abcollie Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 None? Well, let's "put it this way" ... how many breeds do agility? How many breeds do a open USBCHA course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 None? It definitely takes a skill-set, but one that can be provided by most any fit, healthy, well-adjusted dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 It definitely takes a skill-set, but one that can be provided by most any fit, healthy, well-adjusted dog. Thank You LOL, I think of skill set as what the handler trains into the dog, not the inherited characteristics. Simple semantics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 It definitely takes a skill-set, but one that can be provided by most any fit, healthy, well-adjusted dog. How interesting, considering people keep intimating that border collies who do or are bred for agility are anything but well adjusted (crazed, out of control etc). I think it's a little more complicated than that...the reasons so many people select border collies for agility is because they are intelligent and can read a line of travel, learn new behaviours easily, have the work ethic to stick with it, can generally work at a distance well, have the drive to push forward etc. Lots of fit, healthy, well adjusted dogs can play, but that doesn't mean they will excel, or even play reliably. (Wootie is a prime example of this). Agility is not as simple as some people who don't play seem think it is. It's not stockwork, but it's also not just pointing at obstacles and asking your dog to take them - no more than working is "chasing sheep." The herding dogs do tend to do well at it for a variety of reasons, and lots of it, healthy, well adjusted dogs do not do well at it for a variety of reasons. Having said that, I still can't figure out how people breed FOR agility dogs - maybe because I'm not a breeder, but I'm just really not sure what it is they are selecting for, or how they think they can produce dogs who come out of the womb ready to run in the Worlds. I would sometimes really like to know what it is they think they are producing, but we really don't provide an environment here that would be conducive to that discussion. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 How interesting, considering people keep intimating that border collies who do or are bred for agility are anything but well adjusted (crazed, out of control etc). I think it's a little more complicated than that...the reasons so many people select border collies for agility is because they are intelligent and can read a line of travel, learn new behaviours easily, have the work ethic to stick with it, can generally work at a distance well, have the drive to push forward etc. Lots of fit, healthy, well adjusted dogs can play, but that doesn't mean they will excel, or even play reliably. (Wootie is a prime example of this). Agility is not as simple as some people who don't play seem think it is. It's not stockwork, but it's also not just pointing at obstacles and asking your dog to take them - no more than working is "chasing sheep." The herding dogs do tend to do well at it for a variety of reasons, and lots of it, healthy, well adjusted dogs do not do well at it for a variety of reasons. Having said that, I still can't figure out how people breed FOR agility dogs - maybe because I'm not a breeder, but I'm just really not sure what it is they are selecting for, or how they think they can produce dogs who come out of the womb ready to run in the Worlds. I would sometimes really like to know what it is they think they are producing, but we really don't provide an environment here that would be conducive to that discussion. RDM I don't know, if that topic appeared in the Agility, Obedience section I would read it with interest. Not that I think breeding Border Collies for sports is a brilliant idea, but it would be interesting to see what people would say if you posed the question, 'Given the best Border Collie you ever had in Agility, how would you improve upon it, and what if any breed might effect that change?' Would it be another herding breed? My understanding is that Shetland Sheepdogs are often great Agility dogs, but I've also heard people say that about Papillons. Also, I think that there is a difference between people who do Dog Sports for fun only, and those who are strongly motivated to compete hard and win. For the first group of folk I think that any fit, healthy, well adjusted dog would be fine. It might not be the Tiger Woods of Agility, but who cares? (After all, the single most entertaining moment I ever had with my Doberman in Obedience was once when she interpreted my command to retrieve an object over a jump, by walking slowly and deliberately around me three times and giving me a perfect front & finish.) And I suspect the people in the first group far outnumber those in the second group. As for "people (who) keep intimating that border collies who do or are bred for agility are anything but well adjusted (crazed, out of control etc)." We have all seen examples of this, and unfortunately, like in most discussions, people tend to focus on faults, or things we don't like/understand/relate too. A quiet, seemingly sane dog standing ringside doesn't cause people to wonder what's wrong with it or ask why it's behaving that way. So no one says, "Yeah! What about all those mellow dogs at the Agility Match? What's up with that?" I, (and others,) have been at some pains to praise people for getting involved with mutually rewarding activities with their dogs. I am sure that the training involved in producing a competitive dog in any discipline is substantial. And