A Tri can only have tan, not copper??

[Brandi]

Oh she would flip out about a Red Tri. Im guessing she would say something to the effect of "How can it be a red tri if it doesn't have any black" yeah.... sad. The problem is that she has a lot of clients and passes this "intelligence" on to people, thus dumbing the world up

Beautiful Tris guys!!

[Lenajo]

You mean homozygous merle, not "double dilute," as there is no such thing. The only people I have seen using that term are puppy mills and BYBs.

 

and the Collie Club of America...

 

Regardless, the term does not apply to a normal merle (Mm) dog.

 

the only time I've seen a double dilute/homozygous (MM) merle Border Collies is from a mill/sport breeder.

 

We've tangled the conversation again LOL. At least the trainer that Jodi does not think should be called a moron is clued in to the available coat patterns of the breed. I shudder to think what the OP's "trainer" thinks merle is if she doesn't even believe that tri exists. Horse genes? ROFL

[Journey]

Most likely the easiest thing for the OP to do is agree with the breeder/trainer, yep, this pups a mutt, and run as fast and as far as you can from her.

[Laurelin]

Probably a really silly question but here goes...

 

What is the difference between tan and copper? Aren't they the same thing only a different name? (We don't call anything 'copper' in my breed so I've never heard it before)

[Brandi]

Probably a really silly question but here goes...

 

What is the difference between tan and copper? Aren't they the same thing only a different name? (We don't call anything 'copper' in my breed so I've never heard it before)

 

Just a different shade of brown.. that's all.

[geonni banner]

You mean homozygous merle, not "double dilute," as there is no such thing. The only people I have seen using that term are puppy mills and BYBs.

 

For something that doesn't exist, there's sure a lot of it - in several species! To wit:

 

Gene Combinations

Champagne is just another dilute gene among many like cream, dun, pearl, silver, etc. Many times champagne is inherited along with another of these dilute genes. These combinations produce double diluted horses and no two of the same gene couplings seem to the look alike. Many combinations have been documented by the ICHR such as champagne and dun.

Again though, the overall result for the horse’s color depends on the original base coat; so a grullo (black dun) champagne will look different than a red dun champagne even though both combinations of dilute genes are dun and champagne. Double dilutes including champagne can be silver, dun and pearl to name a few.

Another extremely small subset of champagne dilute combinations are triple dilutes. These horses have two genes in addition to champagne. Only 4 horses have been documented to have two cream genes with the champagne and only one with two cream genes, a champagne and a dun gene.

from “Equine Champagne Gene” www.theequinest.com/equine-champagne-gene/

* * *

re: Great Danes

2. DILUTED COLORS

MLPH (LOCUS D=dilution): produces dilution of black to slate (blue/grey/maltese).

Affects skin/eye color simultaneously. Contains 2 "functional" alleles (dominant/recessive pairing).

D = allows for black pigment to form.

d = produces blue/slate/grey dilution (there are more than one form of mutation for this recessive, but, again, the phenotype for all the recessive alleles appears the same, a dull sort of gunmetal gray called blue in the Great Dane).

NOTE: Affects skin/hair color simultaneously (nose is slate).

Present in Great Danes: D = all animals with black pigment. d = all blues/animals with blue markings/without black pigment are recessive homozygous at this locus. All <dd> have non-black (gray, slate, etc.) nose, eye rims & pads. Reduction in eye (iris) color is also noted. Dr. Sheila Schmutz isolated the gene involved (MLPH) in the blue dilution. See her website for more information: http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html

**bbdd-The Drapp-colored dane: This odd color, sometimes called "lilac" in Danes, occurs when both brown and blue recessives are simultaneously present it would seem. The color has many names: isabella, for example, and is called in Dobermans "fawn" & is the same color of all Wiemaraners. Perhaps more properly referred to as dilute chocolate, blue-liver or double dilute, this is the most likely candidate for the odd color referred to as "Drapp" in early discussions of the dane. The other likely explanation for this "drapp" ( a lilac color or cafe-au-lait brown with flesh-pink nose) is some other form of "double dilute."

excerpted from: “Standard Coat Color Genetics For Dog Breeders”

at: http://www.chromadane.com/standardcoat.htm

* * *

re: Cremelo and Perlino horses:

“Cremello and Perlino horses are known as "double dilutes", horses which received two copies of the same creme dilution gene that creates palomino and buckskin colors with a single copy. They are just like any other normal, solid colored horse.”

from: “A Good Horse Is Never a Bad Color” at: http://www.doubledilute.com/main.html

 

 

Now I'll grant you, there probably shouldn't be double-dilute merle dogs, but they DO exist!

