Free to good home. Non-working Border Collie.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

It sounds to me like ErinKate is simply following the "SOP" as has been demonstrated by so many on these BC Boards. Wouldn't everyone normally be questioning why a person would breed a dog that doesn't work? Of course we do not know the whole situation; we don't know whether the free bitch has had pups or not, if so whether she was bred before or after he acquired her, whether it was a purposeful breeding or an accident.

 

From the information provided both here and on Eric's website, IMO it appears that the non-working dog may be the bitch who whelped the litter, but I can't be sure. As far as I know Eric seems to have a good reputation, but I really know very little about him. I am not taking sides to defend him or to argue against him. I'm simply making a point that I don't think any other person would be let off the hook so easily by BC Boards members without further clarification. Any other person who had posted the OP about the dog, those photos on his or her website, and coincidentally the unregistered pups for sale, would probably already have received several emails from the more assertive members around here. I don't think EK is off base for asking these questions, although I don't get the sense she was motivated to ask because she is interested in adopting the dog--but EK you can directly answer that for us if I'm incorrect.

 

I don't get why it's okay to question folks (okay, in many threads it's more like crucify) unless they are "Big Hats" or known to some people. Then suddenly no one can ask a question without being jumped on just for asking.

[ErinKate]

I don't see why he owes anyone an answer on the public forum.

Because he posted it in a public forum. If he didn't want to discuss it, he could have emailed me.

[ErinKate]

And yes, I was, and am really interested in her. My mom lives in Idaho, and it wouldn't be anything to send the dog there until I head that way next month.

[Shetlander]

I don't get why it's okay to question folks (okay, in many threads it's more like crucify) unless they are "Big Hats" or known to some people. Then suddenly no one can ask a question without being jumped on just for asking.

 

I was wondering that myself. Asking if a dog up for adoption has recently been bred (accidentally or otherwise) seems a reasonable enough question.

[PSmitty]

It sounds to me like ErinKate is simply following the "SOP" as has been demonstrated by so many on these BC Boards. Wouldn't everyone normally be questioning why a person would breed a dog that doesn't work? Of course we do not know the whole situation; we don't know whether the free bitch has had pups or not, if so whether she was bred before or after he acquired her, whether it was a purposeful breeding or an accident.

 

From the information provided both here and on Eric's website, IMO it appears that the non-working dog may be the bitch who whelped the litter, but I can't be sure. As far as I know Eric seems to have a good reputation, but I really know very little about him. I am not taking sides to defend him or to argue against him. I'm simply making a point that I don't think any other person would be let off the hook so easily by BC Boards members without further clarification. Any other person who had posted the OP about the dog, those photos on his or her website, and coincidentally the unregistered pups for sale, would probably already have received several emails from the more assertive members around here. I don't think EK is off base for asking these questions, although I don't get the sense she was motivated to ask because she is interested in adopting the dog--but EK you can directly answer that for us if I'm incorrect.

 

I don't get why it's okay to question folks (okay, in many threads it's more like crucify) unless they are "Big Hats" or known to some people. Then suddenly no one can ask a question without being jumped on just for asking.

 

My thoughts, exactly.

[geonni banner]

FWIW... a newbie's perspective.

 

I didn't reply to the OP because I'm not in the market for a new dog, but when I saw it I read it, and the first thing that ran through my mind was, "Uh-oh, this one will bring out the kamikazes."

 

My second thought was, "Wonder why the OP didn't post a picture(s)?"

 

The brevity of the OP sort of incites curiosity, that I understand. But we don't know how this pup's situation came about, and unless we are looking for a pup it seems to me that individually we really don't need to know. It might be productive to post something about how people on these boards are trying to promote and support breeding for working ability only, and why.

 

I did not go to the website which had pictures of the pup, so I can't comment on that, but I have a feeling that if the OP had posted 3 pics of the pup and said something like, "This little cutie needs a home - probably not a working home, as she doesn't know a sheep from a handsaw, but she's a real fine pup otherwise." he would have been inundated with friendly, helpful suggestions and people cooing over what a doll she was.

 

If I was in the market for a pup I would contact the OP via e-mail or PM. If I was was really unhappy about the answers to my inquiry I might be motivated to post the facts on the boards.

