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[JohnLloydJones]

So, we are in the dog beach area of the dog park. Rhys bach is happy running and dropping the ball at random people's feet. Everyone is happy.

 

Then a young boy (10-11?) enters the off-leash area with his bicycle and starts riding towards us. As soon as Senneca sees him, she is off trying to jump (and nip) him. I scream and manage to call her off.

 

"Please do not ride your bicycle here", I tell him, "she will jump on you".

 

He stares at me and says nothing. His face, on the other hand speaks reams. He starts to ride again.

 

Senneca immediately runs, jumps and grabs his arm -- just above his wrist. He stops and his face tells me that he is shocked. Scared. He looks at his arm. No mark; Senneca is gentle and has a soft mouth, but she has got the message across 100 times better than I could ever do. He walked his bicycle to the gate. Sulking.

[bc4ever]

Lesson learned. Good girl, Senneca!

[RoseAmy]

I hate to be a wet blanket here. But you are setting yourself up to be sued. Many parents will be less then thrilled to have a strange dog jump on their child and nip at them whether teeth marks were left or not.

[desertranger]

There is also the question of the kid breaking the law. Bikes and unescorted children are not allowed in the dog parks here. However they come all the time. Complain to the cops about it and instead of removing the kids from a fenced in dog area we are told to keep the dogs under better control.

[Maralynn]

I hate to be a wet blanket here. But you are setting yourself up to be sued. Many parents will be less then thrilled to have a strange dog jump on their child and nip at them whether teeth marks were left or not.

 

Agreed^^

 

You can't let your dog chase and bite random bicyclists no matter how big of a jerk they're being. Soft mouth or not it is incredibly easy for a canine tooth to rip the skin when you have a moving dog and a moving arm.

[JohnLloydJones]

I hate to be a wet blanket here. But you are setting yourself up to be sued. Many parents will be less then thrilled to have a strange dog jump on their child and nip at them whether teeth marks were left or not.

 

Let me say straight away, that I do my utmost to avoid such situations. I am perfectly aware that most parents would be "less then thrilled" by the situation. This was not a nip -- she had his arm (just above his wrist) in her mouth -- I was shocked and very relieved that there were no teeth marks.

 

Our dog park rules ban children running and chasing dogs -- not sure if that covers riding a bicycle. I don't think our park people considered it. If they had, then maybe the pathway down from the parking lot wouldn't have been laid out as a skateboard / cycle speedway. That notwithstanding, riding a bicycle inside the off-leash area -- where there is no path or trail, because it's basically a thin strip beside the lake -- seems to me to be just too much.

 

Complain to the cops about it and instead of removing the kids from a fenced in dog area we are told to keep the dogs under better control.

Well, the park rules require dogs to under verbal control (hollow laugh, as most dogs there don't even seem to know their name, let alone respond to commands). Calling the police isn't much help in most cases -- unless something serious has happened.

[sweet_ceana]

This is part of the reason I, and others that I know, don't go to that park. It is a shame since it is the number one dog park in the country. There will be a law suit at some point at that dog park. There are way too many bikes, skate boards and small children. The last time I went there were adults running in the dog park, and toddlers just walking around inside the dog area. I just don't understand how people can be okay with letting their toddler meander around 20-30 strange dogs, but apparently they can be.

 

I thought about calling the police the last time I was there, but I know there wouldn't be much that they could do. They can only enforce the law, they cannot enforce common sense.

 

The dog parks by my house forbid children under 12 and under 16 without supervision. Of course people don't always give a you know what about the rules, but they are not a frequent occurence. The park by John's house is used as a people park as much as a dog park. (At least the times that I have been there)

 

I would love if you had to buy membership to this park. It would keep people from bringing their wee ones to go look and pet the doggies. -sigh- That park is a law suit trap. You could have the best trained border collie in the world and still worry you are going to get sued. The people are unpredictable.

