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Preperations for a herding dog??


(Jess)
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Laurie offered an in depth explanation of her experiences with clicker training and how it translates in her working the dogs on stock - She did not say that she uses clickers when training on stock. I consider Laurie a real dog person. She observes and knows dogs. That's important right? It's also (more) important to understand stock, and I'm sure she understands that too, but just didn't state that in her post. We can't put everything about ourselves or each post would be a book.

Why do people on this board take a condescending tone with anyone who offers useful information that may include a phrase or association that irks some. I'm tired of it. Instead of quoting and picking apart another persons post, I suggest that useful (maybe not to you)information be taken as such and assume that we are all here to learn about helping our dogs be their best. No one way is the absolute perfect way to train. That is why I have countless tapes and books in addition to going to a wonderful trainer.

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Dep P,

 

Well, you're sure right that stuff pushes my hot button. But all that aside, I consider it misleading advice. I'd be willing to bet most experienced stockdog trainers would agree with me that Jessica would be much better served spending time with stock than learning about BF Skinner's operant conditioning principles.

 

Laurie and I have been round about this before. I doubt she's surprised at my response.

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Hi Denise - Yep, I remember our "conversation" from another list- and I greatly respect your opinion, actually have taken your advise regarding letting my dogs work more "instinctually" and keeping my big mouth shut!

Jessica asked about clicker training, and I gave her my honest answer along with some links for her to explore. I never suggested she use it (even short term), just that used correctly it is an effecting training tool. I also noted that I consider myself a novice when it comes to working stock...

I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about the "clicker" that some other folks propogated. Isn't Jessica allowed to hear both sides of the story and explore the possibilities?

I have a feeling from Jessica's many posts that herding will be an occasional game, not anything serious for her and her new pup. She has a cute new puppy from an obedience/frisbee dog breeder. She's a teenager who has a million things on her plate. She has to depend on her parents for transportation. She's bright, articulate and she wants to learn! I guess from now on I'll just sit back and let "the experts" make all the suggestions, but then, heck, one "so-called" expert on the other list has routinely suggest whacking the **** out of a pup to teach it to listen and obey...maybe he'll join in this conversation, too.

 

edited to say - oh- and yes if i lived closer to Roy and Debbie, I'd ask if they would adopt me...

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Laurie, despite my breeder, my dog does come from a line of mostly working dogs, so I do think she could be good potential for herding. Or basically anything I put infront of her I am hoping :rolleyes:

 

I don't know if you meant "game" in a bad way, but I don't consider anything with my animals a game, I take it serious and if I do get into something, it will be to take it seriously and make something of it, especially something that takes so much time and is such a big challenge. The reason I got a Border collie was not to "play", otherwise I would have just got another breed of dog. Not many take teenagers seriously, most doubt my ambitions, but that's okay and is understandable.

 

Thanks

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Laurie,

 

What misconceptions about clickers did other folks propagate? I went back through the thread and all I saw were several more-experienced handlers saying clickers had no place in a sheepdog's world and some less-experienced handlers saying it was okay as long as it wasn't used on stock. If you go strictly by experience level, those weren't misconceptions about using clickers on future sheepdogs. (Hope nobody gets too pissed at me for that observation.)

 

It's been said many times in many ways by many people that you just can't appreciate what will and what will not affect a dog later until you get to the highest levels and actually experience what's required of a dog at that level of training. And once you get there, you can look back and see things that affected them early on that you didn't notice or think important at the time.

 

Of course Jessica should hear everyone's opinion. No one here is claiming to be the ultimate expert. I'm just sayin...

 

I have a feeling from Jessica's many posts that herding will be an occasional game, not anything serious for her and her new pup. She has a cute new puppy from an obedience/frisbee dog breeder.
Good point. However, even if she doesn't end up working her pup on stock for whatever reason, there's just something that bothers me about the whole clicker/operant conditioning mindset even for companion dogs. The following is simply a personal thing. I have no strong feelings about it like I do about using these methods on stockdog hopefuls. It just seems to me the dogs never truly learn what's expected of them in a relationship.

 

I'll give an example. A friends of ours, who is incidentally a practicing child psychologist, imported a GSD puppy from Canada (so as to avoid the disease-ridden, structural mess that the American GSD has become). This dog was about six or seven months old when we went over for supper at their house a month or so ago. It was an absolute nuisance the entire night. This dog had been to obedience classes and had all the proper operant conditioning training. It did every thing she told it to do. It had learned its lessons well. It just had no idea of how it was supposed to behave.

 

I wish I could express myself better than this but the only way I know to say it is they can be made obedient by these methods but they don't seem able to generalize these things they learn to understand how they should behave overall. JMHO.

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"My thoughts from just observing working BC's, is that they seem to know when it's time to work, and when it's not time. Is this generally the case?"

 

Jessica, regarding your mom's concerns about how BC's are when not on stock, I believe your observations above are correct. My dogs love to work sheep, but when home and away from stock (I don't have sheep), are happy campers. I just need to clicker train them to not beg at the table.....JUST KIDDING!

