Oh GOD, a Ceasar wanna be

[kelpiegirl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZKfON2mr-Q

Lord. Ick. Now, I take great exception to the name of my blog being used Poor Lucy. Yes, she needs to learn manners, but.... Well, you all make your own judgements...

[flyer]

I could not watch more than 50 seconds. Calm her down? WT..??? Ridiculous. I detest intimidation being called training.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dont get it...what did he do that was so apperently bad? I didnt see anything remotly bad or "poor dog" about it. he didnt do anything that I dont do with dogs to chill them out all the time..its works like a charm and does no damage, mental or physical to the dog whatsoever...

[Root Beer]

It's not the worst thing I've ever seen done to a dog in the name of training.

 

That would be very far from my choice in working with the dog and I honestly don't think the dog really learned much of anything except "appease the loud, pokey man". Which might be useful around that guy, but not terribly useful out and about in the world where the man isn't handy to poke and "AH" at the dog.

 

Now that's my perspective. I know that many here will disagree.

 

I think the woman who owns the dog could do much, much better in a trainer. I do feel sorry for the dog and the owner because they could do way better. That dog has so much potential. Instead of squelching her enthusiasm, I'd love to harness it and channel it into structured activities.

 

But that's not everyone's preference.

 

Definitely not my cup of tea. Neither in training, nor in "entertainment". But then I'm not a ceasar fan, either, so my response is quite predictable!

[scomona]

The video didn't seem too bad to me... but I am not any kind of source for dog training.

 

However, if it was Shiloh I wouldn't even bother with the "touch", just the ah,ah sound is enough... but it really depends. When he is with sheep, he goes from 0-10 in a second and we have had to remind him several times to calm and stay. I think our herding instructor is a bit tough on him at times...but he honesty seems to respond very well to her corrections and is able to get to the sheep more quickly with each session.

 

Anyways- with no information about this dog or the owners etc.... it is really hard to judge. It kinda seems like the dog just needs to be exercised more and ignored if it is jumping and too excited. Shiloh will go into a sit pretty quickly if we ignore his hyper mood, once that happens he gets what he wants ( a walk or pat or food)... no need to be pinned on his side. That dog reminded me of him a bit... on her side and maybe thinking that it was game...just wanting to get it right and do the correct thing!

 

Just my oblivious 2 cents.

[flyer]

I dont get it...what did he do that was so apperently bad? I didnt see anything remotly bad or "poor dog" about it. he didnt do anything that I dont do with dogs to chill them out all the time..its works like a charm and does no damage, mental or physical to the dog whatsoever...

 

 

It wasn't anything awful, but really as Root Beer said, what is the dog learning? Nada. And I happen to think the fellow is being completely disrespectful. The animal is likely shutting down not relaxing. How could any animal relax when being poked and pushed around like that?

[geonni banner]

It's not the worst thing I've ever seen done to a dog in the name of training.

 

That would be very far from my choice in working with the dog and I honestly don't think the dog really learned much of anything except "appease the loud, pokey man". Which might be useful around that guy, but not terribly useful out and about in the world where the man isn't handy to poke and "AH" at the dog.

 

Now that's my perspective. I know that many here will disagree.

 

I think the woman who owns the dog could do much, much better in a trainer. I do feel sorry for the dog and the owner because they could do way better. That dog has so much potential. Instead of squelching her enthusiasm, I'd love to harness it and channel it into structured activities.

 

But that's not everyone's preference.

 

Definitely not my cup of tea. Neither in training, nor in "entertainment". But then I'm not a ceasar fan, either, so my response is quite predictable!

 

I agree. Not optimal, but not abusive per se. If you watched the whole segment, the dog was up, bouncing around and seemed to be in good shape mentally. But unless she is worked by another person, she will only stay "off" for the trainer. I'd like to have seen the owner brought in right away to gauge the dog's response to an "ah-ah" from her.

[Root Beer]

It wasn't anything awful, but really as Root Beer said, what is the dog learning? Nada. And I happen to think the fellow is being completely disrespectful. The animal is likely shutting down not relaxing. How could any animal relax when being poked and pushed around like that?