[geonni banner]

This is a scary scenario. While I sympathize with you and understand that Seneca is not a dangerous dog, the law view things differently. Unfortunately, if the kid in question had had a parent with him you might have found yourself in a five-figure lawsuit. Seneca’s actions might be described as aggressive in a court of law, and even mouthing the boy’s arm could be construed as a bite. Dog parks have been closed over such incidents. Dogs have been impounded and in some cases, euthanized.

Then there is the “he said, she said” aspect of the situation – by the time the kid gets home, Seneca has been transformed into a raging beast that nearly savaged a poor innocent child…

 

I recommend that you try to desensitize Seneca to bicycles to avoid any further incidents. It may be worth her life someday. People, by and large, don’t understand dogs. They see Cujo in any dog that doesn’t behave in a way consistent with their expectations. And in my experience, the parents are no better than the kids. I was once standing at a corner with my Doberman at sitting heel, waiting for a walk light. A bus was approaching and pulling into the stop at that corner when some little monster child of about 10 rushed up and pushed my Dobie off the curb and into the path of the bus! Thank God for the leash! I was able to pull Blaise to safety. I won’t repeat what I had to say to that child and his mother – who seemed not to understand that there was a problem with her canicidal brat.

 

On a more personal level, I would have been congratulating Seneca inside my head, while correcting her for the way she behaved. Maybe the little monster on the bicycle will think twice before ignoring a timely warning about his inappropriate bike riding. Unfortunately it’s equally likely that he will get lots of sympathy for his “terrible ordeal” and become even more defiant. Life is just not fair sometimes…

[JohnLloydJones]

The last time I went there were adults running in the dog park, and toddlers just walking around inside the dog area. I just don't understand how people can be okay with letting their toddler meander around 20-30 strange dogs, but apparently they can be.

We get small children and toddlers all the time. I no longer react to their presence unless they are wandering out on the dock where high-speed wet-nosed projectiles accelerate before leaping into the lake. Amazingly enough, I have never seen any incident with the small children -- though older children and adults (myself included) have been knocked flying.

[Ooky]

"Please do not ride your bicycle here", I tell him, "she will jump on you".

 

He stares at me and says nothing. His face, on the other hand speaks reams. He starts to ride again.

 

Ugg. This is why I really dislike a fairly high proportion of children. You are left wondering, have they never been told "no" about anything? Even if it's not their fault they lack common sense around pets, what's up with just ignoring adults asking them to behave reasonably or not to do something for their own safety?

 

My neighborhood is about 60-75% African American, and I have to say that the black culture I'm familiar with has not, ime at least, ruined their children the same way. The kids in my neighborhood love Odin but are very respectful of him. Older children warn younger children not to approach him without expressly asking my permission first. They also tend to interact with dogs much more carefully and use commands, etc. I get asked, "Does he bite?", not in a scared way, but in a way that innately acknowledges that some dogs just do and it's normal, and those dogs simply don't need to be petted by strangers. They are more observant of his state of mind, and because scooters make him nervous, I've actually had several kids voluntarily, without any instruction from me, put their scooters down far away before coming to play with him, telling others, "Odin doesn't like scooters, put yours away!" (By nervous, I mean he's very alert about the scooters, wants to get out of their way, and for some reason hasn't learned to be completely blase about them like he has bikes etc.)

 

Of course, I know several Caucasian children who are good around dogs, not totally spoiled, and will listen to adults, but in general, I'd *much* rather see a group of young black children approach us than white. Odin has so far always been bombproof around all children, and I can trust him around a group of screaming running kids no problem. But stories like geoni's always put me on high alert when I see strange kids approach. It seems to me growing up in semi-rural Arkansas that any of my crowd of friends would have listened to you and, like the kids in my current neighborhood, all knew strange (or even familiar) dogs could be dangerous. So I think it's not actually racial as much as it's the way a lot of white middle class americans are recently all, "oh honey, you're SO SPECIAL. You can do anything you want! Rules stifle creativity! Go hug the nice puppy!" etc.

 

Sorry for the rant. If I sound curmudgeonly, I'll note I've been reading the new book NurtureShock and going "Yes! YES!!" at regular intervals.

