mum24dog Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 It is a huge mistake to rely on trainers, massage therapists, and chiropractors for veterinary diagnoses. Neither our club instructors nor I (as club secretary) would dream of doing so. We often spot suspect action that the owner is not aware of, or the owners discuss problems with us. Whilst we will tell them what we think it might be with the benefit of our experience, we always tell them to go to their vet for investigation. If the vet is stymied, we might tell the owner to ask for tests for what we think it might be or tell them to ask for a referral to a suitable specialist, but telling them everything is OK and encouraging them to continue to work their dog is never an option. The dog's wellbeing is paramount - the owner's wishes and ambitions are not. Luckily our members are sensible. We've had several members who we've persuaded to go to their vet who've subsequently contacted us to tell us of a diagnosis that means no more agility. I'm not suggesting that I believe this to be the situation in the case under discussion - I have no idea - but I agree with you, tight muscles don't generally just happen. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I think that it's perfectly appropriate (and desirable) for a trainer to tell an owner that she/he suspects a problem and that the dog should see a vet or that the owner should seek a second opinion or referrel. I wish that more trainers would do this. I honestly don't know if trainers just don't see the problem or if they see a problem and are afraid of losing the student. It is not, however, appropriate to diagnose a dog with a "soft tissue injury" and attempt to massage and chiropract a chronic problem away without having a good sports med vet involved. I'd never advocate that someone do chiropractic adjustments without a real diagnosis (This seems to be a common occurrance in my little corner of the world). And it's certainly not appropriate for a trainer to plop her butt in a chair and ask a bilaterally LAME, extremely overweight dog that is consistantly refusing/ running out of jumps to repeat the exercise over and over and over and over again. (Yes, I witnessed this and almost vomited all over the agility field). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner22 Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I'm not really sure I understand where this post's direction is going. I witnessed both injuries- he had one at almost 3 yrs old he ran for almost a year on it before i really understood what happened, and then about 9 months ago. Both times, he's pretty much done a full recovery. Do you guys read my posts? After being injured 9 months ago from a different fall, he was again adjusted and massaged, and has had ONE, did I mention ONE day of agility where I pulled him for being tight. Where is everyone getting this is a huge issue/chronic problem? I have repeatedly posted I think its a training issue, and I have repeatedly posted people who know him best do not see any issues with him playing agility. As in he is PHYSICALLY SOUND. I ONLY posted about the injury because I think it DID factor!!!!! Why SHOULD i take a "sound" dog to a vet to be xrayed? Because people who dont know him or his situation advised me to? I really appreciate the concern, but I think alot of it comes from people not reading my posts. Please read the posts, answer the questions, and keep medical dignosis to those who know him. If AN ORHTOTIC AGILITY VET checked him out and didn't see the need for an X-ray (which I posted) why would I question him? As for him being tight sometimes- yes, I think old muscle injurys CAN sometimes leave lasting effects, as I've pulled my back before, and usually, once you do this once, its EASIER to do again. As for him being tight in his back after excersize, is anyone aware that phycial exersion/play can make muscles tight? thus why football players do things like stretches, warm up and cool down. Also, when phycially exerting onself, a SOUND dog can have tightness. You know, like dogs that have never had a back injury, can be tight after physical exertion. Thus why we check our dogs, warm up, cool down, why we regularly monitor. also why we regularly massage/chiro. I DO all this with my physically sound dog, and my puppy too. Almost everyone I personally know thru agility does this, and their physically sound dogs can have tight spots regularly. Its called normal. I am sure I sound frustrated, but its mostly because I do not think people are reading my posts and still giving an opinion. I tried to provide as much info as I could so people could advise/training tips on things that would benefit me/actually apply. I really appreciate the posts that did so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Notwithstanding any physical issues, if your dog is dropping bars due to the handler's motion, then the dog needs more work on jumping. You need to do jump chutes, and you need to have him learn to jump irrespective of what you are doing. Eventually, after a long while, you will need to get him to learn to be ready to get direction in the air, for the next direction he will be headed, but right now, he needs to walk before he can run, if you know what I mean. Jump chutes work wonders with many chronic bar droppers. Once he is reliably keeping those bars up, then you introduce the handler, but with OUT hard direction changes. You need to go slow, and re-teach him to jump clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I have repeatedly posted I think its a training issue, and I have repeatedly posted people who know him best do not see any issues with him playing agility. As in he is PHYSICALLY SOUND. I ONLY posted about the injury because I think it DID factor!!!!! Well, I made my suggestion earlier. Assuming that the dog is sound, I recommend Susan Salo's jump program, particularly the set point exercise. And it is ridiculously simple to do and only takes minutes. