Borderlines

[Debbie Meier]

My fingers are crossed, I spoke to a Open handler just the other night that moved up here just before winter from Missouri, she might be interested in hosting a trial in the future. Best part, she's only 30 miles from here.

 

It's hard to get a field trial together when there is not a lot of interest in it from a handler standpoint locally.

[Eileen Stein]

The Iowa State Fair, which is not sanctioned with USBCHA does not offer Novice.

 

Sounds good on both counts.

 

It really shows a flaw in the thinking of having the arena trials as ranch or pro-novice, the quality of work is going to be lower. I would rather keep it Open and have as good of quality as we can attact. We still required driving and sheds, where as the p/n has no shed and the novice has no required drives.

 

There are so many ways this could be handled. If your local assn doesn't want to sanction the trial as p/n or ranch, then why not just run it like the Iowa State Fair -- no USBCHA sanction, and let the number of competitors be determined by the purse and the desire to run the course and have a good time?

 

Go check out the USBCHA Sheepdog Point rankings and see how many Iowa handlers are on it, Nebraska too for that matter. Then compare it to the Cattledog Point rankings, it should tell you the tale as to why there are not any open field trials here, few trialers that run in the open field trials.

 

If what you are saying is that there are few if any Iowa sheepdog handlers who are able or willing to run in open field trials, then surely there SHOULD be few Iowa handlers on the sheepdog point rankings.

[Lana]

 

 

eta, some in this area are still trying to figure out why I would spend the money to send my young dog that is already trialling on cattle to a trainer that has no cattle, only big open fields and sheep.

 

 

If that were the thinking in my "area" i would look outside for mentors too.

[Debbie Meier]

Lana, it was strange, more then one was trying to talk me out of it. I'm kinda thinking that there is a chance that I will win the training and travel money back before the end of the year.

[Debbie Meier]

Awe heck, we are just honoring old Iowa Border Collie tradition, I think I read somewhere that the original trials held here in Iowa when the old registry was active and border collies were being promoted initially were all arena trials. Maybe that's why our Iowa dogs do so well in arena trials, they've been breed for it the longest (GGG)....good thing we bought a South Dakota dog!

[Pam Wolf]

Deb there were a few-very few field trials in Iowa, and northern MO back in the day. There were also good working farm sheep dogs. Arena trials became popular because they can be held at county fairs etc, good crowd pleasers but I have NEVER understood why they were sanctioned for the finals.

 

I think sheep prices had something to do with many people getting out of sheep in the area and a decline of flocks available for trials and few farmers who do have sheep understanding what a good dog can do (and arenas do not help here).

[appyridr]

For me a higher standard for sheep trials includes *judging.*

 

I agree but I do compete in a few time/points trials when there is nothing else going on AND because we no longer have ANY local field trials in our area of District 10. They(arena trials) are often partly in a small field with driving and a small gather and/or combined with some AHBA type of stuff. They are not USBCHA sanctioned just by our regional club.

 

 

As has been noted in many other discussions that come down to this, if someone is gaining points toward finals only in arena trials (assuming it's possible to garner enough points that way), then they are likely kidding themselves about their and their dogs' abilities compared to teams who run in judged open field courses. I've often wondered if the most important thing to come out of winning arena trials is bragging rights. ("I won an open trial.")

 

I don't know of anyone earning finals points ONLY on arena trials but I do know of quite a few handlers in another area that have between 10 and 17 Open points already just from a few arena trials last fall. In other areas too, due to winter weather perhaps, they hold arena trials some that attract big entries: the recent NorthWestern Stock Show, and Ft.Worth or Houston? The Calgary Stampede used to have 80 entries but I believe are limiting to 60 now; two runs can garner quite a few points.... But I believe that most that go on to Finals also compete in field trials so I don't think it is an issue to worry about.

 

cheers Lani

[Mark Billadeau]

Depends on where you look, it was interesting to hear the statement from a Missouri handler that came up to sheep festival last year, he said "wow, all we saw was corn for miles and miles, no wonder you don't have field trials".

