. These goats had never seen a dog .. only coyotes ... so I was out-matched with my one dog. I called friends of mine that had two Open trial dogs that had placed in the top third at the big field trials at Knox and MacRae's in Missouri so I called them for help.

 

These two dogs got out looked around and could't understand what to do without drive and cross-drive panels. They were pattern-trained to the course .. the same as many AKC dogs ...

 

My point is that every organization has problems so why can't we all just trial and have fun? Leave the politics to politicians. How much money and time was spent fighting this AKC thing back in the 90's !!??

[MyTDogs]

Dave??? Have you not read the first TEN pages of this thread?

[Eileen Stein]

Mother Teresa..... had faults.

Stockdogranch wrote:

 

"Sorry, but I teach college students to write, and one of the major things I always urge them to do is to back up a statement such as this with evidence."

 

See Hitchens, Christopher, The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice, Verso: 1997.

[D Strickland]

Dave??? Have you not read the first TEN pages of this thread?

 

 

Hi Cindy,

 

I have read all posts and I read The Dog Wars when it came out.

 

I am not arguing that the AKC is bad ... it's a corporation with a bottom line .. of course it's bad !!!

 

What I am trying to say is that the changes that are being noticed in the Border Collie are not only the AKC's fault. Border Collies used to be bred for their working ability ONLY ... now they are being bred for their trialling ability which is bad in itself but it makes it worse when you breed for an insane BC or a "pretty" only BC.

 

I would love for the USBCHA to come up with Ranch courses which could not be "pattern trained". Something practical that would make the dog and handler think on their feet - like they should be doing -- instead of following the same pattern every time. That would help people train and breed for smarter dogs.

[Eileen Stein]

I have had the honor, and I mean honor, to watch a young girl participate in agility over the last few years. I only get to see her once a year but she has been a true inspiration as the very first time I saw her, she wore a body brace that went from hip to shoulder. I am not sure what exactly what this girls issues are but it seems as they will be life long as she still has extreme mobility problems. She was probably 7/8 years old the first time I saw her so now would be in her early teens. Her coordination/mobility are still restricted. Regardless, her determination is fantastic and she keeps at it. Each year she and her dog seem to be another level up the proverbial ladder, obviously gaining titles along the way. These titles may be meaningless to some just for the fact that they are AKC in origin but, I am sure that to this young lady, these meaningless titles mean the world. "Meaningless" is highly subjective.

 

Suppose this girl were competing in a program that did not have titles. Suppose she kept on year after year, with fantastic determination, getting better as she went. Would her accomplishments be meaningless because she got no title for them?

 

It's not the title that's meaningful.

[D Strickland]

 

It's not the title that's meaningful.

 

I think the title gives you short term goals and bragging rights - regardless how ridiculous and meaningless they are in real life.

[Eileen Stein]

My point is that every organization has problems so why can't we all just trial and have fun?

 

By using the word "so," you seem to be suggesting that "why can't we all just trial and have fun?" logically follows from "every organization has problems." But it doesn't.

 

I also have trouble with the logic of "I agree that the AKC is the 'evil' empire but I also believe in working my dog and competing to have fun." And with this: "I am not arguing that the AKC is bad ... it's a corporation with a bottom line .. of course it's bad !!!"

 

What I understand you to be saying is that you consider this organization to be evil and bad, but having fun is very important to you, and therefore you will continue contributing to enhancing their bottom line for the sake of your fun. Is that it?

 

And if someone seems disgusted by this, you'll claim that other organizations have problems too, so that makes it okay.

[Eileen Stein]

I think the title gives you short term goals and bragging rights - regardless how ridiculous and meaningless they are in real life.

 

So you get to brag about something ridiculous and meaningless -- and that's a good thing?

[D Strickland]

So you get to brag about something ridiculous and meaningless -- and that's a good thing?

 

Any brag is a good brag to me !!

 

.... the difference is that I know that I have a good working dog first ... not a pattern trained dog that was given a title or a buckle for just showing up.

 

Fishermen brag about their fish ... Hunters brag about their latest kill.... they even get their "brag" stuffed and mounted on their wall. It's the same brag whether it was a hard shot or an easy one !!

[Eileen Stein]

Any brag is a good brag to me !!

 

Well, that's the AKC mentality, all right.

[D Strickland]

Any brag is a good brag to me !!

 

 

We are getting off topic here ... I really don't care about titles ... They are a nice brag .. it shows that I compete, in which venue, and at which level.

 

What I said is that I had decided to dual register my dogs. I decided to do this so that I wouldn't burn any bridges. I realize the AKC faults and the USBCHA faults. I will still trial in any venue I want. It's my time and my money ... I will spend it any way I want .... I spent years hating the AKC and it's just ridiculous .... I'm going to keep training and trialling and go back to having fun.

 

Dave S

[geonni banner]

For what it’s worth…

Some of you may wonder why a newbie – completely inexperienced with stock dogs, and the owner of my first Border Collie – feels like sticking her oar in so often to things she has no real history with.

 

I’ve been hanging on the Boards for over a year now, and I’ve become convinced that the working Border Collie is in potential trouble. After reading “The Dog Wars,” and other books, I’m convinced that the AKC is in a position to do real harm to this breed, and may have already harmed it in terms of creating a false picture of what the public imagines this breed to be.

 

I’ve also been exposed to the whole trialing milieu, and I can see that, like horse racing is for Thoroughbreds, trialing is a good proving ground for certain aspects of the abilities of the working stock dog. As some have pointed out there are things that the trial-dog will not have the experience and judgment to handle. But a well-designed trial course can challenge a dog, and showcase its abilities and working style. (Even I can see that it isn’t just a bunch of cookie-cutter sheepdogs doing the same thing the same way.)

 

And like everything else, all sheepdog events are not created equal. Any trial win is not the same as a PhD in stockwork. A win at a trial like the Nationals tells you something valuable about a dog, but does not claim to be a proof that that dog will meet the challenges of the grind of a work-for-a-living stock dog. It says, “This dog did this course on this day better that all the other dogs present.” And while this is a respectable achievement, it is not the same as an AKC Herding Title, which suggests, at least to the uninformed general populace, that this is a Herding Dog, which can do everything a Herding Dog needs to or will ever be expected to do, which is downright misleading and laughable, especially when you look at how little the dog actually has to do to earn said title.