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but personally I wouldn't start making adjustments to handling without working the set points for a couple of weeks. I've seen those set point exercises work wonders and it makes a lot of sense. If the dog gains a better understanding of the basic mechanics of jumping, jumping is going to improve. Of course, if that didn't do the trick, I would then start looking at adjustments to handling, cueing, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Its possible if he was jumping when he was sore then he sees jumping as something that could hurt him and so isnt commiting 100%? Personaly if a dog is dropping bars I would drop the bars and then bring them up slowly, randomise them up and down so he has to look out for the bar and not just jump the usual height - if the ground is a little lumpy and the dog is just clearing jumps without really looking at them then a slightly heigher pole will drop also muddle up the spacings TBH for jumping we just go running in the woods - then they pay attention and learn to look at what they are doing Also, I know winning is nice but for me running connected to my dog and having great fun is a winner to me. If you catch each others eyes and both of you grin then that is a winning round If you are stressing about winning, poles down or whatever then its no fun for you and no fun for your dog I run for fun, I have seen so many dogs who are 'corrected' and yelled at on course or training and these dogs go wrong. Me and Ben have fun, no stress, he is not the best dog in the world (well I think he is) and I am deff not the best handler in the world - but we have been compeating for one year and there has only been one show that we havent had a win at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner22 Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Notwithstanding any physical issues, if your dog is dropping bars due to the handler's motion, then the dog needs more work on jumping. You need to do jump chutes, and you need to have him learn to jump irrespective of what you are doing. Eventually, after a long while, you will need to get him to learn to be ready to get direction in the air, for the next direction he will be headed, but right now, he needs to walk before he can run, if you know what I mean. Jump chutes work wonders with many chronic bar droppers. Once he is reliably keeping those bars up, then you introduce the handler, but with OUT hard direction changes. You need to go slow, and re-teach him to jump clean. Oh, tell me more, I don't know what a jump chute is!? where could i find some good info on this? thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner22 Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Well, I made my suggestion earlier. Assuming that the dog is sound, I recommend Susan Salo's jump program, particularly the set point exercise. And it is ridiculously simple to do and only takes minutes.. Yes, I thank you very much. I am currently waiting to get mine! I start them next week monday/tuesday. My trainer recognized her, and thought it WOULD help him out, she was also planning on doing a seminar over the winter :D LOVE HER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner22 Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Its possible if he was jumping when he was sore then he sees jumping as something that could hurt him and so isnt commiting 100%? Personaly if a dog is dropping bars I would drop the bars and then bring them up slowly, randomise them up and down so he has to look out for the bar and not just jump the usual height - if the ground is a little lumpy and the dog is just clearing jumps without really looking at them then a slightly heigher pole will drop also muddle up the spacings TBH for jumping we just go running in the woods - then they pay attention and learn to look at what they are doing Also, I know winning is nice but for me running connected to my dog and having great fun is a winner to me. If you catch each others eyes and both of you grin then that is a winning round If you are stressing about winning, poles down or whatever then its no fun for you and no fun for your dog I run for fun, I have seen so many dogs who are 'corrected' and yelled at on course or training and these dogs go wrong. Me and Ben have fun, no stress, he is not the best dog in the world (well I think he is) and I am deff not the best handler in the world - but we have been compeating for one year and there has only been one show that we havent had a win at Ha! No! Conner is not concerned about the bar causing pain! He is an all go border collie! What pain?! We did try randomizing, and I have not seen alot of benefit (for us) from it. I have heard it helps alot of dogs tho! Winning isn't what does it for me, I just want to pass SOMETIMES! I tried the correction route, and you're right, its no fun, so I don't do it at all anymore. Conner WILL stress if scolded, so I don't do that either. We just LOVE having fun/playing together. But considering its just that one bar I figured I just need to tweak something so we can move forward as a team! Thanx abunch for your suggestions tho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Just an FYI I too have a balls to the wall, damn the torpedo's full speed ahead