 

I have run at a few open sheep trials run on crop fields after the crops have been harvested. You may also be able to get access to crop fields while they have cover crops on them.

 

Isn't the Fogt's trial field on a harvested crop field?

 

Mark

[Lana]

Most all parts of the country have to work around some sort of crop, grazing, calving or lambing.

[Debbie Meier]

Most all parts of the country have to work around some sort of crop, grazing, calving or lambing

 

Yup, and then there is winter

[juliepoudrier]

I guess if one is determined to have and participate in only arena trials, then one can find a million excuses as to why arena trials are all that is possible. Fortunately in many other parts of the country, people routinely manage to work around all those obstacles and hold field trials.

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

Honestly I think it has to do with stock availability. Since many of the flocks here are production flocks and most are small at that, there is seldom sheep available. Fall is breeding and winter the ewes are bred and spring is lambing. This leaves summers which are hot.

 

Yes, you can work bred ewes-but best with good dogs. You never know who will show at a trial and anything can happen.

 

And there is not the quality of farm dog work on the whole as on the coasts for some reason. One is lack of education to the farmers on HOW valuable a dog can be. Another is the farmers are not educated on selecting a well bred dog. And another is the farmers are not educated on how to train/use a dog to it's best potential. Hence most farmers see the dogs as a nuisance and they do NOT want a bunch of dogs 'chasing' their stock around. This makes for a shortage of sheep for trials.

 

This area is much bigger than the coasts in terms of travel. It means expenses to travel, lodging, food along with entries.

 

I do not think the arena trials that have been the main venue for displaying the stock dog has helped matters either. Most people I talk to cannot translate the dog's usefulness to the farm from watching an arena trial.

 

And did I mention a lack of education for the farmers? (not saying farmers are not smart, just not educated on the value of the dogs)

[Mark Billadeau]

Are there no hay fields in IA?

 

One could be even more creative and try to find places like The Ramsey Farm at Lesanville, Living History Farms in Urbandale, or other historic farm/museums where one could hold an event much like holding a trial at Belle Gove or Oatlands in VA.

 

We had discussed with our Extension Agent the possibility of holding a trial at the local Agricultural Center (extension office) and research farm.

 

[Debbie Meier]

Pam understands some of the issues, but I think the biggest is reflected in the USBCHA point standings, the lack of handlers from this area on that list is a direct reflection for why there is little interest in making a open field trial happen.

 

When we first got here many of the courses were arena ASCA courses, the border collie handlers have since gravitated them all to mini ISDS courses. Entries are up from back then in the club trials, open class will be 10 -15 vs. 2 or 3 back then, but we are not getting many novice handlers, and those that are starting out now move up pretty quick. I suspect that if we let it go back to ASCA courses it will swing back the other way, the novice class will get larger and the open handlers will no longer come totally discontinuing running on sheep in this area. All of the ABCA and USBCHA representation would be solely in the Cattle division.

 

Many of the handlers are running cattledogs, we don't get phone calls for people wanting sheep dogs, they want cattledogs, so there is no incentive to prove a dog out in the open field on sheep. It's actually surprising that no one noticed that a nice open fenced big field was found for Cattledog Finals. If it's about cattle it's happening, sheep, "nah..if you want to do one we may come it we aren't doing anything else"

 

We've done demos at Farm Progress Show twice, the first year (2 years ago) we had the 3 top open handlers in our area present sheepdog demos. We had people come to watch the dogs, very few people coming over to talk about working dogs.

 

This year Wayne & I did the demos, we took calves, sheep and ducks. We had the typical come see the dogs work, aren't the ducks funny and then we had the guys come to talk about wanting to use a dog in their cattle operation or questions about how they can get more out of their dogs. I kinda doubt there was anyone at the Farm Progress Show even interested in using dogs in their sheep operation. We may get someone with hobby sheep, but not commercial sheep, they stress the sheep and cause abortions you know...