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All but one listed is a border collie. Teddy is my 15 yo Maltese.

 

I did what alot of people do who get "hooked" into this herding world - moved to the country! Found a place next to the farm where I was taking lessons. So it's very convenient for me to stop by when I have time and work my dogs, and I can also help out with farm chores in exchange for sheep time. The great thing about that is that I'm learning about stock. For instance this past weekend I helped with worming. I didn't grow up on a farm, so there is a huge learning curve for me. I'm loving it. My husband also helps out - secretly I know he'd pay just for the chance to drive that tractor - and they think he's working hard! Anyone need their fields bush hogged?

 

(I didn't know what a bush hog was a few years ago!)

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Deb, we moved into the country 'cause of horses - I absolutely hate the city to be honest!

 

That's great you have so many BCs and they are all happy.

 

If my dog likes herding and has potential, I may let the trainer here work with her for a while, and then take lessons myself. I'd love owning sheep too, we have the space for them and I have the time (and I think they're pretty cute..LOL)

 

I think BC owners are different than most dog owners. BC people go to BIG extents to make their dogs happy, lol

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I'm not crazy about the city now either. Funny thing - my husband and I met while working on Capitol Hill. How things have changed. My friends can't believe that my favorite place to shop now is Tractor Supply.

So you sound like the perfect BC owner. You'll do amazing things with your baby and she'll take you to some wonderful places. Ask questions here, listen to and weed through the advice and find your own special way with your girl.

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LOL its funny you mentioned TSC. I was at a testing center of the JR college yesterday, and during my 30 min break, I walked over to Tractor supply across the street - the students gave me WEIRD looks :rolleyes::D

Even weirder, was when I returned to class with a small salt block (one of those couple lb ones, not big) sticking out of my purse!

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Hi Jessica,

 

You've certainly gotten a lot of information in this thread, and if I could point you back to just one piece of it that is the most important, it is what Denise said about learning to read livestock. Every minute you spend learning about the animals you intend to control with your dog will pay off much more than the time you spend in any puppy obedience class.

 

Going to a puppy obedience class might be a nice ego boost for you, because the chances are that your dog will learn things much faster than other dogs in the class. It might also be a good chance for your puppy to get socialized to settings where there are lots of other dogs, lots of people, and lots of noises and smells. None of this is particularly bad, but its relevance to a working sheepdog is pretty minimal.

 

As Blackacre pointed out training a puppy with clicks and treats teaches a dog that when it behaves as desired it will get a reward of some sort. I gather that there's a whole school of thought that this is a great way to train a stockdog, but I don't belong to that school. I've heard of people throwing treats to their dogs when they were at the "correct" point behind the sheep. My feeling is that if your dog even notices that you're giving it treats when it's working that you've got a major problem.

 

The other thing that's important to keep in mind is the difference between punishment and correction. Correction is administered at the exact instant that the infraction is occurring and is discontinued at the exact instant that the dog acknowledges the correction. Punishment is often delayed or protracted and based on the presumption that the dog knows it's done wrong. It usually doesn't.

 

Suppose your puppy starts chasing the goat. A correction would be to call the pup's name, or say, "Hey, you!" and get a hold of its line. As soon as the puppy stops chasing the goat, you're done. You go on with your business, and allow the puppy to find other things to do. Punishment would be chasing the puppy down, lecturing it, rolling it over, wagging your finger in his face, etc. The goat's in the next county and the dog has no idea what you're so upset about.

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WOW - I've never heard about anyone using clickers when working stock! Unreal. But to each his own.

Regarding young pups and stock - Novice disclaimer here - I let my 3 1/2 month pup go out with the other dogs to round up the guineas and chickens(they go in shelter at night). She's a bit wild, but I don't give any negative corrections. I step in a bit maybe, but she's changing and learning (maybe from the other dogs?) and watching. I can now say that'll do and she comes away with the others....sometimes. NO STRUCTURE at this point. So I hope that is what Bill is describing above as far as what you should do with interactions between your pup and your goat.

My thought is that they need to learn to co-exist here. Of course none of the dogs is outside unless we are out there. Even my best behaved dog would probably eat a chicken if left alone

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Jessica - to answer your question - no I certainly did not mean "game" in a negative sense - just that you probably were not planning on becoming a "professional shepherd", or that herding was the only activity you were planning on doing with your BC. Sorry if you misinterpreted my comment. I have 2 daughters who are a little older than you, but are still quite involved with their dogs and horses. I never doubted their commitment, and I don't doubt yours! I was the same way at your age. (I think people are just "born animal lovers" or they aren't, maybe there's a DNA marker for that.)

 

Denise - the misinformation I was referring to was the inference that clicker training a pup was bad for the mindset of a working dog, and that it taught a dog to be looking for a reward all the time. Your story about your child psychologist friend's GSD is the perfect example of how clicker training can be misused to end up with an unruly, ill behaved dog, especially by people whose dog is their "child substitute". (Of course, looking at the way some educated, seemingly bright people raise their kids today makes me cringe, too!) IMO, raising anything involves setting and ENFORCING ground rules, and as one of my favorite "clicker gurus" says - "Positive is not Permissive!"

