Starting a dog

[dracina]

Hello all,

 

"My dogs and I are beginners"

 

This is a line from the original post and the one that I will relate my answer to. If you have well bred dogs, they instinctively know more about working sheep than you do and more than you may ever know. Putting and keeping them on a line is necessary for your benefit, not theirs. It gives you more time to think. I think we can all agree that Bobby's reasons would be different than this person's. Whether it's one I've raised or one I have for training, the first time I take it to sheep I put it on a line...for the sheep's benefit. Once I know that the dog will not try to hurt my sheep, it's off the line and usually out of the round pen into the big field. There I use my voice and body position to shape it's instinct, which is to head the sheep to some extent, depending on the dog.

 

If a dog has good balance and wants to go to 12 O'clock to my 6 O'clock on sheep, then I have something to work with. Everything that I teach a dog is based on his desire to do that, even wearing and driving. After a dog perfects balance to some extent, I begin to teach it how to wear, then drive, and all I need to get to that point besides balance is a good down, stand or steady, depending on the dog, and correction that's appropriate for that dog.

 

The only other time I may use a line is to help a determined dog learn to drive. Rather than continually correct it to keep it on the same side of the sheep as I am, I put them on a line until they're comfortable with the concept.

 

If it is a trained sheepdog that you want, the best suggestion I can give you is to get some help from someone who has been successful training sheepdogs. Not someone successful with cow dogs, not someone who calls themselves a trainer, but has never tested their ability against successful trainers and not someone who participates in a discussion board with no other credentials. I'm not referring to any real person here, just making a suggestion.

 

Cheers all

 

Hi Amelia,

 

I agree with everything that you have said here, so thank you for your input. I do want to add that I have no idea if my dogs are "well-bred" or not, because they are both rescues.

 

Also, as far as your last paragraph goes, the trainer I have now is successful training sheepdogs, does not train cow dogs, regularly tests her abilities against other successful trainers, and her credentials are well-known. I am not questioning her, but what other training options are available, and whether or not this training method is appropriate for me and my dogs. It is not a slam against my instructor by any means, as I have no idea whether or not this method works. She is very successful and is an excellent handler with her own dogs. I also know to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, and I like to think that I am pretty smart about gauging who's ideas are appropriate and who's are a bunch of bunk.

 

That being said, the video I posted was of Jack's 8th time on sheep, my 12th, not the first or second. That is why I am questioning the forum: as I said, I noticed that the method we are using is so different than what else I have seen, heard, and read (not just on this forum), I wanted to weigh the pros and cons.

 

What you have posted is very helpful, and I appreciate that you have taken the time to reply to me, because I know that beginner questions can sometimes be redundant and too basic. So thank you!

 

Karrin

[Denise Wall]

Sorry, Denise- I think I got you confused with someone else that had a link to a video.

 

No problem. I'm not emotional over it anyway. The videos or the pictures. It is what it is. There's so much media of all kinds out there for free anymore. People watch what interests them, and for only as long as it holds their interest. YouTube started this "insight" thing that showed some stats on your videos so you could get some feedback on interest level of the viewers among other things. Basically, even in the few hits I was getting, people only watched for a few seconds and then moved on to something more interesting to them. It's just the world we live in today.

 

To bring this back on topic, most border collie trainers I know use lines here and there, depending on the dog and trainer. Just not the way you're describing.

[Little Bo Boop]

It seems to me that there is a vast difference in the use of the line or cord by the OP and for lack of a better term the Bobby D method (at least that's how it appears to me) The OP seems to be utilizing a rather heavy rope, and appears to be in total control, contact with the dog at all times, the dog is not free to move about, use/find/explore/discover his natural instincts, and is basically on a leash, I mean why not just put him outside the pen ;-) (as we've seen in some vids) with the sheep inside, makes about as much sense IMHO. The way I've seen the cord/line used (by what I consider very good handler/trainers) the cord is very light and very long. The dog is not really restrained by the cord, but rather free to move about his/her stock. The handler either doesn't have a hand on the line, or if they do, it's way far down the line, and they only make contact with the dog when a correction is needed. I'm not really a proponent of 'the line' for dog training, but I might play around with it in some certain instances...you never know ;-) but if I did it would certainly not be (no offense) the way the OP is using it in her video, I just can't see what possible good could be accomplished by that method of training.

 

Betty

[Amelia]

Hi Dracina. I apologize. I could not find a link to your video before I posted before, so I tried harder, then watched it. It appears to me that what you are doing there is neither hurting nor helping the dog in the video. If I had to pick one, I would say it is helping the dog get used to being in the presence of livestock. A good thing.

 

There were a couple times where the dog made a little lunge to get to the stock and you restrained it. After the second restraint, it momentarily lost interest and turned its head away from the sheep. Dog thinks "get stock" handler says "no" for the second time, dog becomes confused. I always want my dogs thinking "get stock" but my way at first, then our way once trained. I never do anything to cause confusion about getting stock. To me that is the basic premise on which everything else is built and the single most important job for a working border collie. Border collies have been selectively bred for centuries to gather.

 

In the video, your dog seems pretty quiet and calm, and I would not hesitate to take it off the line, but I'm not a beginner and have timing. As a beginner, I would suggest you at least drop it with your goal being to encourage the dog to circle the sheep, not run through them or jump in the middle of them. Once you accomplish that, you can move on to something else, like getting it to stop on balance, or turn onto its sheep on balance and fetch a bit. I'll suggest that initially you will be learning more than the dog. That's the reason why I encourage new handlers to get an experienced dog that will train them before they try to train a dog. But that's not your situation. You rescued (stand and cheer!) and obviously love your dog.