 

ETF spelling

[JohnLloydJones]

You are left wondering, have they never been told "no" about anything? Even if it's not their fault they lack common sense around pets, what's up with just ignoring adults asking them to behave reasonably or not to do something for their own safety?

I suspect that they have not had much interaction with their parents at all. They have been given no reason to respect adults. And it's not just that "they lack common sense around pets"; common sense isn't common anymore (if indeed, it ever was).

[geonni banner]

Ugg. This is why I really dislike a fairly high proportion of children. You are left wondering, have they never been told "no" about anything? Even if it's not their fault they lack common sense around pets, what's up with just ignoring adults asking them to behave reasonably or not to do something for their own safety?

 

My neighborhood is about 60-75% African American, and I have to say that the black culture I'm familiar with has not, ime at least, ruined their children the same way. The kids in my neighborhood love Odin but are very respectful of him. Older children warn younger children not to approach him without expressly asking my permission first. They also tend to interact with dogs much more carefully and use commands, etc. I get asked, "Does he bite?", not in a scared way, but in a way that innately acknowledges that some dogs just do and it's normal, and those dogs simply don't need to be petted by strangers. They are more observant of his state of mind, and because scooters make him nervous, I've actually had several kids voluntarily, without any instruction from me, put their scooters down far away before coming to play with him, telling others, "Odin doesn't like scooters, put yours away!" (By nervous, I mean he's very alert about the scooters, wants to get out of their way, and for some reason hasn't learned to be completely blase about them like he has bikes etc.)

 

Of course, I know several Caucasian children who are good around dogs, not totally spoiled, and will listen to adults, but in general, I'd *much* rather see a group of young black children approach us than white. Odin has so far always been bombproof around all children, and I can trust him around a group of screaming running kids no problem. But stories like geoni's always put me on high alert when I see strange kids approach. It seems to me growing up in semi-rural Arkansas that any of my crowd of friends would have listened to you and, like the kids in my current neighborhood, all knew strange (or even familiar) dogs could be dangerous. So I think it's not actually racial as much as it's the way a lot of white middle class americans are recently all, "oh honey, you're SO SPECIAL. You can do anything you want! Rules stifle creativity! Go hug the nice puppy!" etc.

 

Sorry for the rant. If I sound curmudgeonly, I'll note I've been reading the new book NurtureShock and going "Yes! YES!!" at regular intervals.

 

No. no, it's ok - I can relate! I always hear people trashing skate-rats, but in my neighborhood (which is full of "entitled yuppies" and their spoiled brats) the skate rats are the ONLY kids that consistently act sane around my Lurcher and my BC. They will notice if the dogs are a bit nervous about them and thier noisy boards and stop, and sit down on the boards. They don't reach for the dogs until they are being approached by a dog who is curious/ friendly and ONLY THEN do they reach out their hands. A lot of these kids are African American and Latino. Some are white kids. Interestingly, they are always polite to me as well. They are a little wild otherwise, but heck - I'll take a kid who scuffs up curbs over one that is clueless about dogs any day! It was a yuppie kid that pushed my Dobie in front of a bus, and the way these upwardly-mobile types will smilingly allow there toddlers to put a hammer-lock on a full-grown Doberman Pinscher's head is mind-boggling!

 

ETF spelling

[desertranger]

@Geonni was there a point?

 

It's amazing how much time I spend explaining to adults how to approach a dog. Everyone seems to think dogs relish a pat on the head and no one has ever taught them a hand from above is really an aggressive move to a dog. I try to teach the same thing to kids. I hope it helps a little bit.

[mbc1963]

I can attest, as a middle school teacher, that there is a huge problem with entitled kids.

 

Remember when you used to watch "The Little Rascals" ("Our Gang") on TV, and they were always travelling around during the Depression, and there was always one token rich, spoiled kid who did not know how to share, play with others, or listen to adults? His parents always rushed in to protect him, and believed him when he tattled on others, and thought every bump and bruise was a trauma. That spoiled kid always got his comeuppance by the end of the show - because it was acknowledged as a fact of life that overindulged children needed to be knocked about a bit by life before they'd fit in.

