Preperations for a herding dog??

[(Jess)]

Hi all,

 

My pup is only 9 weeks old right now, but I am really interested in getting her involved with herding. She's already showing alot of instinct (steadily stalking toys/our goat, circling things in a serious manner, etc.) But I know the real instinct doesn't come up usually until the dog is a few months, or even a year old. I am wanting to know what I should do, incase she does prove to be a good prospect for herding. So, here's my questions:

 

1) I am wanting to put her in puppy obedience classes, and intermediate classes when she's a few months older. Is using a CLICKER a good or bad idea for a dog that may someday be on sheep?

 

2) How much socialization should she have with livestock right now? We own a pet goat, so when my pup is outside with me, the goat is usually a main interest. The goat does not run from her, but does try to play with her, as she was raised with dogs around.

 

What do yall think? Suggestions welcome, thanks!

[Bill Fosher]

In my opinion, the clicker has no place in the training of a stockdog. More importantly, the kind of training that involves clickers is probably not going to result in the right mindset for a working dog.

 

The most important things you can do with a pup before taking it to stock are teach it manners and teach it to take correction. Let it be a puppy, but when it does something wrong, put a stop to it, and then let it continue to be a puppy.

 

The hardest thing to deal with when training a young do is one that thinks the world is going to end when it's told "no." If you can help him understand that correction is part of life, it will be a lot easier to get through to him when he's working livestock.

 

In many ways teaching manners and teaching a dog to take correction go hand in hand. If the puppy bites your hand and you tell him no and make him stop, but then continue to play with him, he learns that when he does something you don't like he has to stop doing it before he gets to go on playing.

 

Personally, I'd keep him away from livestock -- especially the pet goat -- until he's ready to work.

 

See if you can get Derek Scrimgeour's videotape or DVD on starting working dogs. There are some very good exercises that start before the pup ever sees sheep. You can get it from http://www.bordercollies.com

[Rave]

Clicker training the pup for obedience won't ruin them as a stockdog, as long as you realize the clicker training is only for obedience, tricks, etc... There's nothing you can clicker train to help the pup in anything to do with herding anyway. Good luck and have fun with your pup.

 

-Laura

[Eileen Stein]

Many years ago, the Ranch dog Trainer (now out of print) published a pamphlet called The Puppy Book (now out of print), which gave ten commandments for raising a stockdog puppy. The article gave reasons for each of the commandments, which makes it easier to understand the purpose behind them, but here are the commandments themselves:

 

1. Do not let your pup run loose.

 

2. Do not tie or kennel him in plain view of stock.

 

3. Do not let the young pup chase or herd cats, kids, hens, ducks, trucks, other dogs, or things that fly.

 

4. Do not allow him to chase and grip stock.

 

5. Do not let him hold stock against a fence or corner.

 

6. Do not allow the pup to spend his days running back and forth along a genceline or lying outside one, staring in at stock.

 

7. Do not overdo strict or formal obedience training.

 

8. Do not let the pup get away with not listening.

 

9. Do not spoil the pup with excessive petting, praise, games or toys.

 

10. Do not leave him alone without any human interaction, training, or exposure to things that are new or unknown.

 

I have known good stockdogs to result when these commandments were broken, but they are basically sound, IMO, and if you observe them you're improving the odds that your pup will grow up to be a useful stockdog. OTOH, if stock work isn't your sole focus, but only something you think you might want to try out someday, naturally you may not want to be governed by these commandments in your way of life with your pup.

 

I personally would not do clicker training with a pup whose main purpose in life was to be stock work.

[(Jess)]

Thank you Bill, thats very helpful. I never have understood the basis of clicker training, but had wondered about giving it a try - but it makes sense that it would not be beneficial to a free thinking (mostly) working dog.

 

One last thing, if she DOES try to chase something (guineas at my barn, or the goat even) should I discipline her for it to teach boundaries? And if so, by stopping her, would that hamper her desire to herd in any way and make her not feel comfortable herding sheep someday?

 

I will check into that DVD. Thanks!