 

We've been trying to demonstrate out in the open with no fences where ever possible, it does generate more interest and questions about the real use of working dogs compared to a arena or fenced demo area, but once again, most are asking about using the dogs for cattle handling not sheep.

 

The only way I could see us having some open field sheep trials is if we get a few handlers that want to run regularly at the open field sheep trials, and I suspect that for the most part they will be hobby/sport sheepdog handlers not ones actually using sheepdogs. I think there are only 2 current open field sheepdog handlers and a 3rd that also runs other venues that is moving up through P/N now. Yes, we have a few more that have entered at the sheepdog trials, but if there was a cattledog trial on the same day, they would be at the cattledog trial.

 

So, yeah, you can sayw that we make all kinds of excuses for not having a trial, and yeah they are to a degree. But, they are also obstacles that would be easily overcome if there was a lot of interest in open field sheepdog trials.

 

ETA, the first year we did fair demos I watched the livestock barns, when we jumped sheep out of the trailer there was a quick look and then back to their work. The second year we took calves also, when we jumped calves out of the trialer worked stopped along with the "you gotta see this" comments.

[juliepoudrier]

Honestly I think it has to do with stock availability. Since many of the flocks here are production flocks and most are small at that, there is seldom sheep available. Fall is breeding and winter the ewes are bred and spring is lambing. This leaves summers which are hot.

I don't think the above is unique to the middle of the country. Most of us here in the east have small flocks that are bred in the fall, lamb in winter or spring, and yes, it's not only hot here but also humid in the summer (and often in spring and fall too). My flock (down to ~30 right now because of the move) isn't large enough to hold a trial on. Some folks do have large enough flocks, and sometimes those flocks are used for several different trials. Of course if the trial isn't huge, then massive numbers of sheep aren't needed.

 

Oh, and if cattle are the big draw for an area, then there's no reason not to hold field trials with cattle. One of the few (one of two held in VA) cattle trials in this area has a field trial and an arena trial each day.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Oh, and if cattle are the big draw for an area, then there's no reason not to hold field trials with cattle. One of the few (one of two held in VA) cattle trials in this area has a field trial and an arena trial each day.

 

 

We have the cattle trials in what ever area the person hosting the trial has avaiable that will safely hold the cattle. Sometimes it is a rodeo arena, others it is a 4 acre lot and we had one in a open field.

[Sue R]

I had always been a fan of a well-designed arena trial (cattle, in particular) - not really as a way for people to get credible qualifying points but as a good test of some nice dog work.

 

That is, until I saw a dog take down a sheep at an arena trial, and not be DQ'd because at that non-judged (points and time only) trial, a grip was not grounds for a DQ.

 

While I find a good arena trial to be worthwhile, I'm not convinced that it should be sanctioned by USBCHA - but I'm not convinced that they shouldn't be, either. But I don't think they are representative of a dog's "qualification" for a National Finals, sheep or cattle.

[jdarling]

Yet feedback was received from a very small percentage of the membership. My impression is that the members who expressed an opinion either on the forum that was specially set up for that purpose, or at the annual membership meeting, or through direct contact with one or more directors, totaled no more than 100 or so (not counting directors), while the number of members eligible to vote in 2002 was 3,682. While this lack of response by the members might indicate indifference on the part of the majority, the fact is that no one really knew how the majority of the membership felt.

 

Eileen, do you think that the percentage of people responding would be greater today with the more widespread use of the internet and facebook and such? 2002 was almost ten years ago (can you believe it???). I was quite surprised by the number of people streaming the finals ... so perhaps there's a way to get larger membership participation?

[Debbie Meier]

Kinda needs to be a different thread, but this one is rambling around so well. Julie mentioned open field cattledog trials.

