Jumping issues

[Conner22]

Hi,

I've been competing in agility for about 3 years now (in jan). I train under an awesome trainer who's gone to worlds and won nationals, or placed extremely high at nationals (USDAA and AKC). She uses alot of Linda Mecklinberg methods.

 

Conner and I competed VERY successfully for about 6-7 months, before he got the back injury. He had a great pass rate, and was doing excellent. We passed a run at EVERY trial, and looked great even when not passing. Then he fell, and threw out his back BAD. I did not realize this at the time until his first massage session about 6 months later. His back was extremely tight- one solid knot. During this time, Conner was still competing, and was dropping bars/missing weaves alot. I took a short leave of agility while in "rehab" to get his back better. During this past year of competition, we've got him to the point where he gets his weave entry every time, but I cannot get him to keep bars up.

His bar problem is this: he is a very efficient jumper/wonderfully tight turns, but the slightest handler movement drops a bar. Sometimes, there IS no reason for a dropped bar, except he's not collecting, or scrambling to go. So imagine a handler (my trainer has run him many times) who can train a dog to reach world team, and compete successfully at high ends, but my dog will still drop bars for her- So no suprise, when I run him, its the same deal. I cannot vary or move slightly wrong because DOWN with a bar.

 

I have tried marking it with a "lie down" while I place the bar up. No effect.

I've tried single jump work. Including sitting RIGHT in front of jump almost touching bar, and he has to jump and keep bar up. He does fine with this- extremely well.

I've tried challenging jump work with getting cookies for keeping bar up. He does this well.

I've tried "quitting" after he drops a bar- but a correction like this stresses him, and he starts running poorly.

He has great rear end awareness- and we regularly do tricks involving rear end.

One of the biggest problems I have is recognizing which jump to watch out for on the course. He knocks random bars- sometimes on difficult parts, sometimes on EASY parts. I can always tell watching the video afterwards what I did WRONG, but almost impossible before the run to tell that spot was going to be the problem.

 

I'll admit it, I'm kinda getting to my "wits end" about it. I LOVE running with him in agility, and I Love this dog, but I am beginning to not see a point of competing for years without passing. Especially since we are NOT moving forward, we are NOT improving with the jumping issue. Although I AM improving as a handler, so that is A Very Good reason. But I just get stumped with him, because he is fantastic, but WE (as a team) aren't moving forward.

 

Shaneen

[Root Beer]

If you can get ahold of it, I highly, highly, highly recommend the Susan Salo Foundation Jumping program (it's a DVD). Her idea of teaching jumping to a dog is a little different from any that I've heard. Her program seeks to teach the dog the mechanics of jumping, independent of the handler.

 

A friend of mine had a dog that dropped bars and she did the very first exercise in the Susan Salo program and he hasn't dropped bars since. I saw a big difference with my own dog when we did that exercise, as well.

[MaryP]

If you can get ahold of it, I highly, highly, highly recommend the Susan Salo Foundation Jumping program (it's a DVD). Her idea of teaching jumping to a dog is a little different from any that I've heard. Her program seeks to teach the dog the mechanics of jumping, independent of the handler.

 

A friend of mine had a dog that dropped bars and she did the very first exercise in the Susan Salo program and he hasn't dropped bars since. I saw a big difference with my own dog when we did that exercise, as well.

 

 

Kristine beat me to it.

 

I'm doing a Sunsan Salo workshop (not taught by her, but by one of her long-time students) right now. The program has nothing to do with handling technique; it is all about teaching your dog how to jump correctly (by compressing and using their rear, getting their stride correct, judging distance correctly, etc.). It's based on techniques used in the equestrian world for years. It's an excellent program.

 

I decided to do the workshop because I have a dog that drops bars. He's a flat jumper and also a sometimes lazy jumper. He, like your dog, will drop a bar with a very slight handler movement (I need to learn to be more smooth with my handling, too).

 

Also, just as a personal opinion, I don't buy into the idea of correcting your dog for dropping a bar. I have had plenty of people tell me that I should correct my dog for dropping bars. Nope, I disagree. I don't think it will get you the desired effect (not dropping bars), can only help to confuse and discourage your dog, and may just shut them down. If your dog is dropping bars, there is a reason for it. Find that reason and fix that problem. Don't correct the dog. On the other hand, I think that rewarding the dog for keeping bars up IS effective and I will do this. In fact, before any run at a trial, we will go over the practice jump several times and I will treat my dog (VERY food motivated) for every bar he keeps up. I will not punish him for knocking a bar, but I also don't give him the treat until he keeps the bar up. This has been very effective for me.

