Starting a dog

[DTrain]

I have been watching this thread for some time and I have been thinking back to my very first days. I had the privilege of working in western Canada with know top handlers and trainers who have more than proven themselves to the herding world. I cannot support this method and if I was just starting out I would need to reject it. I cannot see where me or my dogs could benefit from leash training herding. I started very differently. I started with a trained dog and I was told to learn from the dog and I did. I was then given a puppy to raise and one day we both arrived at a point where I took my grown puppy to stock to train. I used a long lead just to see how he would respond. He investigated, he went in to see what these sheep creatures are all about. After a while and I dropped the leash, he went around the sheep and began to move them to me in a clumsy fashion but he did what I wanted to see, the starting point, the instinct. The leash came off and away we went. I praised my dog and took him home. When I came back the next day guess what he did, it was there. I may not have reached that point leash training my dog for several sessions and my dog I would have feared may not have displayed his instinct and I may not have had the opportunity to praise my dog and instill in him that what he did was the right thing. I would be fearful that I may by directing him have sent the wrong message. I read Denise Walls post on page three and it brought back a lot of memories of working in southern Alberta at big distance in a big wind and no chance of passing along a command and my dogs do what they were bred to do. I am not a big time trainer or an expert but I do have the honor of working with very well bred dogs. If I were to start over again today and using this line method I would have a fear that I may influence my dog and send a negative message. I would in no way want to do anything less than allowing my dog quite naturally display and feel his instincts. I can only imagine how scary it is for a young dog to go to stock for the first time. I can only imagine what they are thinking. On day one I do not want my dog to follow stock around on a lead while I try to figure out what is going on. I want my dog to display what he was bred to do, I want him to learn and feel and have confidence. I can only hope that on day one he gets the right message. I just can't see that holding him back and training him the right moves for multi-tasking on day one is of any real value to my dog. I am happy if he wants to go around the stock and attempt to move them to me, that is the starting point. My methods may be traditional, I subscribe to traditional methods, I learned traditional methods and I am not going to re-invent the wheel. Perhaps I could invent a new hot and trendy method and have newbees with new dogs flocking to my door for herding lessons but I am not going to.

[jdarling]

When I first saw "The Video" ...

 

Can someone post a link to the video? I must have missed it somewhere. Thanks.

[Caroline Reichard]

I do have a video of our lesson yesterday; if you would like to see it so you can see what I mean, it is HERE.

[jdarling]

Thank you.

 

Wow.

 

What do you see at 2:05?

[stockdogranch]

It's the less than talented, not so biddible, excitable dogs of all breeds, that need a lot of help to learn

Now, this makes more sense to me. Using a line for some of these dogs to protect one's sheep does not seem like a bad idea. Having worked with a large number of this type of dog over the years, as well as handlers who, as you describe, are not *in charge,* I can see why using a line would be desirable, or, better yet, as Penny mentions, just keep the dog outside of the pen.

 

However, this goes back to the question someone asked earlier (paraphrased): "Why does everyone think their dog should go chase the sheepies?"

 

Not every dog is a stockdog. Frankly, I got tired of pleading with all of those dogs who had zero interest (in a high-pitched voice), "come on, now, Poopsie, watch the sheepies," or, for those who only wanted to take a sheep down, whomping on them repeatedly with my crook to save my poor sheep. Somewhere along the line I realized that there are just some things I am not willing to do, even for money, no matter how badly I may need it. That's not the kind of trainer I am or want to be. I think it's called integrity. At any rate, for some years now, I have refused to deal with those POSs, and will only work with "real" Border Collies worthy of the work.

 

So this makes it a bit of a philosophical question, I guess: Is it really "right" to continue to "train" these dogs for "herding" when they really don't have the "right stuff"? I think it's wonderful that these dogs and their owners have an activity to do together--quality time and all that--but that's why they invented agility and flyball. I am really tired of people with dogs who get titles and "herding championships" thinking they have a dog that can actually do some work. They can't,

A

[stockdogranch]

What do you see at 2:05?

Dog trying to go around the sheep to get to balance?

A

[PSmitty]

What do you see at 2:05?

 

A frustrated dog?

[Pippin's person]

However, this goes back to the question someone asked earlier (paraphrased): "Why does everyone think their dog should go chase the sheepies?"