type border collie. These type dogs will work through pain, with little hesitation hence the concern. I am kind of puzzled that while training with "world class" instructors you are not familiar with perhaps one of the most basic training aids for jumping here in the US in the form of the jump chute, are you perhaps based in the UK? Have you considered dropping this dog down to veterans or performance level which allows you to jump a height lower than in championship...again this is in the US only to avoid further back problems. As for training I would step back from trialing and start at the beginning again teaching him where his take off point is, how to get round, how to collect coming into a jump or a turn to a jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I am kind of puzzled that while training with "world class" instructors you are not familiar with perhaps one of the most basic training aids for jumping here in the US in the form of the jump chute, are you perhaps based in the UK? No - he isn't in the UK. I am and I know what a jump chute is, although some here would call it a jumping lane if anything at all. As you say, it's basic jumping training - maybe so basic that his instructor just dopesn't call it anything since the arrangement of jumps can vary so much. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Just an FYI I too have a balls to the wall, damn the torpedo's full speed ahead type border collie. These type dogs will work through pain, with little hesitation hence the concern. Many years ago a farmer I knew was bringinig in his cattle and one raunchy cow stepped on his dog. The dog let out a yelp but got up and kept right on working. When they got back to the farm about an hour later and the cattle were penned, he discovered the dog had a broken leg. The desire to work will certainly get a dog to work while being in discomfort and pain - with the adrenaline rush, the pain etc isn't as obvious to you or the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Many years ago a farmer I knew was bringinig in his cattle and one raunchy cow stepped on his dog. The dog let out a yelp but got up and kept right on working. When they got back to the farm about an hour later and the cattle were penned, he discovered the dog had a broken leg. The desire to work will certainly get a dog to work while being in discomfort and pain - with the adrenaline rush, the pain etc isn't as obvious to you or the dog. I also had a BC break a leg and keep on running like nothing happened. However the OP isn't interested in hearing how something physical might be the "hitch in her dog's giddyup." He is an all go border collie! What pain?! Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner22 Posted December 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Just an FYI I too have a balls to the wall, damn the torpedo's full speed ahead type border collie. These type dogs will work through pain, with little hesitation hence the concern. I am kind of puzzled that while training with "world class" instructors you are not familiar with perhaps one of the most basic training aids for jumping here in the US in the form of the jump chute, are you perhaps based in the UK? I did ask my trainer, she did know what it is. I didnt have much time to talk with her after class tho.... I think she called it something different than a "chute". and I am NOT a "he" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conner22 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 So I've started the susan salo program! (and some linda mecklinberg for variety)... We are not competing for 3 months while "retraining" jumping. Its going very well. At first- I'll admit- I wasnt sure how it'd go- as the first several grids she had set he was jumping PERFECT! Perfect up arch, perfect down. I was changing heights, widths (of the fake double), and he was good! He DID knick a 8 " bar (one of the set points) when doing the left to right offset jumps grid... ? Then i set the grid that plays with compressing/extending the stride- and HO BOY! that is I think his "problem". I had a jump a mere 11 feet from the other 3 set points, and he took THREE strides! With only a little tweaking he caught on very quick he only needed ONE stride! He's very good at lead changes (no suprise with that tho- he was raised the mecklinberg method mostly). But I think for him, figuring out his strides in between the jumps is BIG- because as he is an efficient jumper- he would drop WEIRD bars sometimes (like jumps in a straight line, he'd knick a bar), and this would definitely be a result of not using the proper stride before take off. I did not get a chance to try the person's suggestion of progessing length of jumps (15' 16' 17' ...etc) I think i will try this after i am happy with his progression in judging stride compression/extention. I did do the Salo grid of 5' 6' 7' 8'- and he did that very well, but this I didnt care for, as I'd NEVER see this on a course, and for a dog his size, each one didn't require much change of stride for takeoff. So I couldnt really figure why he'd need to know it, or what it was trying to teach the dog. This is going to be great! Thanks so much for the suggestions! Ha- and inadvertently, we are also training a good start line stay training-first jump bar stay up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Ha- and inadvertently, we are also training a good start line stay training-first jump bar stay up. LOL!! The set point exercise has done a lot for Maddie's start line stay, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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