Samsonsworld Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Our maremma will try to prevent us from leaving or moving forward by blocking our path; does that mean he's a herding dog? If your dog is working to prevent you from leaving a group, then yes, by definition it is herding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 On Animal Planet -- Saturday mornings, I think, is a dog trainer who takes on requests to teach different dogs tricks. I forget his name and didn't really watch the show -- the tv was just on and I was only able to hear some of what this particular program was about. Of course, what caught my attention was that the subject dog was a 9 yr. old border collie bitch. There were several small school aged kids in the household and the request was to teach the border collie to herd the kids to the school bus. I was going into work that day and couldn't watch, but my first reaction was HUH? In my book, herding kids has always been a no no and they were giving airtime to a request by someone who doesn't know better? Did anyone see the program? Before I become totally negative, maybe the trainer put a twist on the training to herd the woman's kids where it was acceptable? Just curious, but without knowing what happened, all I have to go by is "so & so will train a border collie to herd small children to the bus stop". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 My dogs are my shadows...they are next to me. The kitchen is their favorite spot as they run to the treat counter and sit in a row, looking so ever hopeful. Needless to say, they do get a treat. With up to 5 dogs int he house sometimes (four being the general number), they manage not to block me at all. When I get a new dog in the hosue, it doesn't take her long to figure out the routine. If they like a guest, they will shadow them too. It's quite funny when the guest is in the bathroom and all four follow....they know the guest will be sitting on a porcelain seat and they can surround them and get pets. I do tell the guests they need to shut the door as the dogs will follow them in. The guests who are dog people, alwys let the dogs in. Now when my mom visits, the dogs stick to her like glue, staring at her face. She feeds them a whole bag of treats, plus food from her plate, play balls to them for hours and coddles them to no ends. I am not about to tell my mom she can't do that. They adore her. I'll call them and they will look at me as if to say "No can do, I am busy now" so I just let them follow my mom. I call it the day of "No dogs listen to Diane Day". However if myu mom gives them a command they do it record speed. Oddly enough, my mom loves to watch me herd with the girls. So when she is here, I will do a demo for her. The girls do it in RECORD SPEED as they know as soon as they are done, a HUGE TREAT is wating for them at the gate. It's the only time they do it.....the other times I work them, they are more serious about work but when my mom watches them, it is like "Do quick herding for my other mom and get treats" They have formed a special bond with my mom since she was here for most of a year during my recovery form heart surgery. Since I was too weak to do anything with my dogs, she took it upon her to play with them. They carry on like pups for her but she loves it and it makes me smile. We had dogs when were growing up but my mom never liked them. She was actually scared of them. To see her love and spoil the girls is well worth it. They will shadow me but stick like glue to her. It's really enjoyable to see them all so happy together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 If your dog is working to prevent you from leaving a group, then yes, by definition it is herding. But he didn't say leaving a group. Just blocking his path, and I've seen my own LGD's -- though not working as LGD's, do the same and would not call it herding. If I saw Mark's maremmas or my CO's, make deliberate moves to bring an errant human back to a group of people (say we had visitors and therefore lots of people at the house), then I might use the word herding, but to simply block someone's path, in the mind of an LGD, that's not herding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Oh, Vickie, your house and mine sound the same in the morning, although I don't have the option of coffee to try and jump-start myself - the moment one dog imagines that I might be awake, they are all up and ready to go instantly! And since I don't have the luxury of a fenced yard, I have to go outside with them. Since Dan is on the long line for most trips out right now, that means I'm out in it, rain or snow or sleet or hail. Human beings need to awake with the joie de vivre that Border Collies have early in the morning! Sue, don't you just love the first catapult off the bed in the morning which happens when you make that first stretch of your body when beginning the process of waking up, subtle though it might be. And then the catapulters sound the alarm -- "She's up! She's up! Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! Go out. Go pee! Oh boy!". If I have the nerve to go to take care of my own needs first, there's no room to move in my small bathroom. They're all giving me the EYE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Celt is my alarm clock dog. If I don't demonstrate any visible or auditory clues that I might be waking, he touches my eye with his nose. That causes me to open it and, "Viola! She's awake!" Since none of the dogs spend the night on the bed (well, Celt sometimes spends some time there), most of the action comes from the floor. Once Celt's determined that I'm awake (and he's determined that I am awake, if you get my drift), he's bouncing and making his woo-woo sounds, Megan begins barking shrilly (deaf dogs make noise, I've found, lots of noise, just so you know they are there), and Dan starts trying to get someone, anyone, to begin to play with him. The clues that alert Celt to "it's wake-up time" include my swallowing, rolling over, surreptitiously checking my watch, or certain other "morning sounds" that I won't mention by name. Any and all are a clarion call to the loose the hounds! Well, loose the Border Collies! Ed is fortunate - I take the dogs out and he goes back to sleep. Even if I pottied them and crated them, by that time, I'd be so far beyond the ability to sleep that it would do no good to try even on a day that I (in theory) could. And when I