 

I know I'm echoing some things that have already been said here. Don't remember who said what - don't much care. No offense intended, just thinking out loud. Ok, so bite my muzzle and remind me of where I am in the pack hierarchy.

[kelpiegirl]

From what I saw on the website, yes, this bitch who is free has indeed had a litter- at eight months.

[Sue R]

If this man, Eric, had not been hoping to find a good and loving home for this bitch, no matter what her history or his dog management, he could have simply shot her and dumped her or put her on Craigslist, or even advertised her as a "breeding bitch". Whether or not anyone here might approve or disapprove (or even really understand) the situation, this seems like a nice young dog that could use a loving home - and what better location than these boards to look for that home?

 

Most ranchers/farmers aren't in the position to spend a lot of time on the internet. Much more important and pressing matters demand their time. Instead of roasting this guy and making suppositions (right or wrong though they may appear to be), is anyone in a position to offer this little bitch with the sweet face a good home?

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

I truly do not understand why there is so much confusion about whether the bitch that Eric is trying to place is the same bitch that is the dam of the non-registered puppies. I copied the following passages from Eric's website:

 

"Free to good home. Non-working Border Collie. I was given a non-reg. female when she was about 8 months old. I have had her for a while now and she shows no interest in working at all. She is very shy and sweet female. I am looking for a good home for her. She is Red/White, medium coat. I don't think she was "abused" however, I do think she was constantly chased off livestock when she was a pup and showed any interest at all. Perhaps she will come good one day. Contact Eric 541 215 9109 eric@harlowshillswestcoast.com"

 

and

 

"For Sale: Non-Registered Border Collie Puppies. We have a second litter of pups from a non-registered female Border Collie. Mother is Rosie. She is working full-time on our ranch. The father is a registered male name Dose. He is also working full-time on our ranch. Price $50 per. Contact Eric 541 215 9109 eric@harlowshillswestcoast.com"

 

Eric's description of the bitch he is trying to place says that "she shows no interest in working at all", and his description of the dam of the litter says that she is "working full-time on our ranch". These are obviously two different bitches!

 

Regards,

 

nancy

[Deanna]

I agree, nancy. That's what I read, too. It mystifies me how people are concluding that this red/white female needing a home is the same bitch that had the litter. From what I read on the website (including what you copied here), it's a totally different dog.

[Lenajo]

I agree, nancy. That's what I read, too. It mystifies me how people are concluding that this red/white female needing a home is the same bitch that had the litter. From what I read on the website (including what you copied here), it's a totally different dog.

 

They see what they want to see Deanna. I agree it makes about as much sense as somebody looking for a non-working pet 2000 miles from where they live.

[Smokjbc]

I agree, nancy. That's what I read, too. It mystifies me how people are concluding that this red/white female needing a home is the same bitch that had the litter. From what I read on the website (including what you copied here), it's a totally different dog.

 

Glad to see I'm not crazy- I went there and saw the same thing.

 

And very good point Sue- I'd personally hate to see a person that chose to find a home for this type of dog rather than shoot her decide not to bother with a forum where he is most likely to find a good match. A friend of mine has inherited several dogs from one rancher friend of ours because if they work too well, they are usually "in the way" and get shot. I wish I was joking. The only thing that saved those dogs from a bullet was a person with their hand out to take the dog, no questions asked. Not suggesting Mr. Harlow would do so if he doesn't find a home, but it seems to me that he already took in a questionable dog, it didn't work, and now he's trying to do right by her. Even if she had had an accidental litter- I don't see how it would help the dog to make it hard to find her a good home.

[Journey]

It sounds to me like ErinKate is simply following the "SOP" as has been demonstrated by so many on these BC Boards. Wouldn't everyone normally be questioning why a person would breed a dog that doesn't work? Of course we do not know the whole situation; we don't know whether the free bitch has had pups or not, if so whether she was bred before or after he acquired her, whether it was a purposeful breeding or an accident.

 

Not really. No where did it state he bred her, she's not from him, she was given to him, she does not work, he runs a huge livestock operation. No one knows the whole story w/o asking him, which seems to be near impossible for some to grasp as to "why" they should contact him (as his post indicated). He's not a big time breeder, he "works" his dogs probably more than most on these boards do or would ever dream of, they don't trial, they "work" a few thousand head of sheep. He's not refusing to take one back that wound up in rescue. His website, imo, pretty clearly states about the pups he has. he's not a puppy mill, he's not breeding and registering with ACK then advertising "they could work if I had time".