 

But, I do think the key for my dog will be in teaching him how to jump correctly and I have high hopes for the Susan Salo program that we are in now. I've already seen some improvement with him.

 

ETA: Just a little more on correcting a dog in agility. I really don't see the point of ever correcting a dog for doing something incorrectly in agility. Of course, if your dog is being obnoxious for some reason, I think it's OK to correct them for that. But, I don't EVER see the point of correcting a dog for not performing something "correctly." If they aren't performing something correctly, then it's because they aren't understanding what you are asking of them, IMO. Plus, agility is a game. Games should be fun. I really can't stand the people (few, but they are there) at trials or even in classes that yell at their dogs or get angry at their dog's performance or pick them up and carry them out of the ring for missing a contact, etc. I feel sorry for folks who take it so seriously as to loose site of the fact that it is suposed to be something fun for the dog and the handler. I'm not suggesting the OP is doing this at all. It's just my little pet peeve that I had to rant about, LOL!

[Northof49]

What was the injury diagnosis, the rehab and how long was your "short break" from agility. Did the rehab include gradually getting him back into agility or did you just go straight back into it? Was he dropping bars before his injury?

 

For example, part of Chynna's rehab was doing agility equipment again. She was allowed to do 4 jumps in a straight line low hieght and gradually bring the height back. Then I was allowed to slightly curve them, etc etc. THe last thing she was allowed to do was weave poles and contacts - this was over a 2 month period, and then she was ready to go back and trial. From the time she injured herself to when she could start back on agility equipment was 5 months for a pulled groin ligament. I decided to play it safe and left her off for one extra month to make sure everything was healed and worked on rehap exercises etc just to be sure.

 

 

Personally I would suspect that he has not recovered from his injury. There could be some residual there that needs to be taken care of.

As well, if he had to modify his jumping style to accomodate his injury, he could still be jumping in that same style. If he is having trouble physically jumping, with a back injury, in order to get over the jump, they usually end up dropping their back end as they can't get the proper lift.

[Conner22]

What was the injury diagnosis, the rehab and how long was your "short break" from agility. Did the rehab include gradually getting him back into agility or did you just go straight back into it? Was he dropping bars before his injury?

 

Personally I would suspect that he has not recovered from his injury. There could be some residual there that needs to be taken care of.

 

As well, if he had to modify his jumping style to accomodate his injury, he could still be jumping in that same style. If he is having trouble physically jumping, with a back injury, in order to get over the jump, they usually end up dropping their back end as they can't get the proper lift.

 

Well, we took about 5-6 months off, 3 or 4 were spent doing massage/chiro. massage was every two weeks. he has consistently gotten the ok from his massage therapist, his back is no longer tight, i also took several classes in massage so i could upkeep/monitor from home. I've become extremely good at evaluating his back/tightness. we did alot of single jump work on the way back in. however... this was muscle/soft tissue tightness, not a tendon injury which i would also be super paranoid about. we do stretches as well. I do not believe the injury to factor at the moment, but for the time he had the injury and was running, he did learn bad habits.

 

oh, and his correction was "down". as in, we aren't going on for a moment, because i want you to notice that bar- mostly because it never affected him that he DID crash bars. he would just plow them. as i said, i dont bother doing this anymore, it discouraged him, but one of conners biggest issues is he didn't like to collect, he just wanted to RUN .... lol.

[Conner22]

ETA: Just a little more on correcting a dog in agility. I really don't see the point of ever correcting a dog for doing something incorrectly in agility. Of course, if your dog is being obnoxious for some reason, I think it's OK to correct them for that. But, I don't EVER see the point of correcting a dog for not performing something "correctly." If they aren't performing something correctly, then it's because they aren't understanding what you are asking of them, IMO. Plus, agility is a game. Games should be fun. I really can't stand the people (few, but they are there) at trials or even in classes that yell at their dogs or get angry at their dog's performance or pick them up and carry them out of the ring for missing a contact, etc. I feel sorry for folks who take it so seriously as to loose site of the fact that it is suposed to be something fun for the dog and the handler. I'm not suggesting the OP is doing this at all. It's just my little pet peeve that I had to rant about, LOL!

 

Many people feel this way, i'll admit it, i didnt do it for long, didnt accomlish much but a sad dog, and a wasted run. However, depends on the dog, i've watched people not take dogs off when they should have! and felt the same frustration i'm sure you felt watching a minor error end a run.