[(Jess)]

Eileen, Do you know where I could get that book now since its out of print? It seems really basic, which is probably helpful for a novice

 

I am not wanting to make her a working dog ONLY, because she is also a companion dog, and I want to do obedience with her - but I want her to be able to use her natural abilities/instinct, however strong they may be, and just challenge ourselves. I'd love for her to really take up with herding, I would enjoy it and have always admired people who have well trained working dogs. I am going to see about enrolling her in herding lessons, as I found a trainer right in my town.

 

As far as those "puppy commandments" -- Do horses count necessarily as livestock? She's hopefully going to grow up to be a trail riding buddy, so I don't want to keep her out of view of the horses since she needs to learn to behave around them. As of right now, I let her watch them from a distance but she is not allowed near them because she's too little.

 

And about her never being loose - should I be teaching her to walk on a leash this early, 9 weeks? And if so, is it okay to let her loose to run out her energy under supervision (away from things she may try to chase)?

 

Sorry for all the questions, I'm new to this and obviously haven't gotten my hands on a good herding book yet I have been around many non-BC pups, and training is less important with them, it seems a bit different when one is wanting to raise a working/semi-working dog.

 

Thanks for the help!!

[(Jess)]

Thanks Laura.

 

I guess since it obviously has no benefits with herding I will probably just toss the clicker idea. I have never done it anyways, I just do it the old fashioned way. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it

[jvw]

Jessica,

 

I think the not running loose part is more like don't let the pup run around unsupervised. Even when supervised its a good idea to let the pup drag a line until you have a reliable solid recall.

 

If you are going to do any herding with your dog I highly discourage competition obedience. A dog that is trained to be constantly looking you in the face, even when moving will have a hard time working stock and thinking on its own. Now just regular good behavior obedience is a different story.

 

Jennifer

[jvw]

Also, here is a link to advice on raising a pup to eventually herd with. Keep in mind its written with the intent that the pup will eventually be sent away to a herding trainer for a while but the advice is still sound if you don't plan on doing that.

 

http://www.jimmywalkerbordercollies.com/pupraising.htm

 

Jennifer

[(Jess)]

Jennifer, thanks for the advice. That's too bad about the obedience thing. I guess it depends on what I want more. Herding, or obedience. Both will wind up costing me lots of money

 

Makes sense though, because those obedience dogs are CONSTANTLY watching their owners. Whereas herding dogs pretty much think on their own, with some guidance. I wonder then, how FAR I should take obedience if I DID decide to pursue herding? I pretty much can train all the basics in a dog - sit, stay, lie down, etc. so I don't need the obedience classes for that, but I like the structured atmosphere of a class, and all the distractions. And to take it further, I like the idea of obedience competing (but then, herding competition would be a bit more fun I think). Herding isn't a HUGE thing in my area (it's more active in Dallas), so most of what we do would be for my own, and my dogs satisfaction more than competing. But the herding community is slowly growing.

[Shelby Kennels]

Jessica - I basically teach my dogs to be mannerly companions and to be comfortable going any where (socializing). As stated, I don't bear down on the obedience as I do want them to be free thinkers - even when I give my dog a lie down in the field working I don't discipline them for not staying until I give a release...they can see what is going on better than I and know when they should get up. I have never clicker trained my dogs - never had a need to and would not know the vices of doing so. Some may disagree with me...but I have one BC here I feel was ruined by excessive frisbee and ball playing (unless of course your sheep can fly!). We never play ball or frisbee with our working dogs. When I have dog time outside of the field I let them ride somewhere with me, take them down to the pond to play or come inside to lay in bed with me in the evenings.

 

I am not an experienced handler running open class - but I do work my dogs and these are just my experiences and opinion.

[Eileen Stein]

Jessica, FWIW when you're deciding what you'll be doing with your pup, competitive obedience requires FAR less of a commitment than stockdog training and trialing for a beginner. And you run far less risk of becoming obsessed with it.

 

>

 

That sounds fine. You do want to get her used to horses being around so that she's confortable with them and not scared of them. Keep an eye on her. There may come a time when she begins to look at the horses as if they were livestock. It will be a very noticeable change in attitude -- we call it "turning on." If you see that she has turned on to the horses, from then on you shouldn't let her spend time staring at them.