 

I didn't see relaxation. What I saw was the dog trying to figure out what was going to get the poking to stop. She finally just lay there and I'd say it was because she figured out that would get him to back off. That's appeasement, but not true relaxation. Relaxation, of course, is not simply the absence of active movement, but a truly relaxed state of mind.

 

Incidentally, I saw something interesting later in the video. At one point when the guy moved toward her, she rolled to the ground. Now, you might think, "that's good, she's submitting".

 

Well, I have a dog who does that. Not because of anything that I did, but she came from her previous owner like that. Any time she senses any kind of tension or pressure, she falls to the ground like that. Talk about an annoying habit! Honestly, I'd rather a dog that jumped up on me all day long. I can work with that and turn it into a plethora of good things. You can't do much with a lump. She has come a long way over the years and does it much less, but to this day the tendency remains.

 

One time she did that at the end of an Agility run. Well, she sometimes does that at the end of an Agility run when I stand over her to put the leash on her. Some guy came up to me and complimented me on "teaching my dog to submit". He got a blank stare. I was flying high on the rush of a qualifying run and I really had no clue what he was talking about. Maybe the guy in this video was his trainer? Really, it's something I'd like to never have in a dog again. I much prefer it when she stands there and beats her tail back and forth, or when Dean gives up snuggles after a great run.

 

No, I'd not be teaching a dog to do that. It is absolutely not something I'd want to instill in a young, eager dog. I want a training partner up on four legs unless I've cued a "down", thank you!

[juliepoudrier]

It wasn't anything awful, but really as Root Beer said, what is the dog learning? Nada. And I happen to think the fellow is being completely disrespectful. The animal is likely shutting down not relaxing. How could any animal relax when being poked and pushed around like that?

Wow, so the dog finally settles down lying on its side and it's shutting down? I think that's a bit of a stretch, especially without any background on the dog or anything else about the situation. The trainer hardly touched the dog during that entire event and yet the dog got the idea to settle down--I might call it "shutting down" if the dog were struggling while the human was holding it down, with the dog eventually giving up, but that didn't seem the case here to me. I didn't see any harm in what he did. I think he even said at some point that the dog just needs to know her boundaries (or something similar).

 

Disrespectful? Of whom? Lucy the dog?

 

ETA: I don't know how anyone can judge a dog's state of mind from that video. We can't see the dog's face/eyes clearly, we don't know how the dog normally reacts in any situation (except that she apparently jumps), and yet we can apparently make all sorts of assumptions about what the dog is thinking and feeling. Y'all are way better at interpreting a short video than I am, apparently.

 

FWIW, a dog jumping on me is likely to get an "Aahht!" and a rap on the nose. No doubt that would horrify some of you, but it's certainly not disrespectful of the dog, nor does it harm the dog. I do have one dog who became a jumper. She was so cute as a youngster that none of my co-workers (she used to go to work with me) would listen to me when I asked them not to encourage her to jump up and instead to give her a verbal correction for doing so (which would have worked very nicely). I finally stopped correcting her myself because I felt it was unfair to her when everyone else she knew was encouraging the very behavior I wanted to discourage. When I started working mostly from home and she was no longer exposed to the "enablers" I corrected the problem.

 

I really don't have anything against reward/reinforcement-based training, but it does get a bit old when folks constantly step up and lambast folks who use another method. The dog in the video was not abused/mistreated in any way. She got the message not to jump up on the trainer and in fact learned to replace that behavior with a sit. Will that translate to the owner? Who knows? Since we don't see what happened after that (i.e., we don't know if the owner was then called in and shown what to do), I don't think we can actually judge the ultimate effectiveness of the training.

 

J.

[Blackdawgs]

Incidentally, I saw something interesting later in the video. At one point when the guy moved toward her, she rolled to the ground. Now, you might think, "that's good, she's submitting".

 

Well, I have a dog who does that. Not because of anything that I did, but she came from her previous owner like that. Any time she senses any kind of tension or pressure, she falls to the ground like that.