BUT, i know a couple of people who take dogs off for errors, and understand their reasons, and also, it works with THEIR dog! And mostly, these are high end dogs that KNOW what they are supposed to do, but decided to do it different....i cant imagine the handler's doing anything else BUT taking their dogs off, as consistency is the best teacher, and if one run a dog can do this, and the next run do something different, but still go on, that is just bad training.

[Root Beer]

oh, and his correction was "down". as in, we aren't going on for a moment, because i want you to notice that bar- mostly because it never affected him that he DID crash bars. he would just plow them. as i said, i dont bother doing this anymore, it discouraged him, but one of conners biggest issues is he didn't like to collect, he just wanted to RUN .... lol.

 

I know some people who do this and it makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't see how "down" is supposed to communicate to the dog, "you aren't supposed to drop the bar."

 

That's not what it means when the dog is told to "down" on the table. That's not what it means when you are working on "down" for manners or obedience. That's not what it means if you ask your dog to "down" to relax on the sidelines.

 

In fact, I'd say a well trained dog should be able to be cued to "down" at any time and all it means is, "I want you to lie down right now".

 

Granted, I don't use corrections at all in training, but if I theoretically wanted to for some reason, I wouldn't use a down any more than I would cue the dog to stand tall on his hind legs for a few seconds to try to tell the dog that dropping a bar is "wrong". That just doesn't make any sense.

 

To teach him to collect, I can't recommend the Susan Salo program highly enough!!

[SS Cressa]

I always view a "down" for being wild and knocking bars as a correction. My tone is different then when I am saying down on tables or on the start line. Also if Cressa (althought she doesn't have a issue with knocking bars) was in the middle of "playing" agility a sudden stop in action such as a down IS a correction. It also help keep your dog under control. I sure you could uuse a sit or whatever command you wanted but a down is a border collie default.

 

Cressa had a period where she messed her weaves up. She would skip the last pole to get to the next obstacle. I would stop and try to call her to heel. Instead of waiting for me she would just try to drive into the wrong end of the weaves or fix them herself. A down would refocus her into being a TEAM player and not an crazy border collie. It would also get the message your wrong and need to listen. That just my thought line tho and I have no problem with pulling a dog from the course if we aren't connecting. Or if said dog decide she doesn't want to listen. Or if I am getting too frustrated. It doesn't happen a lot. I do know my border collie understand the correction. And in the next run she will do fine. LOL I never understand the people who let their dogs get away with murder on the course and then wonder why their dog isn't passing. They alway seem to say "insert dog name" does it in class great but once s/he in the ring..."

 

ETA: Cressa was pushing her start stay and was starting to release herself. I was for the most part marking it but I never really corrected it. Well at one trial Cressa released herself and I marked it. Well the timer didn't go off so before we were over the third jump they stopped me. I made Cressa come into heel back to the start line. The look on her face was "oh shoot! oh shoot!" Then when I put her back on the line the look of relief on her face. To put it mildly she hasn't release herself from the line since. And it been over a year.

[Conner22]

To teach him to collect, I can't recommend the Susan Salo program highly enough!!

 

I will be picking up the dvd tomorrow, i cant wait to try it.

On a side note, i did the "down" because if he dropped a bar in class, i would down him and pick up the bar and replace it before we got to go on. I was trying for some consistency, and to relate that when running in competition. The thought process went as such: if the reward for my bc is going on (continuing to play agility) then stopping when an error is made is NOT rewarding bar dropping.

plus, focusing on correction when you are trying to have fun- is not fun at all.... so that was just a past method, wanted to let you guys know what i'd tried, so to get tips I havent tried.

But of course, it didnt work.... but that was the thought process. and - lol- considering for most of his life "down" means to anticipate having fun, it probably isnt any correction at all. I down before we play, down before frisbee/ball time, and down before we GO in agility, etc... I betcha "down" to my Conner means, "READY to play?????"

[Northof49]

Have you video taped your dog doing different kinds of jump exercises and then watched it in slow motion and one screen at a time? Do you have footage of him pre injury, during his injury and post injury to see if you can see any differences in his body?.

 

What is his ratio of knocking bars at practice vs competition?

 

You mentioned that he is very efficient over the bars, which I take to mean he just jumps as high as he needs to to clear the bar? IF that is the case, the wrong split second of cuing the dog (particularly a young inexperienced one) is going to get the bar knocked, where another dog that has a bit of air zand between them and the bar and has some mileage under their paws, won't take the bar down. With inexperienced dogs as well, they have a tendency to focus on the cue words and sort of forget about focusing on their jumping as well, they have to learn to listen for the cue and focue on their jumping and that takes time. Also, with young dogs that are keen if you are ahead of them and speed up, they have a tendency to try and catch up and are focused on that and not so much on jumping the jump, and again that is something they have to learn.