 

You, Bill and Andrea are all right-on about the value of learning to read and understand stock, as they are the 3rd part of the equation that makes it different from any dog/handler interaction where stock isn't involved. I did not mention that in my original post - trying to be as brief as possible - but should have.

 

As far as the "head and shoulders above the crowd statement", all I meant was that a basic understanding of behavior shaping concepts would help a novice person become the best they can be. As I mentioned, the "Big Hats" I've trained with and observed, whether "formally educated" or not have that inate sense of timing and knowledge, and the years of experience that makes them so successful at what they do. They are the gifted ones, and some of us "not-so-gifted" will struggle to get even half that far.

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Since she is only 9 weeks old, should I just keep her on a lead at my side until she's a bit older? I worry that since she's so young, that right now she may not even be able to fully comprehend discipline (therefore making it pointless). So, until she is older, I should probably limit her ability to find "trouble"..What do you think?

>>>

 

I think in general that is a good idea- although my own dogs rarely see leads from the earliest age, its also the safest bet to keep a little one out of trouble. The correction Bill Fosher just described for chasing the goat is appropriate- only twice have I gotten much harder than that and that was at dogs that were committed to hitting a horse (like I described with Nellie- she hit the mares nose, belly and heels all in one quick motion ). The other dog was one that I took riding with me that would hit the heels of the horse I was on- in that case I got off the horse and gave him a pretty aggressive alpha-type scruffing along w/ a verbal correction. After that I was able to control the behavior with verbal corrections alone. Both of these dogs were much older than 9 weeks at that point and had already had significant training and an understanding of correction. I do believe 9 week old pups can understand correction, if you have presented it properly and the correction is appropriate. Right now I have a sheepdog washout that I treated too lightly when she was a puppy- she was pretty fancy and I was more in awe of her than I should have been (my first dog) and let her get away with too much as a pup. She got her tolerance very high up the ladder of corrections (see Bruce Fogts book, "Lessons from a Stockdog" for an excellent description of this) and I was never able to make much of her since any attempt at a correction would result in a war of the wills. I started the rest of my dogs much more strictly (not that I'm a drill sergeant or anyting, but there are consequences from the very beginning) and have never had a problem again with outright disobedience.

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Hi Bill, thanks for the information. I understand what Denise said, about spending time with the livestock as being most important to the training process. I can agree, because it's the same way with horses - I have spent years just observing them, and that has made me a better rider.

 

RE: the obedience classes, I agree that essentially in the long run for a working dog, obedience classes won't do much. That's why I just consider it a good social experience more than anything, I myself can teach the pup all the obedience commands right here at home so I'm not really going for her to learn commands.

 

Suppose your puppy starts chasing the goat. A correction would be to call the pup's name, or say, "Hey, you!" and get a hold of its line. As soon as the puppy stops chasing the goat, you're done. You go on with your business, and allow the puppy to find other things to do. >>>>>>>

 

So basically, it's better to redirect the behavior, rather than scold the dog harshly.

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Laurie, no apology necessary I just didn't understand your comment No, I don't plan on becoming a "professional shepherd", but if my dog does show interest in herding, I would like to take it seriously and let my dog do what's natural and probably even compete at nearby events. I'd like to even get a few of my own sheep, after all, the poor goat of mine does need some buddies!

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Originally posted by GottaHaveBC:

but if my dog does show interest in herding, I would like to take it seriously and let my dog do what's natural and probably even compete at nearby events. I'd like to even get a few of my own sheep,

That's how i got started, too. I came from a suburban non-animal oriented family, (but I was adopted, so that's my disclaimer :rolleyes: ). I went from horse training/breeding, to dog training (hunting American Foxhounds and Golden Retrievers)...I thought my Goldens were really smart til I got my first Border Collie...the rest is history... :D
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I just skimmed through most of these posts and there was a lot of good advise.

 

I think teaching her the basic commands, esp down, stay(or wait), come ( or here) are good things to do. How to walk on a loose lead and be tied and or crated.

 

I just spent a week at a Bob Vest clinic with my 2 dogs, one being a 9 month old New Zealand. He made great progress and we really got him off to a good start which I hopefully won't mess up to bad by next Sept when I see him again. He spent a lot of time in down stays in the area with dogs and sheep at times flying around him. My older dog had done some agility and is a rescue, she's my guinea pig. She is at best a chore dog and way to sensitive and worried about pleasing me. I pretty much figure I'll screw up my first dog and hopefully do better with my second and third.

 

Finally, you have to have a dog you can live with. Because I'm assuming she's not going any where even if she never herds a sheep a day in her life. My daughter in college got her border collie for her 15th birthday. I haven't tried to hook him on sheep, though he's interested. He cares more about being her companion and living with her at school (often in an apartment) and that is his place in life. She also works at a throughbred training farm and she doesn't need to worry about him over reacting to the horses. She'd rather have him with her in the barn as a disinterested companion than have to keep a closer eye on him in case he decides one of the horses needs correcting.

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