there will certainly be individual dogs or breeds of dogs that will be predisposed to bring a better set of traits to that training/performance venue. But that doesn't alter the fact that the Border Collie's higher calling is stock work. ETA: If you really liked Bulldogs and wanted to breed them for agility you might make changes like longer legs, a less contorted airway, and a long tail for balance. While these would undoubtedly improve the dogs as Agility prospects, they would no longer be Bulldogs - they would lose the traits that define the breed. If you start breeding Border Collies for sports, the same thing will happen. They will cease to be Border Collies, and become something else. And it won't be something that can handle 25 fractious heifers in the back 40, or win the Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Any breed can do agility, but people can't help but notice in the jump heights that border collies run in, they pretty much walk away with all the prizes more than 90% of the time and that most of the time the large dog world team is pretty much exclusively made up of border collies. Saying any breed can do agility is as simplistic as saying any herding breed can herd - that is true if your standards are set low enough, but some do it far better than others. I am increasingly seeing more and more people who started with other breeds but now have border collies. As far as why do people buy or breed for sport dogs - I think it's as simple as people buy what they see and what they know. If you're active in the agility community, you know which dogs do really well and you hear about it if those dogs get bred, and if you're the competitive minded sort, it's pretty tempting to take a pup from the breeding. And if you happen to own one of those dogs who wins alot, it is very tempting to breed that dog because you may already have interested people lining up to buy puppies. And there is some degree of 'agility talent' out there in some dogs. For example there was one dog in my area who got bred a few times and at some point people started noticing that a high percentage of the world team dogs went back to this one particular dog, and that it seemed pretty much anything you bred him to produced top class agility dogs much sought after by world-team-minded competitors. Not just speed but a nice combination of fast acceleration, great turning ability, very fast reflexes, and extreme biddability. So if you're a competitive agility person and you get a chance at one of this dog's pups, vs some unknown stock dog who has never done agility - which is your more sure bet of getting an extremely competitive dog? The agility people just don't see these stock dog litters being shoved in their faces every day like they do with the agility litters and I think it's human nature (and common sense really) to buy a pup from parents who have shown they can do well at the same things they'd like their pup to do well at. Agility doesn't strongly select for thoughtfulness either, so as generations go on, I have no doubt it will be lost and is already being lost in some lines. Agility is more about NOT taking too much time to think - just make a snap decision and GO NOW. There is quite a bit of training involved to do really well, and the dog does need to be able to run at 6+ yards per second while simulatenously focusing on the next obstacle and still reading the nuances of how his handler is moving and react to that movement while still performing the obstacle cleanly. That takes talent and training. But, is that really thinking? I really don't know the answer, because you can't force people to care about something, and ability to work stock isn't an obviously useful trait on the agility course - if the breed is being changed but still getting the new 'agility job' done, there a lot of people out there who are just fine with that. I fell in love with the working side of the border collie the first time I got exposed to it - others see it and shrug and go 'so what'. And, it is not just an AKC problem. USDAA is big and sponsors their own world team each year, there are probably more highly competitive people in that venue than in AKC and the percentage of border collies competing compared to other breeds is much higher than in AKC agility. And don't even get me started on flyball (which is not an AKC sport) and flyball breedings. I often hear about agility dogs coming out of the flyball lines now - which is even more of a mindless activity than agility. As far as registry - back in the pre-dogwars days, didn't ABCA border collies get ILP'd for AKC activities all the time, without a spay/neuter requirement? Ignoring the conformation piece of it for now, is that really all that different a situation than ABCA dogs getting AKC numbers these days to play AKC sports? I think the blurring of lines between AKC and ABCA started back before AKC forced border collies into the breed ring. I know my first border collie came with AIBC registration because both is parents were ILP'd and I got him right about the time true AKC registration became an option. His mother came off the farm but on his father's side he had quite a few generations of breeding for sports (obedience, back in thoe days, since agility was just starting). And that dog already had low enough working ability he never could have made it on even an USBCHA novice course, although he was the most talented obedience dog I probably ever will see in my lifetime. In fact, I suspect this current explosion of agility border collies running in AKC would have happened even if border collies were still back in the old ILP system and the dogwars had never