 

I think usually the term "copper" usually refers to the brown markings on a red dog, like a red tri, and the markings on a black tri are usually refered to as "tan" - but the range of shades (as amply pictured by this thread) is so great that it would not be unreasonable to refer to the brown markings on some black tris or merles as copper. I think that that may be at the root of the misunderstanding described by the OP.

[Brandi]

I think usually the term "copper" usually refers to the brown markings on a red dog, like a red tri, and the markings on a black tri are usually refered to as "tan" - but the range of shades (as amply pictured by this thread) is so great that it would not be unreasonable to refer to the brown markings on some black tris or merles as copper. I think that that may be at the root of the misunderstanding described by the OP.

 

She has seen Wiley and tells me that he is mixed with an aussie because of his coloring, that the color on his face (the "copper") is too dark to be within the "standards" for a tri border collie. She then went on to tell me how rare the tri is in America.

OH and here is the kicker... She said she wouldn't work with him once he is old enough because she only works w/ BC's and not mixed breeds.

Needless to say I won't be using her at all for training. I just want to educate her so she doesn't sound ignorant when she talks to other people who may believe they have mixed breeds based on what she tells them. It's sad when a trainer doesn't know anything about the breed she will only work with.

[Journey]

She wouldn't by chance be from Australia? The "tri's" there are rare (due to the breeders, show dogs that is) and Red Tri is unacceptable in their show registry.

[Brandi]

She wouldn't by chance be from Australia? The "tri's" there are rare (due to the breeders, show dogs that is) and Red Tri is unacceptable in their show registry.

 

Nope Southern California

[Journey]

Nope Southern California

 

Oh, well, that explains it...

[sea4th]

is too dark to be within the "standards" for a tri border collie. She then went on to tell me how rare the tri is in America.

 

Standards, huh? Explains everything.

 

OH and here is the kicker... She said she wouldn't work with him once he is old enough because she only works w/ BC's and not mixed breeds.

Better pick up your mixed breed mutt and run, not walk, as far away from her as possible, before she screws him up.

 

Needless to say I won't be using her at all for training. I just want to educate her so she doesn't sound ignorant when she talks to other people who may believe they have mixed breeds based on what she tells them. It's sad when a trainer doesn't know anything about the breed she will only work with.

 

I'd let her sink herself, this self-proclaimed "expert". I wouldn't give her another cent of my hard earned money. Wonder if she reads these boards? Plenty before her have found their way here after they somehow heard that they were being discussed on this board.

[Lenajo]

That trainer obviously could not be a good example, so she has settled for hideous warning.

 

Don't walk away. Run.

[Debbie Meier]

I kinda wonder what the real deal is. Is it the trainer basing the opinion of "mixed breed" on the color or is she basing it on the way the dog travels and carries itself and then is using the color to support her suspisions that your dog may be a aussie cross?

 

Deb

[geonni banner]

She has seen Wiley and tells me that he is mixed with an aussie because of his coloring, that the color on his face (the "copper") is too dark to be within the "standards" for a tri border collie. She then went on to tell me how rare the tri is in America.

OH and here is the kicker... She said she wouldn't work with him once he is old enough because she only works w/ BC's and not mixed breeds.

Needless to say I won't be using her at all for training. I just want to educate her so she doesn't sound ignorant when she talks to other people who may believe they have mixed breeds based on what she tells them. It's sad when a trainer doesn't know anything about the breed she will only work with.

 

I'm with sea4th & Lenajo, get away from the nutball. Wiley and his copper markings will be better served by someone who doesn't care what color he is.

[Brandi]

I kinda wonder what the real deal is. Is it the trainer basing the opinion of "mixed breed" on the color or is she basing it on the way the dog travels and carries itself and then is using the color to support her suspisions that your dog may be a aussie cross?