 

I look around at my students now, and think that probably 40% of them ARE that spoiled, entitled, whiny kid. And that's not even really the problem, because I think the kids know that life won't treat them the way their parents do. It's absolutely the parents who are the problem: even if the kid knows that he doesn't deserve an "A" in English, or the lead in the school play, or the quarterback position - because he knows how talented the other kids are in comparison to him - his parents won't let him graciously accept this fact, grow, and move on. The parents intervene constantly so that their children won't have to experience any sort of discomfort at all - which prevents their children from learning those key lessons about accepting our limitations, setting goals and working toward them, and dealing with failure. You should see what happens if I dare to give certain kids a "B" in science! We have to set up meetings, to develop an "intervention" plan. (Know what my intervention plan is? STUDY!)

 

My sister and I were trying to drive down a road to a dog walking field a few weeks ago. This was a public road, mind you, through a fairly deserted stretch of fields and woods. There was a big van driving ahead of us at about 10 or 15 mph - way too slowly - but because of the curve of the road and the incline, we couldn't pass her. Well, finally, we got around her and were able to see why she was going so slowly: she was following her two pre-adolescent daughers, who were riding their bikes. I kid you not, these girls were 11 or 12 years old, and fully helmeted, but in order to drive down this road, they had to be trailed by their mother, in her VAN.

 

And, as an aside, I can say that I live in a racially mixed neighborhood - much more blue collar than it is where I teach. The kids in my neighborhood seem to live much freer childhoods than the wealthier kids I teach: they ride their bikes around at 7 or 8, they walk home from school, they hang out in yards and on street corners like I used to do. So, I think maybe the entitlement and overprotection has more to do with socioeconomic status than with race. Some parents just have waaaaay too much money and time on their hands, and nothing better to do with their emotions than hypermonitor their children, obsessing about every choice they make.

 

Mary

[geonni banner]

Just relating to/ identifying with Ooky's post. Kids and dogs can be a nightmare despite the assertions of Disney and the media in general - but sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised. It's great to give people a glimmer of appropriate dog/ stranger interaction, but sometimes you just wanna "get out of Dodge! And it's complicated by a shy dog or a dog with a clear cut sense of what is ok and what isn't (in terms of the behavior of the public at large.)

I was holding my breath when I read the first post in this thread because I had a somewhat similar experience myself. A smooth collie I was fostering once objected to a couple of grown men who were throwing punches at each other on a public sidewalk. (It was all in fun, I could see that very clearly, but it clearly offended Sean's sense of propriety. One punch came past my head - about 2 feet from me - and Sean was offended. Not angry, mind you; he didn't growl or lunge. He simple rose up onto his hind legs and intercepted the offending arm. No jaw pressure - but he remained standing up holding the man's arm, and directing a look of disgust at him. The man very sensibly froze, and I said very calmly to Sean, "Let him go, Seannie, he didn't mean any harm." Sean complied and we continued on our way, leaving two very bewildered but respectful men behind us.

 

Here's a pic of Sean w/ my Doberwoman, Blaise. Seannie was a big boy!

[border_collie_crazy]

most kids I have met in my naighborhood(just outside of the hood, so not exactly affluent!) have been wonderful with my dogs, they ALWAYS ask to pet them, they walk them sometimes, play with them etc.. never ran into a problem child. but meeting some of the people at the kennel.... just today, someone dropped off their Shih Tzu, the kid was awful to the poor dog! like this little girl spoke proudly of smacking her dogs face, poking her dog in the face repeatedly(and proundly demenstrated!) and of taunting her dog while her dog was trying to eat. the dog bites her for all of these. does she learn? nope, she LOVES making the dog bite her, she thinks its the greatest thing ever and was oh so proud. her mom didnt teach her different.. her mom hates the dog and doesnt care anyway. we got all these warnings about how this dog bites everyone that walks through their doors. gee I wonder why? its entirly 100% THEM, because after they left this dog was so calm and gentle, and friendly with everyone, dogs and humans alike.