 

Truthfully, maybe he should have taken the easy route and dumped her in the shelter, or *gasp* shot her....then the innuendos and rumors would not be necessary. But hey, he tried being up front and telling anyone interested to contact him. I have - has anyone else?

 

I don't get why it's okay to question folks (okay, in many threads it's more like crucify) unless they are "Big Hats" or known to some people. Then suddenly no one can ask a question without being jumped on just for asking.

 

Questions are fine to the OP, which no one seems to want to *do*, then they could relay info here if they are so inclined. All the ones I recall "crucified" as you put it were NOT working (in the true sense) people.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dont get it either lol, I find the website pretty easy to follow..nowhere does it say she was bred..heck it doesnt even say she is 8 months old! it says she was GIVEN to him WHEN she was 8 months old and he has had her for several months! the unregistered litter obviously isnt hers, gievn that descrpitions clearly states that the dam is working full time on his ranch and that this is her SECOND litter.

 

if your interested in the dog, then contact him, as a potentional adopter that is YOUR job, why the heck would he contact the potential adopter when he clearly stated to please contact HIM?

[ErinKate]

I think this has gotten way way away from the point. Fellow board member states they have a dog to rehome. I view the pic, see that she is bagged up, and ask if she is preg. or just had pups. ANYONE who posts on this forum that they have a dog to rehome is going to be asked some questions. Why wouldn't I ask questions? Being directed to a link that only says she isn't working out, does not answer the question. I don't want to take a preg. bitch.

And yes, I would rather get a dog from "fellow dog lovers". I droll over the reds, someone offers up a red that they know a background on, I am going to inquire. My mom lives about 60 miles from him, sorry some of you find it rediculous to consider her. If Solo were offered, I WOULD DRIVE TO ALASKA to get that dog.

Why some of you are acting like it is a sin to ask about a dog I am not sure. I would openly discuss any dog I was rehoming on this board. Why not?

[Sue R]

ErinKate - I may have missed it but did you email him directly and ask about this little girl? If so, I am curious to know what you found out, if you are still interested in her, and (if not) would you be able to share what you found out here in case some one else is interested.

 

I'm wondering, not being critical.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I personally think it's a little confusing that there are apparently two red dogs with similar names who are both unregistered, and apparently one works and had pups and the other doesn't work and hopefully didn't have pups. And I'm not the only one who found it confusing, because others have said the same thing.

 

The point I'm making, again, but hopefully better this time, is that I believe ErinKate had the right to question the situation, either on the Boards where Eric originally posted (and therefore it may have been reasonable to believe he'd follow up and look at the message board again), or privately. I don't really support the WAY EK asked the questions (the "tone of voice"), but I don't think she was totally off-base for asking, and I'm sort of "defending" her right to ask.

 

All the ones I recall "crucified" as you put it were NOT working (in the true sense) people.

 

So therefore it's OKAY to "discuss" for pages on end non-working breeders by name on this website, and post certain types of comments that flirt with libel, and email the breeder to point out their stupidity (and share replies with the Boards), and declare that all that is in the name of "educating" people new to the breed who the crappy breeders are and how to pick out the good ones...BUT, when a working dog person's name comes up, let's not ever discuss or question? <-- Directed at general "you" on the Boards, not @ Karen specifically.

 

My comments in this thread are totally NOT about Eric or this dog, so Eric if you are reading this, I hope you understand and my apologies to you if anyone has confused my comments with an opinon regarding you placing a dog that needs a home. Nor are my comments directed toward you, Karen; I quoted your post to try to make it clear what I'm really posting about. I sick of the double-standard about it being "OK" to discuss certain people by name and the attitude of some Boards members and I guess the moderators seems to be: "they can come online and defend themselves" (apparently without a thought as to whether the person can get online or even knows this forum exists). But in a thread not long ago, names were named when someone disagreed with those folks' breeding practices and decisions...and those names were Open handlers. And what happened to that thread? The entire thread was deleted. Why? Nothing said in that thread was any worse or any more libelous than in any other thread about breeding that's been posted on these Boards (and I rather thought it was a bit LESS so).