bring the paper in so Ed and I can read it in bed, that's when both Megan and Dan think it's time for pets and belly-rubs, while Celt is off staring at a cat somewhere. They are worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 If your dog is working to prevent you from leaving a group, then yes, by definition it is herding. So, we've now defined "herding behavior" so loosely that it is basically useless to describe ANY dog as a "herding breed" dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 My dog is my shadow alright, but the sun is always behind me. I taught her early on that backing up in front of me is ok as long as it doesn't affect my speed of travel and she doesn't get close enough to be a tripping hazard. I am amazed sometimes how fast she can go backwards - seemingly never breaking eye-contact but almost never backing into anything... She only does it in the house - or when I'm wielding the holy Wubba or Frisbee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samsonsworld Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 But he didn't say leaving a group. Just blocking his path, and I've seen my own LGD's -- though not working as LGD's, do the same and would not call it herding. Then no, but if you he is going to argue against my case by what his dogs are doing, then at least allow me to define my criteria for why I consider my dog's behavior as herding as I've mentioned groups several times. There seems to be some questions regarding my remarks that they can herd non-stock animals. I was simply trying to clarify because I obviously didn't do a very good job up front. I certainly think it can be instinctive and not always a learned behavior. I didn't teach it to my dog and if it was learned, how? And why didn't my other BC pick it up??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samsonsworld Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 So, we've now defined "herding behavior" so loosely that it is basically useless to describe ANY dog as a "herding breed" dog. I guess you can write to Merriam-Webster. Maybe they can add a disclaimer for BCs. The behavior doesn't count unless it's taught and used on stock animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 In my mind "herding" is more complex than performing one or two behaviors that are part of "herding". You certainly wouldn't say that a child banging on the keys of a piano is really "playing the piano" even though the act of striking keys is part of playing the piano. One wouldn't realistically claim that every child that bangs on the keys of a piano will be a pianist so why claim that a dog that heads something is "herding"? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Human beings need to awake with the joie de vivre that Border Collies have early in the morning! Amen to that! When a Border Collie in our house has detected movement of the slightest sort, they, too, are all up and ready. The poor mutt always looks so put out--he's the one creature in the house who would really love to sleep in (besides the people). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Amen to that! When a Border Collie in our house has detected movement of the slightest sort, they, too, are all up and ready. The poor mutt always looks so put out--he's the one creature in the house who would really love to sleep in (besides the people). When I make a first sign of awakening, my BC jumps up from her bed into mine and snuggles up. She puts her head down and we both sleep a while longer. If longer for me turns out to be more than half an hour I get tickly-whiskers on the side of my face. "C'mon mom, gotta go pee soon!" Then there is always a period of snuggling, tickling, and sometimes rowdy wrestling before I actually get up. The cat views this from a safe distance with a look of lofty disdain... I can't imaging getting up without this ritual. This is the only dog I've ever had that likes to be bear-hugged. She loves it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 The notion that any dog going through the same motions as dogs while herding means the dog is exhibiting herding behaviors (and/or has the herding instinct) is utter nonsense. This nonsense has been promoted by the AKC to extend the notion that ALL dogs of herding breeds HAVE the herding instinct. Herding is not a singular behavior but a collection of genetically linked canine behaviors that blend together in varying degrees to yield what I'll call the herding instinct. These behaviors clearly exist in many if not all breeds to varying degrees. These behaviors didn't magically appear in the herding breeds; the herding breeds were developed by collecting dogs that strongly exhibited the desired behaviors and then selectively bred for those behaviors. Dogs of the herding breeds MAY have retained many of the canine behaviors that make up the herding instinct; however, simply having some of these behaviors does not mean these dogs have the herding instinct. If this were really true, then all dogs (every pup of every litter) of the herding breeds (and some dogs of other breeds) could be trained into useful stockdogs. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Mark, I beg to differ It depends on who's kid is playing and if the mother is in the room. If momma's there, then yes, that wee tyke IS playing. If babysitter? Then, the little brat is pounding on the keys In my mind "herding" is more complex than performing one or two behaviors that are part of "herding". You certainly wouldn't say that a child banging on the keys of a piano is really "playing the piano" even though the act of striking keys is part of playing the piano. One wouldn't realistically claim that every child that bangs on the keys of a piano will be a pianist so why claim that a dog that heads something is "herding"? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest echoica Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 My puppy is due in April. I've vowed that she will not be a jumper. Good luck with that. Just keep her away from anyone who likes dogs - I speak from experience. Pam HA this made me chuckle! So true! Most of my friends are pretty good about it but my mom encourages my dogs to get all excited/jumpy...then complains that they are not obedient later *throws hands up in the air* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 The notion that any dog going through the same motions as dogs while herding means the dog is exhibiting herding behaviors (and/or has the herding instinct) is utter nonsense. This nonsense has been promoted by the AKC to extend the notion that ALL dogs of herding breeds HAVE the herding instinct. Herding is not a singular behavior but a collection of genetically linked canine behaviors that blend together in varying degrees to yield what I'll call the herding instinct. These behaviors clearly exist in many if not all breeds to varying degrees. These behaviors didn't magically appear in the herding breeds; the herding breeds were developed by collecting dogs that strongly exhibited the desired behaviors and then selectively bred for those behaviors. Dogs of the herding breeds MAY have retained many of the canine behaviors that make up the herding instinct; however, simply having some of these behaviors does not mean these dogs have the herding instinct. If this were really true, then all dogs (every pup of every litter) of the herding breeds (and some dogs of other breeds) could be trained into useful stockdogs. Mark Well said, Mark. There was a person on a different forum who posted something about her dog with the subject line "herding behavior question" and proceeded to talk about the dog wearing around the other dogs. Several folks commented that letting one dog "work"another is unacceptable. Later the OP came along and clarified that her dog wasn't "working" the other dogs but was weaving between her and the other dogs when they walked and that the dog also exhibited this weaving (wearing) behavior when excited at agility. I think this is a prime example of people misinterpreting supposed herding behaviors and dismissing msibehaviors as herding behaviors. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 The notion that any dog going through the same motions as dogs while herding means the dog is exhibiting herding behaviors (and/or has the herding instinct) is utter nonsense. ...... These behaviors clearly exist in many if not all breeds to varying degrees. These behaviors didn't magically appear in the herding breeds Spot on. Both my mongrel and my BC display some behaviours typical of herding (not exactly the same ones) but I wouldn't claim that either has sufficient herding instinct to make a good working dog. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I think it is more useful to think of Border Collie behavior as being informed or influenced by the selection for working ability that characterizes the breed (or at least well-bred examples of it) rather than to throw everything into the wastebasket category of "herding behaviors." It is also important to differentiate between these "informed behaviors" and actual herding behavior that occurs in the context of real work. I have yet to see a Border Collie getting "herdy" (I hate that term, but the sport people use it a lot and it's pretty useful descriptively) around say, people or other dogs, who actually appears to believe that he or she is truly working the people or dogs. For example, Fly will do little "outruns" on Solo and "fetch" him back when he plays ball (yes, I allow her to do this -- she is 11 years old and pretty much retired) but it is pretty apparent that she does not really think she is moving him. She has no influence on where he goes and is obviously just following him along, which is certainly not what she does when she works sheep. Fly is an experienced working dog, who spent her first three years in rural Wales, and knows the difference. She is NOT "herding Solo" but her stereotyped habitus may lead some people to think that she is. Therefore, I do not consider what she is doing to be "herding behavior," which implies that she is actually working. What she is engaging in is a fairly normal canine behavior -- chasing another dog who has a ball -- but the WAY that she is doing it is informed in part by the history of selection that resulted in her. For me, "herding" or "working" implies that the dog is consciously attempting to influence movement AND making it happen. This means it's not impossible that Border Collies may try to work people or other dogs, but I haven't personally seen it. What I have seen are a lot of "herdy"-looking behaviors that are actually generic dog behaviors but are misinterpreted because Border Collies tend to stare and be crouchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I've always felt like having a puppy - and any dog, for that matter - should be a fun thing. If you get too hung up on every little behavior thing it can take all of the joy out of owning a dog. I love seeing their personalities develop. My dogs may not be the best behaved in the group but I just really enjoy them. They are both so funny and so much fun to have around. Its really hard to be depressed when they are around because they have such a joyful approach to everyday life. DITTO! My 2yr old child stands on the coffee table and does the hula. Children shouldn't stand on tables, but God almighty, it makes me laugh every single time! Personality. Embrace it. How boring if everyone followed the rules all the time. One behavior does not mean it will be an every day thing. Enjoy your puppy. Let it play, explore and grow. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 So, yes, the behavior in many cases *is* unique to herding breeds. And it can be funny, cute, or not. I think as long as people (and I'm not referring to anyone specifically in this thread, but rather the general puppy raising public) recognize that while it may be cute it could also be a problem, and that while the behavior stems from instinct that doesn't make it uncorrectable, then these discussions wouldn't happen on such a regular basis. I'm so glad that you made this point. I've seen the comment "this is not herding instinct, this is bad behavior" many times on this board, and I was never sure how to interpret this. I personally think it is interesting to look at specific behaviors common to certain breeds , but being aware of them doesn't mean that I don't think the behavior shouldn't or couldn't be changed. Here's an idea for an intersting post- members could list behaviors that they feel are common mostly to Border collies and other herding breeds. With the list of behaviors the posters could also include how they dealt with the behaviors. Just an idea.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 (Sorry for dup post. I don't see how to delete) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.