 

Not every dog is a stockdog. [snip]

 

Somewhere along the line I realized that there are just some things I am not willing to do, even for money, no matter how badly I may need it. That's not the kind of trainer I am or want to be. I think it's called integrity. At any rate, for some years now, I have refused to deal with those POSs, and will only work with "real" Border Collies worthy of the work.

 

So this makes it a bit of a philosophical question, I guess: Is it really "right" to continue to "train" these dogs for "herding" when they really don't have the "right stuff"? [snip]

A

 

This has been an interesting conversation and handled by and large with grace. I think Anna brings up a really important topic--perhaps even the crux of the matter.

 

Speaking as someone coming out of the pet/sport side of things and who generally wants to do things the "right" way, I think it's important for trainers and students to be as clear as they can be about their goals and prospects (and of course, that will change over time for many people/dogs). If I were researching "herding" and saw, for instance, a beginner course offered on-line that professed to provide me the basic training tools needed to actually get out and do the activity, I could well imagine I would do it. A fool and her money, perhaps, but it would have come from a sincere desire to learn properly.

 

I get that much of the business for any instructor working with dogs will ultimately come from folks who are looking to do something "fun" with their dog--that's true in agility, obedience, whatever. Working stock seems to have the added dimension of tapping into something perceived to be innate in the dog and that's really appealing. It definitely was and is for me. And, each trainer has to find their own line in the sand. But, there is also a very real possibility to exploit lack of knowledge and that's where the integrity part comes in. (I don't have enough information (or knowledge) about the training situation being discussed here, so I'm making no claims about it specifically)

 

It was very helpful for me early on that the person we train with pointed out the limitations Pippin had as a potential working dog. This trainer was (and has always been) upfront about what she sees as the weaknesses (ETA: and strengths) in my dogs and in her sense of how those weaknesses interact with my process of learning. She is infinitely encouraging, but she also doesn't lead me into a sense that this or that dog will take me here or there.

 

It really does become a philosophical question--and not just about whether the dog has the right stuff.....

[juliepoudrier]

Anna,

I think the difference is that all those POSes (uh, should that be a double s?) *can* probably make it around certain dumbed down courses, and so of course their owners can take home titles and claim that their HCh Poopsie still embodies the great and historical purpose of the breed. (Oh, and should be bred to carry on the greating herding champion tradition.)

 

I was thinking about this whole discussion last night and came to the conclusion that Kathy's method is probably perfect for breeds of dogs who no longer retain much innate instinct or talent and for poorly-bred border collies who no longer retain much instinct or talent. I dog that doesn't have the desire to actually *work* stock isn't likely to be frustrated by being guided around the stock by its owner, even if the owner doesn't read stock well or has poor timing. As I noted in an earlier post--no harm is done to the handler or the sheep, and if the dog is one who doesn't much care about working either, then probably no harm done there. Kathy herself said she doesn't really need this method for talented dogs.

 

ETA: I see that Robin was posting at the same time--I agree that it's largely a philosophical issue about whether to encourage folks getting out and doing something with their dogs and whether you encourage people whose dogs clearly don't have what it takes. The argument against this has always centered on whether it's fair to the livestock, and rightly so, but in Kathy's method it's clear that the stock are not being harmed or even overly stressed, so then the question simply becomes: Is it right to offer this opportunity to folks?

 

J.

[Sue R]

However, this goes back to the question someone asked earlier (paraphrased): "Why does everyone think their dog should go chase the sheepies?"

 

The thing that I hear over and over is that the owner/handler wants their dog to "do what it was bred to do". I doesn't matter that many generations have passed since any of the particular dog's ancestors were selected for anything but appearance or pet qualities. If the dog is one of the "herding group", then it's capable of "herding" and should be doing so in some fashion for it to have a fulfilling life of some sort. And that's where the sheep often are nothing more than a toy, a way for the handler's dog to "express" itself and its "herding instincts".

 

It's rather like a person who owns a dog that was traditionally a bird/gun dog breed, and encouraging it to go out in the yard and point song birds. If it spent its time chasing song birds, would that be fulfilling? Would it be good for the birds?