 

I don't agree in principal with naming names publicly (although I understand "whisper campaigns" can be equally damaging)...but if SOME names are going to be named and those individuals' practices are going to be questioned, it should be allowed to name any name that someone disagrees with, and why they disagree. That's what started the deleted thread, right? Someone wanted to discuss breeding practices they feel passionately about, but it was "censored."

 

I know... now I will be reminded these are not my message boards and decisions aren't up to me, and I should take my ball and go home, and don't let the door hit me on the way out, and all that. I really just needed to say what's been frustrating me for a very long time, and that is that I don't feel there is a fair policy about what (or who) can and can't be discussed. Or crucified, even.

[NCStarkey]

Hello again,

 

I just looked at the photos of the bitch Eric is offering for placement, and she does indeed look as if she is either pregnant or has recently had pups. I had based my previous post about the identity of the dam of the non-registered pups on the comments on Eric's website, and I still believe that the pups listed on the website are not out of the placement bitch. So, I feel that ErinKate's query is quite reasonable, and hopefully Eric will have time soon to respond (either on the boards or privately).

 

Regards,

nancy

[toney]

The point is if ErinKate really wanted the dog,she would have emailed or called the guy. He is a working border collie breeder with a rescue dog given to him,which is taking up space, room and time that his other dogs need. He states she can't contribute to the farm work, but would make a good companion, so he comes onto a board forum filled increasingly with companion type owners, versus working dog owners, and offers to place her.

 

He doesn't breed tons of litters for all those cool colors, or state inaccurately what his dogs can or cannot do- he works his dogs so he shouldn't be denigrated like those who do. That's not a double standard, because it fits in with the stated goals of this forum.

 

If someone wants the dog, email the guy!

 

He's probably not going to haunt these boards like some people do, looking at the number of times he's posted at all. Lots of people are too busy working their dogs to spend an inordinate amount of time lurking on these boards.

[ErinKate]

The point is if ErinKate really wanted the dog,she would have emailed or called the guy.

 

He's probably not going to haunt these boards like some people do, looking at the number of times he's posted at all. Lots of people are too busy working their dogs to spend an inordinate amount of time lurking on these boards.

 

I am not understanding why if the guy came here to advertise the dog, and then came back to give me more info, you guys don't think it is ok to post on the thread! That is the dumbest thing I have heard! No one asked him to "haunt" the boards, just check the thread he started. That only makes sense.

 

Sue--yes I emailed him today and hope to hear back from him. No, after this uproar, what ever he emails me back I will keep private. Because apparently giving away a dog has to be done totally in private.

[juliepoudrier]

Hello again,

 

I just looked at the photos of the bitch Eric is offering for placement, and she does indeed look as if she is either pregnant or has recently had pups. I had based my previous post about the identity of the dam of the non-registered pups on the comments on Eric's website, and I still believe that the pups listed on the website are not out of the placement bitch. So, I feel that ErinKate's query is quite reasonable, and hopefully Eric will have time soon to respond (either on the boards or privately).

 

Regards,

nancy

Thanks for posting this Nancy. When I was online earlier today and saw Eric had posted a link to pictures of the dog in question, my first thought on seeing the photos was that the bitch had recently whelped. Those are some very full mammary glands. I just got done reading through this whole thread (been working dogs and loading/stacking hay all day) and find all these folks jumping on EK for asking what I think is a legitimate question. And I agree with Megan as well--we as a group certainly are not behaving consistently in our treatment of this situation vs. all the other breeders who get outed here (of course no one outed Eric, per se, but why anyone would slam EK for asking about what amounts to a health status of the bitch is beyond me). Accidents happen, and if the bitch was accidentally (or deliberately) bred, I see no harm in noting that. I would think it pertinent information for a potential adopter to know if their adoptee has recently whelped a litter.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I find it rather strange myself, that no one here can see the difference between the following:

 

~~a rancher who had a dog dumped on him, took care of it, attempted to see if it would work, and having seen it won't, finding the dog a pet home by posting an majority pet board

 

versus

~~USBCHA open handlers who regularily breed their dogs to produce AKC breeding stock

 

~~rampent millers who simple breed anything to make money and then dump the dogs as "pets" or "rescues"

 

I find the difference very clear here, and EK is right, you can't post a pet/non-working placement on any forum because of the flack in generates. Unfortunately, her type of posting is the flack generator! From accusations (slavery, really?) to making zero attempt to actually read the site in question before opening ones mouth.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmmm...dumped? He traded a truck for the dog, so I'd hardly call that "dumped."