happened. All it took was some time for agility to get off the ground, and then for people to notice that border collies were really good at it. I think it's a separate issue from the whole conformation ring battle entirely. The only difference now really is that the AKC diehards can voluntarily split themselves off from ABCA if they wish and just stick to AKC registration. Back in the ILP days they would have had to stay within the ABCA system. We probably would still have come down to these same discussions, except the question would be deregistering any dog that got an ILP to play AKC sports instead of deregisterign for an actual AKC number. Different paper work, but same breeding issues. Diana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Those dogs/bitched had to be neutered/spayed before an ILP request was submitted anyway. That's still the rule for ILP. Edited - My mistake in believing that ILP of a Border Collie required spay/neuter prior to AKC recognition. Thanks to those who pointed out that that was not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Those dogs/bitched had to be neutered/spayed before an ILP request was submitted anyway. That's still the rule for ILP. I had an ILP bitch that wasn't spayed, but that was when they were in the Miscellaneous Class, not the Herding Group, so I think it was allowed in that circumstance. Nowadays the ILP is a PAL and speuter is a requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Those dogs/bitched had to be neutered/spayed before an ILP request was submitted anyway. That's still the rule for ILP. Yes, that is the case now. It wasn't back then. Back then the miscellaneous class could hold a breed for years and they could be bred and registered with ILP numbers. AKC finally took notice that border collies seemed pretty content to just stay there forever and forced them into full registration, and then changed the whole system of how new breeds get into AKC, now the ILP/PAL is strictly for spayed/neutered dogs who can't get full registration for various reasons (I think foundation stock numbers is how they handle the new breeds now but I'm not involved in those so couldn't say for sure). Although it was different paper work, there were essentially generations of 'AKC registered' border collies around before the dog wars - they just weren't in the breed ring. I guess back then the main concern was conformation, and breeding for obedience etc was okay, or at least not seen as a huge problem. Of course that was before agility came around. Diana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 ETA: If you really liked Bulldogs and wanted to breed them for agility you might make changes like longer legs, a less contorted airway, and a long tail for balance. While these would undoubtedly improve the dogs as Agility prospects, they would no longer be Bulldogs - they would lose the traits that define the breed. Actually, you would be restoring some of the original traits of the breed and undoing the damage that the show ring has inflicted upon them! Bulldogs once had the power, speed, agility and overall fitness require to fight bulls. The show ring contorted them into freaks of nature that can't breath, run, give birth or even mate without assistance. http://www.homebrewedstaffords.com/images/Bull%20baiting%201820.jpg http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSArcjbsuLfhWmmBQmykRmg50C6VHH5YP2toSxfQbmbvvPTNWsO http://www.bttbab.com/shepherds_mastiff.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Before AKC recognition of the border collie, dogs in the Miscellaneous Class with ILP numbers could indeed be intact, but they could only compete in obedience and tracking. AKC specifically excluded them from conformation, agility and herding. Border collies were a presence in obedience (not in tracking), but their numbers were minuscule compared to the number of working border collies, and they had no public exposure. One important but barely recognized change wrought by AKC recognition was that border collies then began to appear in the list of breeds in the kind of books that people consult when they're going to get a dog and are deciding what breed to get. They were never found in those books before, because those kinds of books only list AKC breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Actually, you would be restoring some of the original traits of the breed and undoing the damage that the show ring has inflicted upon them! Bulldogs once had the power, speed, agility and overall fitness require to fight bulls. The show ring contorted them into freaks of nature that can't breath, run, give birth or even mate without assistance. True enough, and my personal opinion is that there should be no such thing as the modern Bulldog or Pug, or Boxer. But my point was if you substantially change something, it becomes something else than what you started with. It may be good, as in my hypothetically "athleticized" Bulldog, or it may be bad, like the loss of working ability in the Border Collie bred for sports. But in either case, traits that required a great deal of careful breeding to orchestrate and "fix," can quickly slip away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Saying any breed can do agility is as simplistic as saying any herding breed can herd - that is true if your standards are set low enough, but some do it far better than others. ******************************************************* Not quite true. Herding stock requires an innate set of skills, or it is simply obedience on stock. Agility is more a matter of training the dog. True, most people can't/won't put the time and effort into training