 

>

 

Jennifer is right -- the commandment about not letting her run loose refers to letting her run around unsupervised. It's okay for her to run loose when you're watching her, but having her trail a line much of the time is a good idea between the time when she stops eagerly coming to you when you call her (her puppy recall) and the time when you have fully trained her to come to you when you call her (her adult recall).

 

You asked a good question about what to do if she DOES chase things like the guineas or the goat. If that happens, you're right that you don't want to jump all over her and make her feel that she's done a terrible thing. You want to retrieve her as quickly and calmly as you can, and then do something different with her. You can do a little recall training with her trailing a line when the guineas and goat are around, if you keep it light-hearted, but once she's shown an inclination to chase them it would be better for you to prevent her from having any opportunities to do it until she is started on her stockdog training. Once she's started training, you can correct her for chasing the guineas and goat without risking her thinking she's not allowed to go to stock at all.

[(Jess)]

Eileen, so basically, she CAN be around livestock if she is controlled, but if she gets to the point of STARING at them and thinking ONLY "I want to herd, I want to herd!" (turning on, as you put it) then its time to remove her from the situation until she can "handle" herself better. Is that right?

 

I hope she will be good around my horses, do you think it is possible for a dog to be a working dog, but KNOW not to mess with the horses when told? It seems like there is a very fine line here between disciplning them and making them uncomfortable with herding, and disciplining them and showing them the boundaries in herding.

 

Thanks for all of the help once again

[(Jess)]

Kim, I have seen alot of working dogs who also loved their frisbee, but many there are some BC's who will only have ONE drive, and someone must have filled it with a frisbee. :confused: I wouldn't know though, this is all new to me. I HAVE however seen alot of behavioral problems with dogs who get way obsessed with play toys.. but I guess that could happen with anything.

 

Thanks for your advice, I am super new to this so it's a whole new ball park and is definatly not your typical "way" of training a dog. To be honest, I think a free thinking dog is alot more enjoyable then a dog you have to always give commands to. Thats what I am hoping to get out of my dog. One that IS obedient, but is quick enough to know what to do 99% of the time without being told. (minus the puppy stage, we all know puppies can be unruly terrors LOL)

 

Thanks again

[jvw]

Jessica,

There are many handlers who work from horseback, especially outwest and I'm sure even in Texas. Usually they are working cattle but believe me, those dogs know how to act around a horse. I'm sure your pup can be taught.

 

Where in Texas are you? Did you know the USBCHA Cattle Dog Finals are going on right now? I think that is in Big Lake.

 

Jennifer

[(Jess)]

I heard that. I am in East TX. I don't have a car yet (only a liscense lol) but once I get one, I am sure I'll be attending events that are further away. We don't have much herding activity here. Bummer.

[SoloRiver]

Jessica, I don't think there's anything inherently problematic about training your puppy to do non-stock-related things using clicker training or reward-based training. I consider it a highly effective training method that results in less wear and tear on the dog than "traditional" methods (if you're talking about Koehler-style, jerk/choke or other punishment-based methods). My first Border Collie is highly clicker-trained and absolutely none of his problems on stock have anything to do with being too obedient. I've taught Fly, my trained dog to do any number of stupid pet tricks using the clicker, and seem to have managed not to ruin her.

 

The problem that I see with SOME dogs whose owners are into clicker training is that their owners got really fanatic about shaping such that the dog pretty much only does things in expectation of approval from the owner. Don't get me wrong, I think shaping is great as a teaching method in a lot of circumstances but these dogs I'm thinking about have had every single behavior they offer shaped such that they just sit there and throw behaviors at the owner constantly and don't seem to do anything just for the sake of doing it. To me these dog are very robotic. They are fun because they are highly interactive, but it's still really weird. I don't know if it's possible to do this to a dog using "traditional" methods of training (because using "traditional" methods creates a dog who is trained because he's afraid of what will happen to him if he doesn't obey, not a dog who does things because they are rewarding) but I don't see any reason not to clicker train if you're not going to be psycho about "stimulus control" and obedience.

 

Since you're a horsey person, maybe you'd be interested in Alexandra Kurland's work. I've never read her book(s) since I've never trained a horse myself (just ridden other people's) but they're supposed to be pretty good.