 

I'm not quite clear on what you're trying to say with your A vs. B vs. C comments, Wendy. I don't think anyone has been bashing Eric as a *breeder.* I'm not sure if you're addressing Meagan's complaint or not, but the way I see it, if someone came along and offered a dog for adoption and posted a photo of a dog who was apparently pregnant or had recently whelped, and that person were, say, a sport breeder, you don't think folks on this forum would have jumped all over the evidence of the dog having been bred? I think that's the point Meagan was making, and it's certainly the point I was seconding.

 

As for the comments about reading the site in question, it seems like an awful lot of folks didn't bother to look at the picture of the dog in question before informing EK that she was quite out of line for asking about whether the bitch had had puppies. Many of the folks who posted to this thread clearly went to the website and saw the reference to pups for sale, and concluded that EK was mistaken in her assumption about the bitch being rehomed, when in fact, had they actually looked at the posted pictures they might have understood EK's confusion on that matter.

 

I didn't understand the slavery comment, but then I didn't read Eric's entire site. I had read the sheep camp part after suggesting to Liz P that it might make a good working vacation for her (different thread), but I certainly did look at what pups were available this morning after seeing the picture of the non-working bitch in need of a home, trying to figure out if she'd had puppies.

 

I certainly wouldn't say that Eric has done anything wrong here by trying to rehome a non-working dog, but I don't see what was wrong with EK asking the question either. And I see nothing wrong with asking that question here, where the original post was made, vs. privately. Clearly others were wondering the same thing WRT to the bitch in question.

 

J.

[Bryna]

Okay, hope nobody jumps all over my case about this, but I felt a had to post this.

 

I checked out this dog and the website when first posted, and again when The Sheep Guy posted the link to the pictures, because my sister-in-law is currently looking for a dog. Yes, I am in Oregon. When I looked at pictures, a few questions did immediatly come to mind that lead me to investigatge the site more thoroughly. Not wanting to stir the pot, I didn't post my observations or conclusions at the time, but seeing the comments that have been made, I now feel that I should. So here are all of the little details I gathered from The Sheep Guy's site:

 

Dog A, a red female border collie, not registered, is available free to a good home. This dog was aquired by The Sheep Guy at age eight months, and he has had her "a few months." This dog "shows no interest in working at all." Photographs posted as being of this dog show a female dog that is very bagged up. File names for these photos all begin with rosa.

 

Dog B, a red female border collie, not registered, named Rosie, whelped a litter of puppies on or before 12/9/09. These puppies are all female, a couple red, mostly black. In the blog post dated 12/9/09, the webmaster states that they now have two litters of puppies on the ground, the first being a registered litter. In the sale listing on the site for this litter of puppies, the dam is described as working full time on the ranch. This listing also describes this litter as being a second litter of puppies, which I initially did read as saying that this was the second litter out of this dam, but after reading the blog post believe is simply referring the the fact that this is the second litter of pups that the owners have on the ground currently.

 

Now, considering all of this information together, I used Occam's Razor (the simplest explaination is the most likely) to draw a conclusion. I don't feel the need to share that conclusion, but given the brouhaha, felt that I should put all of this information in one place.

[Journey]

Julie P - I think I took issue with EK posts when she said it was "his responsibility" to contact her. He stated quite clearly to "contact him" for info. 3 pages later she gets the point and emails him?? No one know the entire story w/o asking him. It's quite clear, as Toney pointed out, he doesn't "haunt" the boards. If someone is interested in the dog one would think they would take the initiative to contact the poster, no? For all we know the dog is placed and he need not bother posting about her or answering questions.

 

Meagan - the post that you refer to as "deleted" was in reference to "Big Hats" that sell to and breed to AKC dogs - tremendous difference dontcha think....

 

I wish it would warm up so I can play outside and not on the PC...some of these threads are reminding me of BC-L