 

Since I don't know you and your dog and have never seen you two in action, I am just guessing, and just trying to throw some food for thought out there.

[jenkshipley]

I'll admit it, I'm kinda getting to my "wits end" about it. I LOVE running with him in agility, and I Love this dog, but I am beginning to not see a point of competing for years without passing. Especially since we are NOT moving forward, we are NOT improving with the jumping issue. Although I AM improving as a handler, so that is A Very Good reason. But I just get stumped with him, because he is fantastic, but WE (as a team) aren't moving forward.

 

If you dog didn't used to knock bars, had an injury and now knocks bars, I would be suspicious that the injury is either not fully healed or has caused a weakness. I would be having my dog double and triple checked for injury. Border Collies are not "normal" when it comes to injuries. They often show far less signs then other dog breeds, the drive superceeds the discomfort. After he was double and triple checked, I would work on conditioning away from the equipment. Swimming, off lead hiking, hill work, etc.. Once I did that, I would be through a jump program, Susan Salo's possibly without trialing my dog for several months to rework the jumping skills. Don't trial while you are working it.

 

Best,

 

Jen

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

[diane allen]

Jen beat me to that one! I would certainly suspect some either continued problem from the injury, or perhaps the injury caused something to change that the dog can't accommodate. If you have such a hot instructor (insert jealous face here!), I doubt that anything we can say long-distance on these boards is going to help.....but I do wish you luck (and hope a retraining program works, if the injury isn't causing this). I know what you mean about "I just want to run!" - got a couple of those myself!

 

diane

[Conner22]

Sorry about such a late reply, I hadn't noticed people's new replies!

A couple of things:

Conner didn't used to knock bars, but he's also alot faster now. He's definitely alot faster since when he first started.

By efficient jumper, yes, i mean he jumps (always has) very tights/smooth- and very little clearance over the bar. Yes our bars come down over the slightest movement (on my part) or a verbal over the bar. Of course when I'm choppy, bars come down.

He averages 1-2 bars per run. Usually just one. This may sound silly to complain about as its just one, but honestly, we haven't passed a single run for 6 months, and that was just ONE pass. We are averaging about ONE pass per 6 months, average competing once to twice a month for 2 days/4 runs. So about 2x out of a year of competition, we pass.

So average of 1 Q/24 runs

His back has been rated "clear" for some time now. of course I monitor alot to ensure it remains thus. and we still see massage pretty regularly. We do warm up/cool down, stretches etc. If his back is tight (say I went on a long hike and his muscles are "tighter") I will see quite a few bars down in agility. Any more than 4 dropped, and we stop running just in case its his back and then have him checked out.

For a bit, he was also missing weave entry. We did the 2 weave method and he's rock solid again. Best we could tell, he "unlearned" weave entry when his back WAS tight and I didn't realize it but was still running him.

[diane allen]

Just revisiting this, and had another thought. This is what our deal was - maybe it applies to you and yours, and maybe not!

 

We do NADAC and USDAA agility. I often have my runs videotaped, so I can learn from MY mistakes, and occasionally catch my youngster making one on his own. I noticed a VERY odd jumping pattern - and on advice from my very-learned-instructor did the following, which was VERY enlightening.

 

Set up at least six jumps spaced at 18', 19', 20' and 21'. One often sees the 18' spacing in USDAA (and occasionally even closer with weird angles), and often as much as 21' in NADAC.

 

At all these spacings, he takes two strides between jumps.

 

At 18 & 19', my boy was superb - half the arc was the up-side, half was the down-side. Perfect!

At 20' and particularly at 21' - he would jump half/half for the first two or three; then because of his stride, he started getting farther and farther behind. By the end of the sequence, about 2/3 of the arc would be the up-side, and only 1/3 would be the down. That's what I had seen in trials on tape, and was so worried that he simply didn't know how to gauge the spacing. He was NOT knocking bars, but it seemed inevitable, especially in USDAA which tends to have more varying spacing, that it was going to start happening.

 

If we continued the jump sequence with more jumps, eventually he would figure out the spacing, and add the necessary stride before a jump.

 

He now rarely knocks bars in USDAA; however, at NADAC Champs this year, he knocked one single bar in every regular course, and every jumpers course! Of course, adrenalin might have been a bit higher there; and I know at least a few of those were my fault of course.