 

I'm not convinced that a open field cattledog trial based on a sheepdog course is the best test for a working dog that can handle cattle, regardless if it is judged or point/time. There are parts that are good, but parts that do not really test the dog. I'm saying this as I have a dog that does very well at open field cattledog trials both judged and point time against the competition. Often his true weaknesses are not shown until he gets into the arena trials, when working undogged older cattle or when working in a cow/calf situation, which you will find none of at a typical open field trial. In a trial we can often times handle him through the touchy spots, or keep a lid on him, and so long as we either do not draw a cow that needs some retuning or if the cow does not discover the weakness we can get through it and probably land in the money.

 

I think one has to be careful to not take yourself or your dog too seriously when basing abiliy on trial success.

[Debbie Meier]

That is, until I saw a dog take down a sheep at an arena trial, and not be DQ'd because at that non-judged (points and time only) trial, a grip was not grounds for a DQ.

 

That depends on the individual host and stock provider. When we were at Platte Tim told the handlers that any grip behind the shoulder or unwarrented was a DQ. I judged it and to a point might have gotten a bit DQ happy calling dogs that maybe didn't get a grip in, but only due to missing their target. One that I called I'm told was a miss but the dog ran a ewe into the wall as the ewe was trying to evade the grip, DQ. I had one that I was uncertain on that Tim called, Laura Hick's old dog was penning, a ewe faced him off and stomped it's foot, the dog gripped it's front leg rather then the nose, he hung on a bit. I should have called it but kinda felt it was gray, but not to Tim, DQ! They might not ask me to judge again...

 

ETA, it was a time only trial, but I had to oversee the runs, basically judge grips and when each element was complete and when they were completed. It's really not a fun job, you get lots of dirty looks when you say "Thank you", for some reason some think they should get a warning.

[Sue R]

Yes, what happened (or didn't happen) after a grip like that was strictly up to the course director and so on, but it soured me on arena trials quite a bit as I realized that if that happened in one location and seemed to raise only certain eyebrows, that it might happen elsewhere as well.

 

Anyway, I went from being quite a fan to being quite dubious, in a moment. Impressions count, you know?

[Lana]

 

I'm not convinced that a open field cattledog trial based on a sheepdog course is the best test for a working dog that can handle cattle, regardless if it is judged or point/time. There are parts that are good, but parts that do not really test the dog. I'm saying this as I have a dog that does very well at open field cattledog trials both judged and point time against the competition. Often his true weaknesses are not shown until he gets into the arena trials, when working undogged older cattle or when working in a cow/calf situation, which you will find none of at a typical open field trial.

 

 

So arena trials have more un dogged cows and some times cow/calf pairs? hmm Never seen that to be true in any part of the country. I have seen many dogs that can work fine at a rock throwing distance, but not out in a field. That would hold for sheep and cattle. Lightly dogged or undogged cattle in an open field are much tougher than any type of cattle in an arena.

[Debbie Meier]

So arena trials have more un dogged cows and some times cow/calf pairs?

 

Lana, where the heck do you get that? Arena trials, undogged cattle or cow/calf pairs. All three mutually exclusive, our dogs work has not been limited to trials.

 

ETA, my appoligies, after rereading a few times I think I see how you got that, it is not what I meant that there are undogged cattle or cow/calf pairs at a arena trial. What I was trying to say is that his issues show up at arena trials, when he is working undogged cattle and cow/calf pairs. None of which typically show up at open field trials.

 

Also, with our dog I would take undogged cattle in a field over in a arena, I just asked Wayne what he thought, he agreed, more space is better

[Lana]

Often his true weaknesses are not shown until he gets into the arena trials, when working undogged older cattle or when working in a cow/calf situation, which you will find none of at a typical open field trial.

 

Maybe it was just the run on sentence. Tough to really figure out the thought line here. The line "which you will find none of at a typical open field trial" suggest you do find such work at an arena trial.

 

Un dogged cattle and pairs are much tougher in the open. If you think working un dogged cattle in the wide open is easier than bouncing them off some walls in an arena, i guess we just don't have the same experiences or dogs.

[Debbie Meier]

Sorry about that. I suspect it depends on the dog and the cattle, could be that undogged cattle that are kept in a more confinement setting would be different then undogged cattle that are left out on open range.