[blackacre]

Melanie,

The problem with using your preferred methods with a young dog is that they learn to learn for a reward from you. Begin as you mean to continue. I would even venture to suggest that overlaying clicker training on a trained dog will affect the quality of her work on stock.

Sorry Jessica, there's no cut and dried answer here, but if you are intent on training your little bitch on stock, you you would do well to weigh the responses you receive carefully.

A.

[Smokjbc]

Hi all,

 

This hasn't come up yet, but one thing that really bothers me when people come out with dogs (young & adult) is that very few have the discipline to be confined in-between their turn to work sheep. Nothing, I mean NOTHING, is more annoying than trying to give a person advice on starting their dog out while another person's dog is screaming their head off in their crate (out of site of the stock). It seems elementary but your puppy should realize that it will have times of confinement away from you and will be expected to accept that confinement without throwing a fit. The first few times a dog comes out, I can understand because of the excitement and the new place, but trying to get people to correct their dog for the behavior is like pulling teeth. It doesn't make my sheep land-ladies very happy to hear a bunch of yapping at 8 a.m and its very distracting as well.

 

As far as horses, I no longer have them but when I did, I never had a problem teaching my dogs to leave them alone and I was quite hard on them the first time they attempted it. Those same dogs grew up to work cattle & sheep and understood the difference. I do believe that all of my dogs had already been at least exposed and had positive experiences working sheep before they were corrected for working horses. My Nellie did not see a horse until she was 11 months or so and she flat out attacked the poor mare and got severely taken up for it and never tried anything remotely like it again- she trials on cattle usually with me horseback and does not have a problem.

[laurie etc]

Jessica ,here's my take on it - I've been involved in teaching clicker training classes to hundreds of dogs over the years (in obedience and agility) many Border Collies, all breeds and mixes, all types of owners. Clicker training works - if done correctly - for teaching the basics to any dog. It is a form of operant conditioning, which is a scientifically proven method. A clicker is a sure-fire way to "mark" certain behaviors as the exact ones you want, it makes things very clear with unemotional feedback to the dog. Rewards, and the variable reward system teach a dog that he can keep trying to get the response (reward) he wants, without fear of being wrong and being punished for something he doesn't understand. The "reward" could be a treat, could be praise, could be a toy, could be chasing a squirrel (if that's the best thing in the world to that particular dog!) All this was started by a behaviorist names BF Skinner, do a Google search on him for more info on that. Jessica, if you are interested in clicker training for basic obedience, and maybe later for agility, there are plenty of good books and websites on the subject, which lay out the way it should be undertaken. "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Prior is a great place to start. http://www.clickertrain.com

is a good basic website. As well as http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Consequences It's not "rocket science", but it is scientifically based, and it works. However, there are plenty of people who "use clickers" incorrectly, using the clicker itself as some kind of "reward" or using food as a lure that never fades. In my experience, most people who are "dead set against" the use of clickers for dog training don't really know how or why it works, they just formed an opinion based on anecdotal or bad information. Here?s the basis of operant conditioning:

Reinforcement = behavior increases

Punishment = behavior decreases

Positive(something added)

Negative (something removed)

so...

Positive Reinforcement: Something added increases behavior

Positive Punishment: Something added decreases behavior

Negative Reinforcement:Something removed increases behavior

Negative Punishment: Something removed decreases behavior

 

That being said, I have never, nor will I ever, use a clicker when my dogs are working sheep. Why? It's useless ? and counterproductive. Getting to move and control the stock is the ultimate reward, and I don't want my dogs "looking at me", I want them focusing on their job and the sheep, feeling the pressure from the sheep and responding to that stimulus. As a novice to herding, but having observed many trainers, and now started 5 BC's on sheep, I have come up with some interesting parallels. In clicker training, mostly Positive Reinforcement is used - the dog offers a response, if it's right, he gets a click and reward. If he's wrong, nothing happens (a neutral response). He thinks through it, tries again. If he?s right, then the click/reward happens. My dogs also understand and accept ?Positive Punishment? ? I may add something they don?t like ? like ?Hey? or Lie Down? or ?Leave it!? ? to decrease a behavior.