a difficult dog for agility, but it can be done. A dog without the instinct cannot be effective in stock work period. As for some doing it better than others, that is just the way life is. ********************************************************* As far as why do people buy or breed for sport dogs - I think it's as simple as people buy what they see and what they know. If you're active in the agility community, you know which dogs do really well and you hear about it if those dogs get bred, and if you're the competitive minded sort, it's pretty tempting to take a pup from the breeding. And if you happen to own one of those dogs who wins alot, it is very tempting to breed that dog because you may already have interested people lining up to buy puppies. And there is some degree of 'agility talent' out there in some dogs. For example there was one dog in my area who got bred a few times and at some point people started noticing that a high percentage of the world team dogs went back to this one particular dog, and that it seemed pretty much anything you bred him to produced top class agility dogs much sought after by world-team-minded competitors. Not just speed but a nice combination of fast acceleration, great turning ability, very fast reflexes, and extreme biddability. So if you're a competitive agility person and you get a chance at one of this dog's pups, vs some unknown stock dog who has never done agility - which is your more sure bet of getting an extremely competitive dog? The agility people just don't see these stock dog litters being shoved in their faces every day like they do with the agility litters and I think it's human nature (and common sense really) to buy a pup from parents who have shown they can do well at the same things they'd like their pup to do well at. ************************************************ People breed sport dogs for money-plain and simple. People buy them because they don't know any better and forget that that great agility dog got there by the training/handling of a top notch trainer (or someone who put the time/effort into the training). You can't breed training! Border Collies do well at sports for the simple reason they are selected for those traits which make them excell at sports. But this comes out via stock work. The drive/heart, biddability, speed and agilness are traits which are necessary for stock work along with stock sense. I have found no better test for selecting breeding stock for these traits than stock work. I would also counter that people often purchase from sport breeders to impress their friends-the snobbery thing. As for not finding stock dogs I counter that most people never bother to even look for one or investt he time it takes to get to know anything about the working dog before purchasing and often buy the first one they find in the newspaper then run down 'working dogs' when their pup may simply not have been from a good breeding. ***************************************************** As far as registry - back in the pre-dogwars days, didn't ABCA border collies get ILP'd for AKC activities all the time, without a spay/neuter requirement? Ignoring the conformation piece of it for now, is that really all that different a situation than ABCA dogs getting AKC numbers these days to play AKC sports? I think the blurring of lines between AKC and ABCA started back before AKC forced border collies into the breed ring. Back in the ILP days they would have had to stay within the ABCA system. We probably would still have come down to these same discussions, except the question would be deregistering any dog that got an ILP to play AKC sports instead of deregisterign for an actual AKC number. Different paper work, but same breeding issues. Diana Back in the day it wasn't that big a problem. Agility made the BC much more popular. AKC forbid BC's from playing in their herding trials while leaving agility, obedience and tracking open to them. These are the sports AKC considers 'obedience" and are allowed to mixed breeds, while herding falls under the realm of 'performance' basically meaning something the breed was historically bred for. And yes there was a slight blurring of the lines. Early on the USBCC requested that people breed every other generation to working stock, but within a year or two that request changed to breed EVERY generation to working stock. The USBCC started in response to an effort by Janet Larson to get the BC accepted into the AKC coffers in the early 1980's. It was at the time made up primarily of obedience competitors who saw the importance fo keeping the breed as working dogs. But for the most the obedience dogs quickly became a line of their own and the two seldom crossed. People did not try to sell obedience dogs as stock dogs. Now if the dog has an HIC (Herding Instinct Certification)they will pass it off as good working stock. Breeding agility dogs is no better than breeding obedience dogs-basically the same. We were able to see (30 years ago) the results of non selection for working ability and it was diminished in as much as one generation and lost in 2. sorry for the lenghtand my inability to do multiple quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Before AKC recognition of the border collie, dogs in the Miscellaneous Class with ILP numbers could indeed be intact, but they could only compete in obedience and tracking. AKC specifically excluded them from conformation, agility and herding. It was many years ago, so I could be remembering wrong, but I don't think they were ever excluded from agility. Agility is considered a companion event (as opposed to conformation and herding or retriever tests) and