 

Just some food for thought....videotaping is well worth the hassle of getting someone to do it, and watching it carefully - esp. if you can view in slow-motion!

 

diane

[Northof49]

Okay, I am just going to yap here - just putting some stuff out for consideration.

 

First of all, If my dog's back was tight, I would not be running him in agility on that day or that round. If his back mucles are all tightened up he is not physically sound to jump - that is what I would be deciding for my dog. If you can't work that out before you go into the ring, consider pulling him from that round.

 

Secondly, if he is getting faster, and he has a flatter jumping style, by that I mean barely clearing the jumps, and he is inexperienced - the amount you say you are trialling him - a couple of times a month - 4 runs in a weekend, really isn't giving him a lot of trial experience, and we all know that high drive dogs are always higher in a trial situation that training - you're timing has to be sharper, the dog has to learn that jumping the jumps is important not just going as fast as you can around a course. You two are not really getting much trial time to work on things and learn to be a team. Also it takes time to be a team - depends on the dog, handler and how experienced the handler is. I found that my teamwork with each subsquent dog I trained came faster. Normally though it takes a couple of years to really become a good team and lots of people cue very little during that time, and that's okay. I deliberately fail my dogs in Starters by touching them, as there are certain things I want to make sure I have solid before I go on to the next level -= focus, start lines, contacts, weave entries. Then when I go into the next level all I have to do is concentrate on the handling. I am not interested in getting into Masters or ATCHing out my dog as fast as possible.

 

My friend's dog is very fast and a very "efficient" jumper. They did all sorts of grid jumping etc. with her when they first trained her and did a good job. They pulled her for an entire year from trialling. The one thing that they noticed is that in trials she never took the double or the ascending spread - so we started working her with barrels over all of the jumps - so basically each jump was a spread. The one thing with her is that she is what I would call a front wheel drive dog, but in order to get width along with height she had to drive from her rear, which she did while she was jumping the double and spread, so working her with the barrels under the jumps consistently keeps her in rear wheel drive. Even all the bounce jump work didn't help.

 

The other thing - do you have a verbal command to slow the dog down and collect? My one young dog a few years ago, when he got going and only wanted to do the course as fast as he could, would back off his speed when I told him "gentle" which I used on his stock. He would back off his speed. Once he got a bit more experience under his belt in agility, he was able to control himself and it isn't very often that I ever had to tell him to gentle on an agiity course.

 

These things take time.

[Conner22]

Okay, I am just going to yap here - just putting some stuff out for consideration.

 

First of all, If my dog's back was tight, I would not be running him in agility on that day or that round. If his back mucles are all tightened up he is not physically sound to jump - that is what I would be deciding for my dog. If you can't work that out before you go into the ring, consider pulling him from that round.

 

The other thing - do you have a verbal command to slow the dog down and collect? My one young dog a few years ago, when he got going and only wanted to do the course as fast as he could, would back off his speed when I told him "gentle" which I used on his stock. He would back off his speed. Once he got a bit more experience under his belt in agility, he was able to control himself and it isn't very often that I ever had to tell him to gentle on an agiity course.

 

These things take time.

 

Thanx for your post! Its very very informative. I do have some questions but first I'll post this.

His back thing- its sometimes hard for me to tell if his back is "tighter than normal" and he'll dropped bars. i am usually very in tune to it, but there is always that "fine" line when he's just a teeeny bit tighter. But for him, makes a huge difference in his run.

When i first started Conner into "rehab" his back was a total knot (spasm) which I think the massage therapist said was "very very bad" but not the WORST she's seen but up there. he'd had a bad fall, he couldn't get up for 10 minutes or so (I was totally freaked out- I was also a new dog owner at the time). His spine was "out" chiropractically speaking, and his back was completely spasming to try to put it back to right. It was like this for probably a year (I had never heard of dog chiropractor or massage at the time). he's now totally NOT anywere near that, his back is the typcial back of any other dog (if you were massaging him he'd have some tightness here or there, but nothing concerning.

Well, when I'm doing a one-over outside the ring, I usally can tell when his back is a little tighter. I usually spend at least 15-20 min warmup, and if he's a little tighter, that will have worked this out. When we actually run, he usually does fine(with the exception of that one bar). But sometimes the warmup doesnt loosen him (rare occasions- and we'll have 4 + bars dropped) so we quit early, and don't run. And then see the nice massage lady. This just happened recently (and yes I kicked myself in the butt) because he felt "off" for me, and I wasn't liking how he was moving, but I thought I'd give it a try. And it was a nice disaster. I usually see odd behaviors in the ring on these occasions, things he just NEVER does. Like last weekend, when he did 3 laps with a tunnel instead of running with me- HE NEVER does/did that, not even as a beginner.