In training stock dogs, traditionally we use operant conditioning, and the most successful trainers probably use it without even knowing the ?proper terms?. It comes natural to some folks, and those are the ?gifted trainers?. Initially, there cannot really be ?neutral responses? because that gives the dog the window of opportunity to ?break bad? and eat sheep (taking his own reward). Although, for my dogs, a lie down is becoming more ?neutral? than negative, they are learning to use it more as a bridge to getting the positive reward, and in the right mindset, they know that it?s a ?pause for thought, or a change of directions?, not a punishment. In the beginning, we are either physically blocking (stopping) the dog from interacting with the sheep (positive punishment) or letting the dog to move the sheep (negative reinforcement). The more the dog behaves in a way that is acceptable, the more negative reinforcement he gets. Sounds weird, but if you look at the above descriptions, you?ll understand it better. During all this interaction, I want the dog focused on the sheep, but listening to me with one ear for directions if I need to give them. If I don?t say anything, (which is my cue that he?s right) then the dog assumes he?s right and takes his reward ? moving the stock in the direction he?s going. So although ?Clickers? aren?t appropriate for training dogs with stock, I think if you understand operant conditioning and behavior modification techniques, you will be head and shoulders above the crowd.

[(Jess)]

Smokjbc -

 

You mentioned how your bc's are good around horses because you are hard on them when they misbehave with them, so what do you think is the appropriate disciplinary action for a puppy that gets too excited with a horse? I want her to know horses are NOT to be chased, but I don't want to ruin any herding desire either. My horses are pretty stubborn, so luckily, they won't run from her at all and will just stand there, so I am thinking that also would help out. I also plan on teaching her not to cross under the fence line unless I have given her the green light to do so.

 

Since she is only 9 weeks old, should I just keep her on a lead at my side until she's a bit older? I worry that since she's so young, that right now she may not even be able to fully comprehend discipline (therefore making it pointless). So, until she is older, I should probably limit her ability to find "trouble"..What do you think?

[(Jess)]

Laurie,

 

Very informative post! I think I may just not do the clicker training thing. I am already so new to herding in general, that it probably wouldn't be good to bring in too many new systems at once. I've always trained dogs the old fashioned way - praise and lots of repitition. I guess I will continue to do it that way

 

I would be concerned about my dog becoming to dependant on me for commands, not that it's the dogs fault, but probably MINE since I may not do everything right. I definatly don't want to make things harder, so I'm going to try keeping it simple.

 

Thank you very much for the detailed advice, I am essentially "dumb" when it comes to operating a working dog, or training one up. All of this advice is very helpful and it's making me think a lot!

[(Jess)]

To everyone who may be able to answer:

 

Here's a question my mom asked me earlier, she does not know that much about BC's, but she does know how energetic and what intense workers they are. She knows I am interested in herding, so she asked me this:

 

"What will you do if once you expose your pup to stock, she is unhappy when she isn't always working?"

 

The question seems legit, since I know some BC's are VERY "passionate" about working. Can they become obsessive workers once they realize sheep exist, and then only be happy working?

 

My thoughts from just observing working BC's, is that they seem to know when it's time to work, and when it's not time. Is this generally the case?

 

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance

[Denise Wall]

Laurie wrote:

 

So although ?Clickers? aren?t appropriate for training dogs with stock, I think if you understand operant conditioning and behavior modification techniques, you will be head and shoulders above the crowd.

I was hoping we wouldn't get in this same place again but here we are.

 

You should spend some time with this guy here if you want to see what will put you head and shoulders above the crowd. And I'll guarantee you won't be thinking about his brilliant understanding of operant conditioning and behavior modification techniques.

 

Developing a good stockdog is about good attitudes and good relationships not perfecting compartmentalized behaviors. The best thing you can do to put yourself "head and shoulders above the crowd" is to learn to understand stock.

[kajarrel]

The best thing you can do to put yourself "head and shoulders above the crowd" is to learn to understand stock.

Boy, this is the truth. So many of the errors I made with my young dog (now old) were because *I* couldn't read stock (and she could). . . Trouble is it's taken me about 10 years of owning sheep to really start to understand them, but what a difference it's made in my ability to handle them and use the dogs effectively. I'm finally a "partner" for my dogs.

 

Kim