 

Yes, I saw the same thing...the creation of a dog that goes to ground with pressure. I saw some dogs do this in a herding situation after they got confused and knew exactly how they had been "trained".

 

I agree that the video wasn't horrible. The dog in the video was actually very soft and good natured. Another dog would have bitten the trainer in the face. And therein lies the problem.

 

In my town, the sshhhing and the hand bites and the collar pops are very pervasive. Pretty harmless until one considers that these same folks are rolling dogs in the privacy of their own homes, some of these people will be bitten, and their dogs will then be killed.

[desertranger]

I would never use that method to calm a dog down. You can see it isn't working. The Lucy's anxiety levels kept going up.

[Guest echoica]

I don't presume to know much about this dog or trainer...but since we are discussing what we can by way of this video....

 

I agree that the dog was not harmed. HOWEVER, I don't see the purpose of the "relaxation" exercise at the beginning. Surely there would be better ways to achieve this relaxation that could be more fun and useful long term - Ummmm, say exercise to wear the dog out? Honestly, most dogs I have seen acting in this way, are simply under-stimulated.

 

So....I 100% agree with this statement made above.

 

Instead of squelching her enthusiasm, I'd love to harness it and channel it into structured activities.

[Root Beer]

ETA: I don't know how anyone can judge a dog's state of mind from that video. We can't see the dog's face/eyes clearly, we don't know how the dog normally reacts in any situation (except that she apparently jumps), and yet we can apparently make all sorts of assumptions about what the dog is thinking and feeling. Y'all are way better at interpreting a short video than I am, apparently.

 

That's interesting because to me a lot about Lucy's state of mind is very plain from her body language and facial expressions.

 

I guess I've had a very unusual amount of practice in reading dog's expressions and body language. It never occurred to me before that is not typical.

 

ETA:

 

. . . it does get a bit old when folks constantly step up and lambast folks who use another method.

 

That's what I often think, coming from the opposite point of view.

[Eileen Stein]

Incidentally, I saw something interesting later in the video. At one point when the guy moved toward her, she rolled to the ground. Now, you might think, "that's good, she's submitting".

 

Well, I have a dog who does that. . . . Any time she senses any kind of tension or pressure, she falls to the ground like that. . . .

 

If you're referring to what happened at 2:10 in the video, I saw it as Lucy offering the behavior of rolling onto her side, which probably seemed to her like a promising move in view of the fact that the guy had started out showing her that he wanted her to roll over onto her side. When that got no response/treat, she rolled right up again and sat in front of him, and when that got no response/treat, she turned away looking for something more interesting. It didn't look to me like a response to tension or pressure, or an act of submission, or something that was going to be a chronic problem behavior.

 

But of course I accept that my experience reading dogs' expressions and body language is nothing compared to yours, and that what we were really seeing in the clip was a dog who had totally shut down and was in a state of learned helplessness, appeasement, etc. How could it be otherwise, given the terrible things that were done to her?

 

. . . it does get a bit old when folks constantly step up and lambast folks who use another method.

 

That's what I often think, coming from the opposite point of view.

 

I know I'm getting forgetful, but I can't remember the last thread that was started by showing a clip of a R+ trainer in order to solicit agreement about how horrible it was.

[Rave]

The forced submissiveness at the beginning did nothing to "relax" or "settle" the dog. He was lucky the dog was middle of the road, neither too soft nor fearful, or it would've been a much different outcome with that first part, and I doubt we'd be seeing the published video. Based on what we've seen, I'd hazard a guess that this trainer's bag of tricks is pretty limited.

 

The most interesting thing of the whole video was the last frame, where it says this dog is up for adoption.

[Eileen Stein]

The most interesting thing of the whole video was the last frame, where it says this dog is up for adoption.

 

What's interesting about that? It seemed pretty obvious that the place was a rescue.

[juliepoudrier]

That's interesting because to me a lot about Lucy's state of mind is very plain from her body language and facial expressions.

 

I guess I've had a very unusual amount of practice in reading dog's expressions and body language. It never occurred to me before that is not typical.