I do and Don't have a "slow" down word. his word is Easy. But he views it as a temporary command. How would I train him a command that mean just "calm down" or "back off" like you did?

Also, I don't quite understand what you did with the jump work? You did "barrels"? what is a barrel? Like a big bucket type thing that horses run around in barrel racing?

We do rear work with conner- is that what you meant by pushing off with his rear? he does the long jump/double/triple just fine (odd, he RARELY knocks these!) usually knocks a single. Haha- keep posting, I love learning!

[Conner22]

Set up at least six jumps spaced at 18', 19', 20' and 21'. One often sees the 18' spacing in USDAA (and occasionally even closer with weird angles), and often as much as 21' in NADAC.

 

At all these spacings, he takes two strides between jumps.

 

If we continued the jump sequence with more jumps, eventually he would figure out the spacing, and add the necessary stride before a jump.

diane

 

BIG THANX! I like it. I'm gonna try it. I've had to wait thus far for the tapes by susan on her grid work, so would LOVE giving this a try. This is DEFINITELY one of the problems Conner's had- collecting! I used to not be able to lead out more than one jump (although it was THOROUGHLY taught to him) because he'd lean forward to much and LAUNCH AT the first jump crashing it big time. I did learn to teach him stay meant SIT very upright when I leave you- DON'T budge your front feet/lean in, and no longer have this problem.

But he used to not collect before the weaves.

And often, if a cue is a little off, he doesn't take time to collect and alter, he just ALTERS, and knocks the bar simply by not having a proper take off/ lead.

Yes, sometimes (often) its me and my timing (although he's taught me AWESOME timing), but sometimes its just Conner not collecting and wanting to go go go. Did I ever mention he barks the WHOLE course in high pitched girly excited bark?

I love running other people's dogs, as I mentioned, he's taught me awesome timing, and other's people's dogs are slightly more forgiving than conner ie dont drop bars because they can and run SUPER smooth with me!

Ha! Other's sometimess use my boy to teach timing, as he does EXACTLY what you do- and if your off, he drops a bar for you. He NEVER has offcourses unless he is PUSHED offcourse. But he is an exact mirror, and very unforgiving! You learn to time your turns/signals quite properly.

[mum24dog]

Also, just as a personal opinion, I don't buy into the idea of correcting your dog for dropping a bar. I have had plenty of people tell me that I should correct my dog for dropping bars. Nope, I disagree. I don't think it will get you the desired effect (not dropping bars), can only help to confuse and discourage your dog, and may just shut them down. If your dog is dropping bars, there is a reason for it. Find that reason and fix that problem. Don't correct the dog. On the other hand, I think that rewarding the dog for keeping bars up IS effective and I will do this. In fact, before any run at a trial, we will go over the practice jump several times and I will treat my dog (VERY food motivated) for every bar he keeps up. I will not punish him for knocking a bar, but I also don't give him the treat until he keeps the bar up. This has been very effective for me.

--------

ETA: Just a little more on correcting a dog in agility. I really don't see the point of ever correcting a dog for doing something incorrectly in agility. Of course, if your dog is being obnoxious for some reason, I think it's OK to correct them for that. But, I don't EVER see the point of correcting a dog for not performing something "correctly." If they aren't performing something correctly, then it's because they aren't understanding what you are asking of them, IMO.

 

One of my bugbears. I totally agree with you.

The more people correct, the more they lose sight of the fact that they were probably responsible for the mistake in the first place.

We've never had a serious pole knocker - not even the little 12 year old competing over 30ins until shortly before her retirement a few years ago. We always said we'd retire her when she started dropping poles but her hearing went and senility started to set in before that happened. We've never done any fancy jump training so I can't comment on that. In the early days of training with each one, if a pole has been knocked or a jump run under I've just got out a my clicker and after one or two retries it's been fixed.

From what Conner22 says, I'd suspect the problem is mistimed verbal and/or physical cue (1 jump down per run isn't a major problem in my book) but if it was as simple as that I would have expected the instructor to have identified it.

I do wonder about the advisability of competing with a dog that needs so much ongoing attention to try and make sure it is fit enough to run.

 

Pam

[Northof49]

I do and Don't have a "slow" down word. his word is Easy. But he views it as a temporary command. How would I train him a command that mean just "calm down" or "back off" like you did?

Also, I don't quite understand what you did with the jump work? You did "barrels"? what is a barrel? Like a big bucket type thing that horses run around in barrel racing?