ILP dogs have always been allowed in companion events. The mixed breed dogs are now allowed in companion events. My "ILP because they were Misc. class" Border Collie did agility when it first started, and my "ILP because I got her from the pound" Golden Retriever did too, but we couldn't participate in hunt tests or retriever trials because of her "second class" status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 My "ILP because they were Misc. class" Border Collie did agility when it first started, and my "ILP because I got her from the pound" Golden Retriever did too, but we couldn't participate in hunt tests or retriever trials because of her "second class" status. I'm assuming the rationale (stated or otherwise) why ILP animals could not compete in the "group" tests or trials is because no one in "the sport of purebred dogs" would want to risk the purebreds being shown up by a dog of uncertain background, among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Sue it gets into how the AKC works. They have 'obedience' categories which include obedience, rally, agility and tracking. Then they have "Performance" events which can qualify a dog for his dual CH which includes herding, hunt tests and lure coursing (others depending on the breeds involved). AKC allowed ILP dogs into the obedience events but excluded them from performance events. this is one factor the spurred the desire among AKC people to accept the BC as an AKC breed. It is also a problem forf ABCA dogs whose owners wish to compete in AKC herding but whose dogs AKC does not recognize as'purebred' and which AKC gives the mixed breed designation to instead of the purebred now that they accept mixed breeds. Additionally such dogs(those in the AKC mixed breed category) are not eligible for AKC national finals in agility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 By "group tests or trials", I meant those "purpose" events (like for the dogs in the "herding" group or different hunting groups) as I couldn't think of what else to call them. But, is the rationale that no one wants the potential of an AKC-registered purebred shown up in "what they are bred for" by a dog of uncertain ancestry, even if it obviously (from appearance and behavior) was a purebred of the same breed? Or, I suppose, one could argue that an unpedigreed dog, no matter how well if performed, could not produced pedigreed pups and therefore, what's the use? I understand the grouping (obedience vs performance), but I'm curious about the reasoning. I think I understand the "why" but it's largely assumption on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Bottom line, it comes down to the individual breeding decisions made by individual people. That was the starting premise of the article that started this thread. How do you get people to make the 'right' decisions? It's going to be very hard for someone from another 'culture' to make someone else alter the type of breeding decisions they make. It's a very slow process to try to bring every breeder of border collies into the working dog culture one by one and there are a lot that will never change no matter how much effort you put into trying to educate them. Possibly it's too late to stem the tide - nonworking border collies will continue to be bred. It has already been stated that ABCA registration is not and never has been a guarantee of a quality working dog - and maybe trying to make it serve that purpose is expecting too much when you're talking about 20,000 registered dogs. There has been talk before about having tiered registration or some way of showing proof of working ability - those suggestions always get shot down as too difficult to implement, too hard to define, or too close to the AKC model of 'titles' for comfort. So it seems we are stuck - we want ABCA to mean quality dogs but we don't have a means of making it serve that purpose. I firmly believe that if interest in the working dog goes away (whether that is actual work or trialing) there will be no more market for working dogs and they will disappear. In an ideal world, all breeding would be based on the work, but since it seems unlikely that will ever be the case, the best we can do is to support and grow the working side of the equation, to ensure that there is always a market for these dogs and people interested in producing them. Maybe it is time for a third organization of some type (or another branch of ABCA or USBCHA), that can educate people and facilitate getting working border collies into the hands of people who could make use of them. Similar to the function that USBCHA serves for trial handlers, this organization's purpose could be the recording and promotion of working dog breeders, trainers, and mentors (not individual dogs, but anyone who breeds and/or sells stock dogs, to allow for those who may not breed but may still train and sell dogs that other have bred) and providing a communication tool between the owners of livestock operations and breeders/trainers of border collies so that you ensure anyone who does go seeking out a working dog won't end up with a bad one that will color his/her attitude about using a stock dog. Belonging to this organization could become the mark of quality that is currently missing from any of the dog registries - sort of a professional organization for working border collie people - the same way you'd be more likely to go a certified mechanic vs just someone setting themselves up with no credentials. It could be something that people voluntarily register with (which is to their benefit as it will help advertise their puppies and trained dogs) and as part of registration of themselves