 

Deb

 

Everything about him is BC, the way he stalks, acts. The only thing he doesn't do that a typical BC does is lay on the ground and watch things. He lowers to the ground but he never actually lays down. So I guess she could base it on that but that would still be pretty silly. Don't ya think?

[Debbie Meier]

Everything about him is BC, the way he stalks, acts. The only thing he doesn't do that a typical BC does is lay on the ground and watch things. He lowers to the ground but he never actually lays down. So I guess she could base it on that but that would still be pretty silly. Don't ya think?

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. It would be interesting to see a video of him to see what she sees. People are strange, we get hung up on something that does not make sense, sometimes without even realizing it. If she is hung up on him being an aussie cross she could just be considering which is more likely based on what is in your area, a border collie with copper or typical aussie coloring.

 

Heck, we still run across people that are breeding border collies that insist a smooth coated border collie is a cross bred, or one with speckles is a cross. Then you have the ones with the splash of white on their forehead, ACD people may sware that the dog is a ACD cross claiming that their breed is the only one with a bently mark.

 

I guess my thoughts about the trainer is to judge her based on how her dogs work, how her students dogs work and what venue they compete in. As to her knowledge about coat colors, I'm not so sure it has anything to do with training a border collie, yes it give you a reason to take pause, but it could just be that she is not into the internet or travelling and has only seen traditional border collies.

 

Deb

[ejano]

Purebred border.....very copper.

 

 

 

Your herding trainer doesn't know what she's talking about.

 

What a beautiful dog!

 

Question -- Robin is a red Tri and I always describe his eyebrows and jowls as gold. He has gold highlights in his dark red coat as well. Is gold a color that exists in the Border Collie coat, or is it a very bright tan?

[mbc1963]

I told some guy my tri-color BC was a BC once. He said, "No, I think it's a Bernese Mountain Dog." Those were the only tri-color dogs marked like Buddy that he knew. So, Buddy must be one. I just smile and move on.

 

Mary

[juliepoudrier]

I'm with those who say why bother trying to educate her? Let her show her complete ignorance to folks to go to her for training and maybe they'll have the sense to ask, like you did, if there's any truth to her reasoning. When they get the same answers you did, they'll wise up and move on too. In other words, why help her gain clients? She doesn't sound like the sort of trainer I'd want to send anyone to.

 

Debbie,

I disagree with you. It seems to me that if you are going to put yourself forward as an expert on something--and someone who is taking money to train someone else's dog is by that very fact setting themselves out as an expert--then you ought to know the very basics about the breed, including color and hair coat. Tri color is extremely common. It's not as if the OP showed up with a lilac merle and the trainer was incredulous at *that* color....

 

I think it's a bit silly to excuse the trainer by arguing with the OP that maybe her dog doesn't act like a border collie when in fact she says it does.

 

J.

[Brandi]

I'm with those who say why bother trying to educate her? Let her show her complete ignorance to folks to go to her for training and maybe they'll have the sense to ask, like you did, if there's any truth to her reasoning. When they get the same answers you did, they'll wise up and move on too. In other words, why help her gain clients? She doesn't sound like the sort of trainer I'd want to send anyone to.

 

Debbie,

I disagree with you. It seems to me that if you are going to put yourself forward as an expert on something--and someone who is taking money to train someone else's dog is by that very fact setting themselves out as an expert--then you ought to know the very basics about the breed, including color and hair coat. Tri color is extremely common. It's not as if the OP showed up with a lilac merle and the trainer was incredulous at *that* color....

 

I think it's a bit silly to excuse the trainer by arguing with the OP that maybe her dog doesn't act like a border collie when in fact she says it does.

 

J.

 

I can see where both of you are coming from. Wiley does not have papers, however I have seen his parents and the lady I got him from is a reputable breeder of both aussies and border collies (the trainer knows all of this). He was sold to me as a pure bred BC, looks like a BC, stalks like a BC, Smart like a BC and his parents are papered she sold him to me w/ out papers because I didn't want to spend 100.00 extra just for a piece of paper for a soon to be neutered dog. There is absolutely NO reason for me or anyone else to think he is not a pure bred BC. The only thing I can think is that he doesn't lay down and watch things he "squats" and watches things.