[BC-Liz]

I can attest, as a middle school teacher, that there is a huge problem with entitled kids.

 

Remember when you used to watch "The Little Rascals" ("Our Gang") on TV, and they were always travelling around during the Depression, and there was always one token rich, spoiled kid who did not know how to share, play with others, or listen to adults? His parents always rushed in to protect him, and believed him when he tattled on others, and thought every bump and bruise was a trauma. That spoiled kid always got his comeuppance by the end of the show - because it was acknowledged as a fact of life that overindulged children needed to be knocked about a bit by life before they'd fit in.

 

I look around at my students now, and think that probably 40% of them ARE that spoiled, entitled, whiny kid. And that's not even really the problem, because I think the kids know that life won't treat them the way their parents do. It's absolutely the parents who are the problem: even if the kid knows that he doesn't deserve an "A" in English, or the lead in the school play, or the quarterback position - because he knows how talented the other kids are in comparison to him - his parents won't let him graciously accept this fact, grow, and move on. The parents intervene constantly so that their children won't have to experience any sort of discomfort at all - which prevents their children from learning those key lessons about accepting our limitations, setting goals and working toward them, and dealing with failure. You should see what happens if I dare to give certain kids a "B" in science! We have to set up meetings, to develop an "intervention" plan. (Know what my intervention plan is? STUDY!)

 

My sister and I were trying to drive down a road to a dog walking field a few weeks ago. This was a public road, mind you, through a fairly deserted stretch of fields and woods. There was a big van driving ahead of us at about 10 or 15 mph - way too slowly - but because of the curve of the road and the incline, we couldn't pass her. Well, finally, we got around her and were able to see why she was going so slowly: she was following her two pre-adolescent daughers, who were riding their bikes. I kid you not, these girls were 11 or 12 years old, and fully helmeted, but in order to drive down this road, they had to be trailed by their mother, in her VAN.

 

And, as an aside, I can say that I live in a racially mixed neighborhood - much more blue collar than it is where I teach. The kids in my neighborhood seem to live much freer childhoods than the wealthier kids I teach: they ride their bikes around at 7 or 8, they walk home from school, they hang out in yards and on street corners like I used to do. So, I think maybe the entitlement and overprotection has more to do with socioeconomic status than with race. Some parents just have waaaaay too much money and time on their hands, and nothing better to do with their emotions than hypermonitor their children, obsessing about every choice they make.

 

Mary

 

I 110% agree. Kinda scares me to think what the next generation will be.

[Lenajo]

It's very simple to me.

 

You cannot control what other people's children will do.

 

You *can* control what your dog has access too, how he is trained, and what you allow. Bikes, skateboards, running children, these are normal things! Teach the dog to behave around them or leash them, go elsewhere, or stay home. Period. End of discussion.

 

If your dog grabbed my child by the arm like that I would have taken an inch of her hide and then off yours. I would have probably followed by disciplining my child for disobeying an adult making a reasonable request. That however, is not the point. The point is that your dog put it's mouth on a child with intent. I don't care if it didn't break skin. Does it matter if somebody threatens you with a gun but does not pull the trigger? Are you less scared? was the intent any different?

 

As it stands right now Seneca is a labeled dangerous dog. Nope, she hasn't bitten yet. She's 1 tooth away. All that kid had to do was yank his arm back and you'd be there.

 

You better do something about prevention..asap...no, yesterday! You are heading places no dog owner wants to go.

[Anda]

A dog park is not a safari. It's not that people enter at their own risk. Dogs brought to a park shouldn't be aggressive to people or towards other dogs.

 

One of the parks we go to has bike and even horse trails. Despite not liking the potential encounter with a horse in a dog park, and having had two incidents a couple of years ago when my dog took off after some horses in the distance - luckily for his life he didn't actually get too close and once he came back was seriously reprimanded for it; so... despite that... I expect him to sit and wait if a horse shows up. And he does it (now). We had a surprised show up by a ranger car coming on the tiny path among dozens of dogs. Stupid idea from the ranger. But everyone got their dogs and waited for the car to pass.