We do rear work with conner- is that what you meant by pushing off with his rear? he does the long jump/double/triple just fine (odd, he RARELY knocks these!) usually knocks a single. Haha- keep posting, I love learning!

 

Since you don't work stock, what I have taught other dogs is to walk beside me and walk very quickly. Then I slow down to a slow walk and as I transition down cue the dog on the "gentle" command and reward and say "good gentle", then as I transition back to a much faster pace I say "go". I keep working that.

 

Then I start with one jump. I start about 40 feet away walking fast. As I get within 20 feet of the jump I cue "gentle" and then told the dog to Hup. By body is a cue at this time, because I slow down. as well. I don't go with the dog to the jump If as I cue the jump the dog wants to speed up and charge the jump,I call the dog off and start all over again. Once I have that down pat I add another jump. Once dog is doing 4 jumps in a row away from me on the gentle command, I will start to curve them in so I am moving with the dog.

 

What we had was plastic barrels, the ones that people use for garbage, etc. so they are smaller than the metal barrels that they use for barrell racing and just put them on their sides under the jump. It is just under the jump bar at 22".

[Diana A]

Has a regular vet seen his back, and maybe taken x-rays? It's possible that when he injured himself there was more than just tight muscles - maybe now the tight muscles are fixed but possibly there's another underlying problem. Chiro and massage therapists wouldn't necessarily be able to detect this where a regular vet would. I would especially be concerned if he still comes up tight sometimes - why does that happen? Is it possibly because he's still compensating for something?

 

Diana

[Conner22]

From what Conner22 says, I'd suspect the problem is mistimed verbal and/or physical cue (1 jump down per run isn't a major problem in my book) but if it was as simple as that I would have expected the instructor to have identified it.

I do wonder about the advisability of competing with a dog that needs so much ongoing attention to try and make sure it is fit enough to run.

 

Pam

 

Sometimes mistimed, but sometimes not- was addressed previously. And he does bar knocking even for very smooth handlers, or world team people.

I consider the bar knocking in trials a TRAINING issue. Considering in the past 6 months, I've only had him tight (knock 4+ bars) at ONE trial, I dont really consider him too high maintenance but needs upkeep. I DO consider the physical issue to contribute to bar dropping, BECAUSE when we were competing before I had realized a problem, he UNtrained himself in a few area's to accomodate. I think he became accustomed to dropping bars- similar to his missing weave entry. Both are multi factored areas including: we're a new/young team (only 3 years competing with 6 months off), he's my first agility dog, he loves to go go go and not collect, he learned bad habits from competing with his bad back, and of course, as I learn to be a better handler, we go alot smoother with better timing.

He's my first bc, and pretty much my first dog i've ever done anything like this with, and is only my second dog (i've only owned one dog previously). I WOULD not give up on him because he "inconveniences" me with upkeep. He LOVES running agility, is fantastic dog, super smart, and I think the best dog in the world. We go thru so many firsts- Obedience, herding, tricks, fairs, anything etc. If the people who know him best advised me to quit, I would. But they don't, and again, I dont feel like going over their credentials, but trust me, they have very valued/esteemed professional opinions in the dog world.

[Conner22]

Has a regular vet seen his back, and maybe taken x-rays? It's possible that when he injured himself there was more than just tight muscles - maybe now the tight muscles are fixed but possibly there's another underlying problem. Chiro and massage therapists wouldn't necessarily be able to detect this where a regular vet would. I would especially be concerned if he still comes up tight sometimes - why does that happen? Is it possibly because he's still compensating for something?

 

Diana

 

I know it may sound funny, because with my other boy's (Aslan) physical issues I've x-rayed half of his body- the rear end, but I never did xray Conner, mostly because both the massage therapist and chiro (both who've worked on dogs for longer than i've been alive- haha) think that it IS just a soft tissue problem and the xray would pretty much just be a "waste- $100+" of money.

I notice him tightening up after he's ran alot. For example, its unadvised to run him for a 1.5 hr hike the day before a trial weekend. ALOT of physical excersize tightens him up. Give him a day, and he loosens right back up again.

How do people say it- you want good structure to minimize breakdown! Conner is "ok/good" structure, but not GREAT-do you follow? My instructor has always been impressed with how well he does with what he's got! He's super good with his body.

ADD: I should say, yes a vet did check him over (an ortho vet of good repute who does agility dogs) and did not think he needed xray either. But the answer to your question is NO i've not xrayed him.

[mum24dog]

I WOULD not give up on him because he "inconveniences" me with upkeep.