 

Additionally as a trainer and professional dog handler, she SHOULD know everything (or close to everything) there is to know about the breed she specializes in dontcha think?? like basic COAT COLORS! She is an ol' school gal but she should venture on the internet and educate herself if she is going to be a professional border collie trainer.

[Rave]

Geonni, about the dilution sidebar, I think it's just a difference in terminology. Most BC people (at least most here) refer to what you call "double dilute" as a double merle or homozygous merle or a "big no-no!" The term dilution is typically used to describe the coat effect on solid-colored dogs, e.g. black to "blue," not on merles (at least among this crew).

 

On to the main discussion, my friends with Aussies refer to their tri's as having "copper points," and I've yet to hear any BC people use the term copper. Tri is tri, whether it's brown, tan, copper, etc.. They also use the term "black bi" for a black and white. Silly Aussie people.

[Chesney's Girl]

Oh, well, that explains it...

 

Thanks Journey... We're not all idiots working dogs down here!

 

 

Southern California has plenty of tri Border Collies in the working circles that have no Aussie in them, anywhere. I would suggest a new trainer to you and I'll PM it to you.

 

I would take the advice here. Run away!

[Debbie Meier]

I can see where both of you are coming from. Wiley does not have papers, however I have seen his parents and the lady I got him from is a reputable breeder of both aussies and border collies (the trainer knows all of this). He was sold to me as a pure bred BC, looks like a BC, stalks like a BC, Smart like a BC and his parents are papered she sold him to me w/ out papers because I didn't want to spend 100.00 extra just for a piece of paper for a soon to be neutered dog. There is absolutely NO reason for me or anyone else to think he is not a pure bred BC. The only thing I can think is that he doesn't lay down and watch things he "squats" and watches things.

 

These are quotes from some of your old posts, now in this one you talk about the breeder having both bc's and aussies, $100 more for papers..., not typically a sign of a reputable breeder. Your dog may very will be purebred border collie, but based on your posts I would not say that there is no reason to think that he is not, anything is possible when a breeder has more then one breed of dog.

 

Also "(the trainer knows all of this)", does the trainer know the breeder? I'm not trying to say you don't know your dog, I just can't help but wonder if there is a reason that the trainer in question is saying your dog is a mixed breed other then the just by relying on the copper color.

 

 

"The dam of my pup was black and white, I never got to see his sire. In the litter there were 2 b/w pups, 1 Tri (wiley) and one blue merle. So does that make the sire Blue merle? What are your thoughts? "

"I don't have any papers for him. The gal said both of his parents were agility/ working dogs. She had just been in a car accident that left her paralyzed and was getting out of the business. Prior to her accident she was a very accomplished agility dog trainer/breeder. I didn't really care if he was registered or not because I was just going to neuter him. "

 

 

Additionally as a trainer and professional dog handler, she SHOULD know everything (or close to everything) there is to know about the breed she specializes in dontcha think?? like basic COAT COLORS! She is an ol' school gal but she should venture on the internet and educate herself if she is going to be a professional border collie trainer.

 

Ideally yes, you would like them to know, but unfortunately some don't. Reminding me of a trainer/judge/breeder (not bc) telling me that a scissor bite was a fault due it causing injury to livestock...cut's like a scissors is what was said, I did some google searching to verify the information.

 

We tend to want to place trainers on a pedestal, doing so is only setting ourselves up for disappointment. I doubt you will find a single trainer/professional that knows it all, they will be versed on what is most important to them.

 

We forget that the internet has not been around all that long, along with the wealth of information and misinformation that can be found on it. We may google, bing or dogpile to find all the answers, but there are many that do not.

[Journey]

Thanks Journey... We're not all idiots working dogs down here!

 

 

Sorry ya'll...Anna, Candy and Danielle... btw where did the SLU go in your name??

[Chesney's Girl]

 

Sorry ya'll...Anna, Candy and Danielle... btw where did the SLU go in your name??

 

 

Ahh no worries

 

Yeah I took it out since I've graduate from Southeastern and just wanted to keep it simple now.