as a breeder, they would need to supply evidence of their breeding goals. This could be showing that offspring have competed in Open trials, or a written statement from a livestock operation saying they got a dog from this person and use it for real work, or videos of dogs produced or traiend by this person working. Trainers could supply evidence that they have trained and sold dogs to USBCHA handlers and livestock operations. This would be less work to prove the PEOPLE are 'right' vs trying to prove that every single invidual dog is 'right' so maybe would be more manageable as far as manpower and cost to get it done. There would also be less turnover of new regisrations, because people live a lot longer than the dogs do. Register one person for 20-30 years vs the 50+ dogs they might produce during that time. Lesser known breeders who might just breed old Fido off the farm once in their lifetime could still benefit, by getting in touch with a mentor in their area and saying "Hey I have some nicely bred dogs, could you come out to my place and see my dog work so I can get them listed on your site?" The organization could be heavily promoted among livestock operation owners, saying 'come to us if you want a working dog'. Then when a rancher comes, they have a variety of options available depending on their needs. They could be hooked up with a volunteer mentor in their area who could come to their place and use their own dog to help with some of the work and show the rancher what a dog can do, or who could meet this person at a trial and explain what is going on and direct them to the people there who might be able to help them. They could be hooked up with a breeder to get a puppy. They could be hooked up with a local trainer to help them train a dog they already have or to plan on the training of a puppy they might buy. They could be hooked up with a trainer selling trained dogs. Or they could be hooked up with local USBCHA handlers with retired Open dogs who might be available for sale. They could also be direted to any local trials or demos that might be available if they just want to learn more about how border collies work. This way you have someone 'hand holding' this person through the learning curve, making it more likely that they will see it through and not stop in frustration when they end up with a poorly bred dog or a dog they don't know how to train, and to ensure they don't get suckered into believing some AKC breeders hype about working ability of their dogs. I think by making it an organziation of breeders/trainers, rather than a dog registry, it makes it less of a problem if you can't get all of the working non-trial dogs into it (that has been the main stumbling block with a tiered registration system for dogs) - as long as you have enough PEOPLE in each geographic area who have pledged their time and effort to help do what they can to promote working dogs, the job will get done. If you want to take it a step further and you think that marketing to the sport dog crowd (or even the pet dog crowd for that matter) to let them know a working bred dog will serve their needs, it could also be promoted in those circles and someone could help steer these people to breeders of quality working dogs who have also produced good sport dogs in the past. The only breeders on the 'list' would be those that have already shown they have the correct breeding goals, this way it doesn't turn into a marketing tool for any old sport breeder out there with ABCA registered dogs, but only for those who are actually helping the breed and preserving working ability. That part of it would really depend on how important that market is determined to be - maybe something that could be added later if needed. I don't see anything on ABCA's or USBCHA's sites that easily directs potential working dog newbies to breeders or sellers of quality working dogs. The ABCA website does have a very good page on choosing a border collie, but leaves it up to the individual person to find the trials or breeders or trainers in their area and determine which ones they talk to are really the good ones. And possibly a lot of sheep or cattle ranchers may not even know to go look on the website. I'm sure others have thought of this before and there are probably issues I'm not seeing. I guess I just get frustrated that things are happening with border collies that can't be stopped, so am trying to think, if we can't ensure ALL border collies are good ones, how do we at least ensure there will always be a lot of good ones around and that people who want them can find them? It does not appear that the current systems are doing that, otherwise there would not be all this concern over the whole matter. Diana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 My dogs are both ILP'd (it is called PAL now) with AKC. One a rescue - no papers- was done in/around 2001. The other was bought from a breeder but I did not want to do full registration for ethical reasons-she got a PAL# in 2009. They have both run in AKC herding trials...is that because BC's are an AKC breed now? So prior to acceptance my ILP'd dogs would not have been allowed to run in herding trials? That is not surprising I guess, but it is really cr*ppy I was aware that to be on AKC/World Agility team the dog must have a 3 generation pedigree. I was not aware that ILP/PAL dogs could not compete in AKC Nationals. It has been years since I did any agility & when I did it was mostly with USDAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Diana, that could be done via ABCA, and education like you wrote of is critical for the future of the breed IMHO. Too often I see a farmer buy