 

So this makes it a bit of a philosophical question, I guess: Is it really "right" to continue to "train" these dogs for "herding" when they really don't have the "right stuff"? I think it's wonderful that these dogs and their owners have an activity to do together--quality time and all that--but that's why they invented agility and flyball. I am really tired of people with dogs who get titles and "herding championships" thinking they have a dog that can actually do some work. They can't,

A

There was an interesting discussion on the Working Sheepdogs list about this. A trainer had a student with a dog that the trainer felt were going nowhere, but the student and the dog were enjoying the lessons and not being detrimental to the sheep. Should the trainer tell the student he would not provide lessons because the student and dog had gone as far as they could (which was pretty much nowhere)?

 

I think there are a number of "trainers" (and this is not limited to "all-breed trainers" but I think they are particularly prone to this) who simply will keep on a student/dog pair because it's part of their income or living, because the student and dog are enjoying themselves (hopefully neither are frustrated), and because that's how the sheep/ducks/stock earn their living, too.

 

A problem that I see with training any "herding breed" dog (or many other breeds of dogs) is that "stock sense" can be "seen" by some where it is really only a pretty normal prey drive. The "sustained interest" that instinct tests like to see is easily seen in any dog that has a prey drive and some persistence. So, you can see some very basics but the dog is not going to advance any further than that unless it is so biddable that the handler can place it and accomplish something - and, viola!, they are successful at herding!

 

Too often, this type of training is a matter of regular lessons that tend to be the same thing over and over again - run the course, do it again ad nauseum, until the handler and dog might (or might not) have a chance at earning a title or leg or whatever - without really even trying to teach foundations, understanding, and principles that will train the handler to do anything but run that dog on that course with that kind of stock.

 

I would guess that, if the trainer is totally honest with the owner/handler about their and their dog's accomplishments and potential for advancement, and if the sheep/stock are not being misused, a trainer could ethically continue to work with a student and their dog. All cards on the table, and all honest.

 

What I don't think is ethical is when a trainer is not honest but leads the student to believe that they and their dog are really "herding" and progressing when they are not, when "tests" and "certificates" and "titles" are the goal rather than genuine accomplishment and advancement, and when a trainer is simply using the student as a gullible source of income.

 

JMO

[PSmitty]

Uh, thanks but I took all those May training videos down many months ago and no one noticed. Apparently, even still.

 

Videos like "Border collie attacks pumpkin" get nearly a million hits (if not more by now), but the stuff I put up, along with most other actual non AKC herding videos, not so many. It just didn't seem worth the effort. Plus YouTube kept changing formats and the quality was variable on each one. The old ones looked horrible.

 

Anyway, they're not there anymore.

 

Well, that's a shame. I really enjoyed them, and learned a lot. Thanks for sharing them with us back when...

 

(Sorry, I know this was pages ago, but I'm getting caught up!)

[Eileen Stein]

What do you see at 2:05?

 

Interesting question. What I don't see is what Kathy described in an earlier post:

 

In the corner where you see Jack blow up a couple of times, you can see Karrin is not correcting him for doing so, simply putting him back to work allowing him to settle with the sheep. The reason he is blowing up there is because the sheep do not want to leave that corner, and he has to push on them, which makes him very uncomfortable. Teaching Jack to calmly and confidently lift and push on the bubble of sheep has been his main trouble spot.

 

What I see is the sheep moving forward readily (probably because they are wanting to "run to the other side of the pen and stand in their favorite corner," as Kathy in another post said they would do if they could), the dog sensing that and moving (a bit rashly) to head them, and being prevented, and then moving back to head the ones who his first flurry had turned, and being prevented, and then being "settled" and plodding on. So basically, what Anna said, and what Paula said. But that's just the way it looks to me.

[kajarrel]

What I don't think is ethical is when a trainer is not honest, leads the student to believe that they and their dog are really "herding" and progressing when they are not, when "tests" and "certificates" and "titles" are the goal rather than genuine accomplishment and advancement, and is simply using the student as a gullible source of income.

 

And when this is used as "proof" of the dog's "herding ability" for breeding decisions (selling puppies) . . .

 

Kim

[Lenajo]

The "sustained interest" that instinct tests like to see is easily seen in any dog that has a prey drive and some persistence

 

This is a bit off topic, but since it was directed at my part of the discussion on the other thread I'll answer.

 

I can, as can any other average decent trainer of stockdogs, tell the difference between persistant prey drive and sustained interested in actually herding. It is a justication to consider training the dog further only - not a badge of merit, though some foolishly try to use it as such.