Oh please. I guess what's plain to you and what's plain to me is quite different. And although you might suppose otherwise, I expect I've had as much or more practice as you when it comes to reading a dog's body language. I'm just not willing to make bold statements about what a dog is thinking and feeling based on that video clip.

 

Like Eileen noted, I didn't see the offered roll later in the video as appeasement but rather as the dog offering behaviors to see what would be rewarded. Gee, isn't that what most positive trainers work from?

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

The forced submissiveness at the beginning did nothing to "relax" or "settle" the dog. He was lucky the dog was middle of the road, neither too soft nor fearful, or it would've been a much different outcome with that first part, and I doubt we'd be seeing the published video.

Isn't it possible that this particular trainer read this particular dog correctly and realized that he wasn't dealing with a fear aggressive type that would try to take his face off for asking for submission? Isn't it possible that the rescue briefed him on the dog prior to his interaction with the dog, so he actually *knew* she wasn't the type to take offense at being asked to lie on her side quietly? I mean really we could create all sorts of scenarios to fit our particular viewpoints.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Oh please. I guess what's plain to you and what's plain to me is quite different.

 

That's apparent.

 

And that explains, to a large extent, why different people have different responses to the video. I think much than some desire to lambast anyone. (ETA: Of course, I don't speak for anyone other than myself, but that does seem to be the case to me).

 

And although you might suppose otherwise, I expect I've had as much or more practice as you when it comes to reading a dog's body language. I'm just not willing to make bold statements about what a dog is thinking and feeling based on that video clip.

 

Actually, I supposed you had. And I don't consider stating my observations as bold at all. I'm discussing what I see. To me that seems natural and normal, not bold. I am not going to pretend that I don't see what is plainly obvious to me because you disagree and consider my perspective to be an "assumption". If that's bold, then so be it.

 

Apparently we are seeing the discussion from different perspectives - just as we see the dog from different perspectives. Interesting parallel.

 

Like Eileen noted, I didn't see the offered roll later in the video as appeasement but rather as the dog offering behaviors to see what would be rewarded. Gee, isn't that what most positive trainers work from?

 

Nice use of sarcasm there!

 

I am simply not seeing what you and Eileen are. I'm seeing appeasement. And no, that's not what reinforcement based trainers work from. We don't get dogs to offer behaviors by trying to force them to "relax" and then screaming "AH!" at them. But hey - that's a far cry from the cookie waving stereotype we are usually portrayed by!

[Root Beer]

But of course I accept that my experience reading dogs' expressions and body language is nothing compared to yours, and that what we were really seeing in the clip was a dog who had totally shut down and was in a state of learned helplessness, appeasement, etc. How could it be otherwise, given the terrible things that were done to her?

 

I'm sorry, Eileen, but I never said that Lucy had "totally shut down", was "in a state of learned helplessness", or that "terrible things were done to her".

 

I did say that I saw appeasement behavior, and I still do. But please note that I clearly said that it wasn't the worst thing I'd ever seen done to a dog. Appeasement behavior is not objectively bad. I would not choose to train with appeasement as a goal, but there are times when appeasement behavior is a very good thing.

 

Should I accept that I was really seeing a relaxed dog and was in the optimal frame of mind for learning? How could it be otherwise, given the fact that the trainer used an "AH!"? Of course, if I said that was what I really thought, I'd be lying! I'm seeing something totally different.

 

I still would not choose this approach or recommend this approach, and I would handle the dog differently. From what I see in the video, I would love working with this particular dog. She's fantastic!

 

Honestly, I don't see why anyone has a problem with that. It's a different point of view and I am expressing it honestly and plainly. What is so bothersome about that?

 

I know I'm getting forgetful, but I can't remember the last thread that was started by showing a clip of a R+ trainer in order to solicit agreement about how horrible it was.

 

I was not specifically referring to a video. The posting of the Kelley article in the Coffee Break section would provide a similar example, though.

 

It goes both ways.

[Rave]

Isn't it possible that this particular trainer read this particular dog correctly and realized that he wasn't dealing with a fear aggressive type that would try to take his face off for asking for submission? Isn't it possible that the rescue briefed him on the dog prior to his interaction with the dog, so he actually *knew* she wasn't the type to take offense at being asked to lie on her side quietly? I mean really we could create all sorts of scenarios to fit our particular viewpoints.