 

Who has suggested "giving up on him"?

Even if you had to give up agility you wouldn't be doing that, surely?

It's a huge mistake to believe that just because a dog enjoys agility that it couldn't live without it. More likely the owner couldn't. I've known plenty of dogs retire from top class competition and never look back as long as they have something else to do.

 

I notice him tightening up after he's ran alot. For example, its unadvised to run him for a 1.5 hr hike the day before a trial weekend. ALOT of physical excersize tightens him up.

 

If he tightens up after a lot of exercise, why do it?

BCs don't need anywhere as much physical exercise as some people imagine. Too much exercise and you get a diog that is high on adrenaline all the time and just demands more.

Mental exercise is more likely to tire him out.

 

If his back is tight (say I went on a long hike and his muscles are "tighter") I will see quite a few bars down in agility. Any more than 4 dropped, and we stop running just in case its his back and then have him checked out.

 

TBH the odd pole in a round wouldn't concern me, but this would.

 

a vet did check him over (an ortho vet of good repute who does agility dogs) and did not think he needed xray either. But the answer to your question is NO i've not xrayed him.

 

I'll give you the example of a friend's BC. He has always had something wrong that prevented him jumping properly but noone could pinpoint it. Suspected soft tissue injury - apparently not after recommended treatment and rehab including acupuncture. Dog still intermittently lame. Examination and X rays by an orthpaedic specialist - nothing found. Eventually an MRI scan identified a malformation of one of the neck vertebrae - nowhere near where the problem appeared to originate. Surgery is now being considered.

For an ongoing problem I wouldn't take "think" from anyone.

 

Pam

[Diana A]

I'll give you the example of a friend's BC. He has always had something wrong that prevented him jumping properly but noone could pinpoint it. Suspected soft tissue injury - apparently not after recommended treatment and rehab including acupuncture. Dog still intermittently lame. Examination and X rays by an orthpaedic specialist - nothing found. Eventually an MRI scan identified a malformation of one of the neck vertebrae - nowhere near where the problem appeared to originate. Surgery is now being considered.

For an ongoing problem I wouldn't take "think" from anyone.

 

A friend of mine had a similar experience with her dog. Very intermittently the dog would come up slightly lame after being in a crate for a while, usually after a day of agility or other physical work. It didn't seem like much and the dog would 'walk out of it' pretty quickly and she had a few examiners (chiro, etc) chalk it up to tight muscles, possibly a sore back, but she persisted in finding out what was going on. Chiro didn't find anything. An xray showed a problem with her back (can't remember exactly what it was) but it was a problem like a ticking time bomb, where a wrong move might have permanently paralyzed this dog. She was retired immediately. The other option was risky surgery, which the owner chose not to do. I think it's silly for a chiro or massage vet (are these people actually vets?) to say the dog is fine but he keeps having problems but you don't need an x-ray. You know something is wrong and they can't tell you what it is or fix it, but they tell you not to look at other options to find out what's going on? I'd spend the $100 just for peace of mind.

[Blackdawgs]

You say that the dog started knocking bars after an injury and he knocks bars regardless of whether you run the dog or your world class instructor runs the dog.

 

My dog was diagnosed with a "soft tissue injury" of the back (by two vets) after several months of refusing the weaves and slowing times which culminated in her running out of gas during a run at a trial. After several weeks of rest, NSAIDS, acupuncture, and massage, she continued to have problems. A rehab vet then diagnosed her with an SI injury. Following a few months of rest, therapeutic stretches, more acupuncture, and rehab, she contunued to have muscle spasms in her back and was then was diagnosed with spinal spondylosis and arthritis in one spot.

 

"Soft tissue injury" and "tight" are not diagnoses, they are SYMPTOMS some sort of underlying problem. Your dog needs to be seen by a veterinary specialist. It is a huge mistake to rely on trainers, massage therapists, and chiropractors for veterinary diagnoses. I saw this alot in the horse world and in my local agility world I see too many instructors whose students are running lame dogs or are themselves running lame dogs.

 

After discussing it with my rehab vet, who actually saw my dog run (soundly) at a trial, we still compete LIGHTLY in NADAC and CPE for fun. However, we have made the following concessions: No weaves (ever), jumps down 8" to 12 ", 2 classes a day, no running on wet grass. The moment that she shows symptoms the day after or tells me that she doesn't want to do this anymore, she is retired.

 

I think that you need to get a real diagnosis on the dog, so you can make an INFORMED decision about this dog's future as a competion dog and to develop a plan for preservation of long term soundness.