 

Whether that sustained interest in herding will result in a useful stockdog takes time and work well beyond a few lessons.

[Sue R]

And when this is used as "proof" of the dog's "herding ability" for breeding decisions (selling puppies) . . .

 

Kim

Of course! Producing puppies (of whatever color ) that "will excel at (you fill in the blanks) and herding!".

 

PS I did improve the grammar in that paragraph, but not until after you posted!

[PSmitty]

I was thinking about this whole discussion last night and came to the conclusion that Kathy's method is probably perfect for breeds of dogs who no longer retain much innate instinct or talent and for poorly-bred border collies who no longer retain much instinct or talent. I dog that doesn't have the desire to actually *work* stock isn't likely to be frustrated by being guided around the stock by its owner, even if the owner doesn't read stock well or has poor timing. As I noted in an earlier post--no harm is done to the handler or the sheep, and if the dog is one who doesn't much care about working either, then probably no harm done there. Kathy herself said she doesn't really need this method for talented dogs.

 

I agree with this, too. Although, I do have a border collie mix that I work with, and even Jack (who is lacking all the right pieces to be a "real" sheepdog) would have been terribly frustrated/bored if we had started him this way, much less worked him like that for 8 lessons. Heck, he wasn't even in the round pen for 8 lessons! I don't want to knock Kathy's methods, I'm surely not experienced enough to contribute to the great discussion the rest of you have had, but I would encourage you, Karrin, to explore other methods & trainers. Just to see for yourself the difference you see in your Jack when he is able to truly work his sheep.

 

I would guess that, if the trainer is totally honest with the owner/handler about their and their dog's accomplishments and potential for advancement, and if the sheep/stock are not being misused, a trainer could ethically continue to work with a student and their dog. All cards on the table, and all honest.

 

I am lucky to work with a trainer like this. I understand Anna's question (and point), but for someone like me, who wants to work with the dogs that I have, I am grateful that there are trainers willing to work with us. She is honest with me and I am honest with myself in seeing my dogs' limitations.

 

Thanks everyone for a great discussion!

[kajarrel]

Sorry, Sue. I didn't use your quote to highlight any errors, but rather to agree that this topic has greater implications -- ethical, etc. I worry that it (the method) also reinforces the idea that "breeding" is not really important if you can "train" any dog to "herd" and the handler plays such a central role in "telling the dog what to do." But this is changing the topic a little so I won't drone on . . .

 

Kim

[Sue R]

I can, as can any other average decent trainer of stockdogs, tell the difference between persistant prey drive and sustained interested in actually herding. It is a justication to consider training the dog further only - not a badge of merit, though some foolishly try to use it as such.

 

Whether that sustained interest in herding will result in a useful stockdog takes time and work well beyond a few lessons.

Certainly. You know the difference and capable trainers do also. Honest and capable evaluators can tell the difference, too. But I wonder how many mediocre and worse dogs do gain their "title" when they really demonstrate no basis for one? And how many owners of that sort of dog really, really think their dog "has it" when it doesn't? Too many, I think.

 

Thank you for clarifying what I wrote because you are right.

[juliepoudrier]

Paula,

I think there's a difference between encouraging someone to work with the dog they have with an honest acknowledgement of its limitations and encouraging someone to work with a dog because it might be able to get a title (and thus sell puppies or otherwise make claims on the abilities of a dog) and of course bring in income.

 

I started with a rescue dog and a second dog who was also essentially a rescue. Neither dog would make it to open, and I was well aware of that, but I still learned a heck of a lot from those two dogs, and we went as far as we could. No one led me to believe that they were anything other than what they exactly were (well, let me clarify that: in one case there was one person who thought the dog could have gone further, but I disagreed and stood my ground even though it made the other person very unhappy, so there's also an element of responsibility from the handler's side as well). If I had thought those dogs had what it takes and that it was somehow me who was failing, there probably would have been a whole lot of frustration. If I had tried other venues where my dogs didn't need to be as talented, maybe I would have gotten sucked into the whole title scheme. But I will say it's a two-way street: The trainer can be as honest about a dog as the day is long, and if the owner doesn't *hear* it, then either the trained just lets them go or perhaps heaves a big sigh and keeps on....