 

J.

 

 

Well since he just met the dog, I doubt that's true. Sure someone may have made a prior assessment and passed that along, but all behaviorists and trainers I know watch the dog and make their own assessments, and typically spend more than 3 minutes to do it before holding a dog down. It's really unfortunate he calls himself a behaviorist - people might believe him.

 

I didn't look up the link provided, so didn't know it was a rescue dog. That wasn't obvious in their conversation.

[Rave]

LOL the dog rolling to appease when he reached down for her is offering a behavior?

 

In the sense that a reaction is a behavior, I guess that's technically correct in a "unique" way of thinking. So is a dog submissively peeing or biting. All offering behaviors. ;-)

[Pam Wolf]

How you can even compare this to CM is baffeling to me!

[flyer]

Wow, so the dog finally settles down lying on its side and it's shutting down? I think that's a bit of a stretch, especially without any background on the dog or anything else about the situation. The trainer hardly touched the dog during that entire event and yet the dog got the idea to settle down--I might call it "shutting down" if the dog were struggling while the human was holding it down, with the dog eventually giving up, but that didn't seem the case here to me. I didn't see any harm in what he did. I think he even said at some point that the dog just needs to know her boundaries (or something similar).

 

Disrespectful? Of whom? Lucy the dog?

SNIP

I really don't have anything against reward/reinforcement-based training, but it does get a bit old when folks constantly step up and lambast folks who use another method. The dog in the video was not abused/mistreated in any way. She got the message not to jump up on the trainer and in fact learned to replace that behavior with a sit. Will that translate to the owner? Who knows? Since we don't see what happened after that (i.e., we don't know if the owner was then called in and shown what to do), I don't think we can actually judge the ultimate effectiveness of the training.

 

J.

 

I don't see the dog settling down. I see her figuring out how to avoid any further poking.

 

I am not lambasting anyone. I commented on what I see in the video and how I think it is disrespectful to the dog getting in her space like that instead of actually having her participate fully in being taught something. FWIW, I am not a positive only trainer. Wish I were that good. I use corrections at times. I simply don't like seeing any animal made to submit. I believe it is fear based and that can range from anxiety to outright terror. I prefer to instill confidence. Just MHO.

[Eileen Stein]

I'm sorry, Eileen, but I never said that Lucy had "totally shut down", was "in a state of learned helplessness", or that "terrible things were done to her".

 

That's true, you didn't. You said that Lucy's state of mind was plain to you because you had exceptional experience in reading dogs' expressions and body language, and it had never occurred to you before that others (specifically Julie) would be so inferior in that regard. It was other posters to the thread who said the dog was shutting down and that terrible things were done to her. I can see that my reaction blended the two in a way that could have caused you to think I was talking only about you.

 

I still would not choose this approach or recommend this approach, and I would handle the dog differently.

 

Oh, ditto. But I'm wary of making judgments without having seen what occurred before the video commenced.

 

I was not specifically referring to a video. The posting of the Kelley article in the Coffee Break section would provide a similar example, though.

 

It goes both ways.

 

The neutral posting of a link to an article about a training method that claims to be better than the dominance model or the R+ model is similar to posting a video with "Oh GOD Lord Ick" invitations to express horror? Yup, we do see things differently.

 

I didn't look up the link provided, so didn't know it was a rescue dog. That wasn't obvious in their conversation.

 

I didn't look up a link either. I thought it was pretty obvious both from the conversation and the surroundings. If you look at the clip again, maybe you'll think so too.

 

LOL the dog rolling to appease when he reached down for her is offering a behavior? laugh.gif

 

In the sense that a reaction is a behavior, I guess that's technically correct in a "unique" way of thinking. So is a dog submissively peeing or biting. All offering behaviors. ;-)

 

A dog rolling to appease is not offering a behavior in the normal meaning of that term, or in the sense that I used it. But you are assuming that Lucy is rolling to appease, whereas I think that assumption is inconsistent with her observable demeanor.