a poor quality dog and then trash the whole breed because of it. Additionally I see farmers who have NO idea tha BC's go and fetch/bring stock to you (or that a dog even could do that).OTOH I see sport and show bred dogs being touted as working stock dogs because a parent has a title of some sort and many people have no clue that this does not 'prove' the dog can work nor that it can produce workers. Sue R: as to AKC's reasoning behind the split in obedience and performance, I have little idea except perhaps that the performance can count as the dog being 'bred' to do what the breed originated as since the dog can earn it's dual CH via the performance events. Pam Keep your friends close and your enemies closer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I don't see anything on ABCA's or USBCHA's sites that easily directs potential working dog newbies to breeders or sellers of quality working dogs. The ABCA website does have a very good page on choosing a border collie, but leaves it up to the individual person to find the trials or breeders or trainers in their area and determine which ones they talk to are really the good ones. Here's why the ABCA is unlikely to do that. It would be a complete and total nightmare, that would end up in a court room or ten. First of all, try to define "breeder or seller of quality working dogs". Essentially, the ABCA would be offering free endorsements. The first person who felt that they were a good breeder who was unfairly being excluded, would sue the ABCA. The annual General Meeting would see a lineup of people complaining that so and so was included on "The List" and so and so, who they know to be a far better breeder was not. We'd have people running around digging up dirt on people on "The List" and posting here that so and so sold a dog to an AKC handler once, and other B.S. The best thing the ABCA can do in this area, in my personal opinion, is to up their efforts on getting the information on the website out to as many places as possible. That could include information in general terms as to how one would go about locating and evaluating breeders of good working dogs, but would definitely stop short of endorsing any particular breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Diana, I think your ideas are great! Not sure how to implement them but perhaps someone more connected can get the ball rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnottyClarence Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Herding activities for both newbies and trialers are said to be on the rise, if recent newspaper articles are to be believed. This is a good opportunity to reach more people. Clubs and registries should stand ready with good information at all these public opportunities. Has anyone else noticed that wolves and coyotes, as well as all the border collie members of the "world teams" of the last few years at least, are all "easty-westy"? Margaret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 My dogs are both ILP'd (it is called PAL now) with AKC. One a rescue - no papers- was done in/around 2001. The other was bought from a breeder but I did not want to do full registration for ethical reasons-she got a PAL# in 2009. They have both run in AKC herding trials...is that because BC's are an AKC breed now? So prior to acceptance my ILP'd dogs would not have been allowed to run in herding trials? That is not surprising I guess, but it is really cr*ppy I was aware that to be on AKC/World Agility team the dog must have a 3 generation pedigree. I was not aware that ILP/PAL dogs could not compete in AKC Nationals. It has been years since I did any agility & when I did it was mostly with USDAA. Actually, an ILP/PAL dog can indeed compete at the AKC Nationals: All dogs that are registered with the American Kennel Club or that have AKC Limited Registration, Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privileges (PAL/ILP), or an AKC Canine Partners listing number, or Foundation Stock Service (FSS) breeds and who meet the minimum entry qualifications set forth for the event are eligible to compete in the AKC National Agility Championship, providing the entry is received prior to any entry limits being reached and before the event closing date/time. I also think the rules have changed at some point, several years ago certain tests probibited ILP dogs from competeing but now an ILP/PAL dog can now compete: What AKC events may a PAL/ILP dog Participate in? The Purebred Alternative Listing Program/Indefinite Listing Privilege (PAL/ILP) is designed to allow dogs to participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. The AKC Events that a PAL/ILP dog can participate in are: * Agility Trials (All Breeds) * Earthdog Trials (Small Terriers and Dachshunds) * Herding Tests and Trials ( Herding Breeds, Rottweilers and Samoyeds) * Hunt Tests (Most Sporting Breeds and Standard Poodles) * Junior Showmanship (All Breeds) * Lure Coursing (Sighthounds) * Obedience Trials (All Breeds) * Rally Trials (All Breeds) * Tracking Tests (All Breeds) Also, its an FCI rule not an AKC rule that requires a 3 generation pedigree, so that's why an ILP dog can't be part of the AKC World Team (it should be noted there's another non FCI world competition that USDAA sends a team to and that team can and has sent non-purebred dogs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thanks for the clarification Rush. Ugh the Puke-anuba National Championship is just coming on TV. Now I see what drives these people.... a $50,000 Prize!!! Off to change the channel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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