 

I am inclined to work with the dogs I have simply because I'm not one to pass dogs on. If that limits me, then so be it. But I am choosing to work with those dogs with full knowledge of their limitations and no one is leading me to believe they are the next world champion while they hold out their hand for my training dollars.

 

J.

[Little Bo Boop]

It would seem to me that the tall pole in the tent is not so much trying to control an over zealous dog, or a sheep eating machine, but rather the practice, and common place practice, of letting novice/totally clueless in some cases, handlers start green dogs. I think this has been discussed here before, but it's my opinion that not every person is cut out to be a dog trainer. And this is particularly problematic IMHO when you factor in another living creature (the sheep) into the equation. Sure, a novice can have a go at starting an agility dog or dock diving what have you...not much chance of killing a weave pole ;-) punching a hole in the pool ;-) But in the horse world for instance, it's always been a big no no, green horse, green rider/trainer. While there are some exceptions to be sure, I think for the most part 'starting' a dog on stock, should be left up to someone who knows what they're doing. Let the novice watch, learn, maybe practice with a trained dog a little. And I'm not saying this has to go on for a years ;-) but just the initial starting of the dog. Just seems to me that would be a much more sensible route to go for everyone concerned.

 

Betty

[jdarling]

Dog trying to go around the sheep to get to balance?

 

A frustrated dog?

 

the dog sensing that and moving (a bit rashly) to head them, and being prevented, and then moving back to head the ones who his first flurry had turned, and being prevented, and then being "settled" and plodding on

 

Exactly.

 

Someone in the video keeps saying, "Good. Very good." Kathy, I assume that's you. Please tell me why you feel this method is "very good," what it's teaching the dog, and what it's teaching the handler.

[juliepoudrier]

Betty,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I might add that if the newbie dog is thoughtful/sensible, then it probably is okay to let the novice handler get to it fairly quickly, but no newbie dog is going to come here and go into the pen with sheep with anyone other than me (or someone else who has some experience starting dogs).

 

j.

[bcnewe2]

But in the horse world for instance, it's always been a big no no, green horse, green rider/trainer. While there are some exceptions to be sure, I think for the most part 'starting' a dog on stock, should be left up to someone who knows what they're doing

 

For that reason I really appreciate the dog that I started with. She wasn't really a "stock" dog but she was a BC and enabled me to catch this horrid disease of working dogs. She is right next to me on the couch, her lessons in teaching me about working dogs does not go unrewarded. However, it might have been easier had I started with a bit of a better dog, but then....where would that talent have gone? And I don't mean the actual first few times on stock. I did have someone else actually go in with her the first few times (with a line no less)

 

I personally am glad that I started with my own dog, and I'm sure some might say, pity the dog (not being harsh but the green thing) I'm just glad that the dog I was blessed with to start did not have allot of talent to waste on me beginning my stockdog journey.

 

Even though she was not a stellar working dog (doG forbid I sure wasn't a stellar trainer and probably still am not), she was able to teach me allot and she gets all the credit for starting me on this wonderful journey.

 

It's a tough place to be in, wanting to start your own dog and yourself. But it has been done a million times before and look at some of the outcomes, there are miracle stories out there. As long as nothing is abused in the name of work or learning, and there is some sort of progress, I say, it's what it is.

 

I could never have afforded a trained dog when I started, not even a retired one. I was a mom with 3 young kids so money was tight, but I can add, that working my little green dog, gave me a beginning that started a whole new journey which I will forever be grateful for.

 

Some make quick progress, some make slow, but as long as you keep trudging up hill. I say enjoy the trek!

[Stoga]

Great stuff everyone... thanks.

 

While there are some exceptions to be sure, I think for the most part 'starting' a dog on stock, should be left up to someone who knows what they're doing.

 

And, from personal experience, I couldn't agree more with Betty.

[dracina]

Thank you, everyone, for posting your comments. This was a extraordinary thread, long but very informative. I got the answer to my question, although it wasn't the answer I had hoped for at the beginning of the thread. It turned out not to be such a "basic question", after all, but I am so happy that I asked it. I am now much wiser- lighter in the pocketbook, yes- but much wiser.

 

And with the minimum amount of snark !

 

Karrin

 

PS Hopefully everyone has had a chance to say what they think, because even I am getting sick of seeing "Starting a Dog: Line or no line?" pop up!