 

The one time I did say something to a kid and his mom was when a 10 year old was walking (without any dog of his own) through all the dogs, banging a big stick on the ground. I reminded him that some dogs might see that as aggressive and he might get in trouble. Yup... common sense tells one not to bang a freakin' branch of a tree in front of dogs... because if anything communicates aggression to dogs, that's it. He stopped playing with the stick and continued to walk calmly.

 

My point? Even if it's a dog park, you need to control your dog's reaction to unexpected stimuli. Same as you would when walking him on a leash on a neighborhood street.

[Lizmo]

Echoing what Anda and Lenajo have said. I know you can't control what the child does and he was not supposed to be riding his bike in the dog park, but you can control your dog, and it's just putting your dog at risk of being PTS for biting a child - even if the child deserved it.

[RoseAmy]

Thanks Lenajo and Anda now I don't feel like such a wet blanket anymore.

 

I've been very bothered that the op seemed to be almost proud of his dog "putting" a child in his place. And everyone else jumping on the band wagon of how unruly kids are.

 

Kids will be kids and as was stated bikes, skate boards and etc. are a part of life. Even if the child was breaking park rules two wrongs don't make a right.

[Ooky]

Thanks Lenajo and Anda now I don't feel like such a wet blanket anymore.

 

I've been very bothered that the op seemed to be almost proud of his dog "putting" a child in his place. And everyone else jumping on the band wagon of how unruly kids are.

 

Kids will be kids and as was stated bikes, skate boards and etc. are a part of life. Even if the child was breaking park rules two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I don't think two wrongs make a right either, and I completely agree with Anda that dogs brought to public places should be completely trustworthy around kids, even total jerk kids. My dog is trustworthy this way, possibly the most trustworthy dog I've ever known. He has tolerated being poked in the eye by toddlers with the utmost grace, does not chase any wheeled person (scooters he merely wants to skulk away from), and never tries to chase, nip, or herd kids. HE loves them MUCH more than I do. I have been told recently (by a kid) that he is "the best kid-dog ever".

 

I was simply ranting in commiseration with JLJ regarding the frustration of dealing with that kid, and didn't feel the need to pile on him. I felt the intital posts were very clear about his potential liability in the situation, and I went off on a tangent as part of the overall discussion. Not unruly, but downright disrespectful and impudent would be more my take on that kid if he acted as described, BTW.

 

Sigh - this is a touchy subject for me. I just found out I am having a baby (assuming all goes well). This is totally unplanned and I am hoping I will end up liking my kid much more than many I see running around totally out of control. Everyone says I will, so I gotta believe 'em. All I do know, though, is I would definitely read my kid the riot act for acting that way to a polite adult requesting something intended for his/her own safety. AND I intend to ensure my kid will be respectful and kind to dogs, and not intentionally take pleasure in antagonizing them or their owners for no reason.

[Anda]

Ooky!!! Congrats!!!!

[Maralynn]

Congrats Ooky!! You'll do fine - your own properly raised kids can be a joy to be around no matter how bratty other kids are! Kids can learn from a very early age to act around dogs if they're raised right.

 

I understand the frustration of the OP, but there is no way the dog should have ever been allowed to bite the boy. Period. He's very very fortunate nothing came of this incident.

[Lenajo]

I think tone is a big issue here, and comments indicating that the kid "deserved" what he got. No he didn't. He was being stupid, and yes, he should know/be taught better, but he doesn't deserve the threat of harm. Nobody does. Least of all a kid.

 

The other issus is the dog owners "right" to public places. It's not something to take lightly anymore with more and more legislation and anti-dog sentiment. Getting along within the bounds of human public behavior is required! Some dogs can't, I respect that, but that means we must protect both parties doing what we can control from our end.

 

What this dog did the first time was an accident - and a reason to take out the leash and train rather that allow it to happen again.

 

Kid skin is fragile, and a lot of ER level bites are just a kid yanking away from a non-damaging intent hold of the dog.

 

eta Congrats to Ooky!