 

In my previous post I assure you I was not making any assumptions about your trainer. Don't even know (don't want to) who it is. How could I? And, in your initial post you did not ask for training suggestions, just the question whether we use a line and how. So, the short answer is; I do initially and sometimes to help teach the drive, but otherwise no.

 

Cheers to you and best wishes for you and your dogs.

[Shoofly]

That being said, the video I posted was of Jack's 8th time on sheep, my 12th, not the first or second. That is why I am questioning the forum: as I said, I noticed that the method we are using is so different than what else I have seen, heard, and read (not just on this forum), I wanted to weigh the pros and cons.

 

Wow, i think i'd be upset if i'd paid for 8 lessons with my dog and he hasn't even gone around sheep yet. After 8 lessons most dogs, with the more traditional methods, can hold sheep to their person and walk them all over the place pretty easily, without too much muss and fuss.

[Sue R]

I did not notice that you said it was Jack's 8th lesson and your 12th. As Robin said, I would expect a lot more accomplished by that time, and a lot more trust in your dog.

 

But, since I am not familiar with this method (having never heard or seen anything quite like it with a reputable trainer - and I am not implying that your trainer is not, I don't have a clue), I can't say what the long-term effects would be, but I don't expect them to be very positive.

 

I think there is more than one way to train, different approaches will suit different handlers and dogs and goals better or worse, and one needs to employ the techniques that produce desirable results.

[Diana A]

I'm still kind of a newbe with stock dogs, but I've done some of my own hunting around with investigating different training methods, so I have some idea of where the original poster is coming from. So for what it's worth . . .

 

The question to ask your trainer is, does she herself start dogs in this way and follow the method all the way through the training? If she's doing something different herself than what she has her students do, then the real thing to look at isn't how the trainer does with her own dogs, but how do her other students (who are learning with this method) do with their dogs? Has this trainer consistently produced students who can successfully run a dog in Open following this training method? I think it would help for the original poster to go to some trials and watch good dogs work, and then look at the work of other students training with the instructor's methods, and make her own choice about what she wants to see in her own dogs. If there are any clinics in the area that you could audit, to get a chance to watch more traditional methods in action with dogs of various levels, that would be beneficial also. I think I saw in one of your posts you are from around the Chicago area - there is a Jack Knox clinic and a Kathy Knox clinic coming up in July/August that might be helpful to audit (I think there's more info at wwsda.com, and sign up for Jack Knox can be found at bigyellowboots.net). Assuming this is something similar to Marc Christopher's methods, he frequently does clinics in the midwest area so it would be helpfu to audit one of those also so you can get a better idea of how it works and make your own comparison. Your instructor might be able to help you find information on clinics in the area.

 

I'm not sure if this method is meant to be Marc Christopher or something else devised by your instructor. What I saw on the video didn't quite look like Marc's method in so far as only the line was used (no other means of apply pressure such as body position or a stock stick) and the rope was kept tighter more often than what I've seen with Marc's method. Marc's method is a basic pressure/release method, with the line being another tool to apply or release pressure (the line is wrapped around the dog's body and can be tightened to produce pressure without actually pulling the dog in any particular direction, then instantly released the second the dog even looks or steps in the correct direction). The line is also used to prevent the dog from avoiding a correction and rewarding itself with the sheep inappropriately. The dog learns to yield to the handler's pressure because there's no way to get around it - the only way the dog gets what he wants (the sheep) is by doing what the handler wants. The line also slows things down so it's less exciting for the dog (allowing the dog to take the time to think and process what's going on) and gives the handler time to see and react to what's happening and be more precise in timing of applying or releasing pressure. The way I've seen it done, a mixture of body/stick/positional pressure and line pressure is used and unless the dog is diving into the sheep or the handler is trying to help the dog get through some particular exercise where it needs some extra help from the line, the line is often dragging on the ground as soon as the dog is ready for it, but the handler keeps things set up in a way that they can get to the line quickly if needed to apply a correction. The dog isn't allowed to get all the way around the sheep in the beginning simply because (1) the process of the handler following along to keep in position to make a correction causes the balance point to keep moving and most beginner dogs will make a mistake before they ever reach balance even if the handler does stop to allow the dog to catch up to the balance point, and (2) the line becomes pretty much useless when there are sheep between the handler and the dog so until the dog is responding appropriately to body pressure and has the right mindset of staying calm, the handler and dog work mostly on the same side of the sheep. I've seen Marc work dogs a few times and he uses a mixture of short drives and allowing the dog flank around - the dog can continue on towards balance as long as he's going correctly, but the second he starts to lean in on the sheep or turns the circle into a spiral, the dog is stopped, and some form of pressure is applied until the dog corrects his mistake by bending back out and softening his approach. I know Marc doesn't tend to do much in the way of fetching except for what you'd get after an outrun (no walking around with sheep following you). The method definitely is a lot easier on the sheep (no running, biting, etc), but I have seen some dogs who just get very stressed by it, so like others have said, it's a matter of seeing what works for you and your dog.

 

Problems I've seen with this method are that the handler needs good stock sense, a good feel for what the dog is seeing and responding to, and the right sheep and right size training area so that you can avoid frustrating the dog by keeping them off the sheep too much or allowing the sheep to escape all the time. Also it seems to be a natural human tendency, once we get a leash in our hands, to guide the dog where we want him to go instead of allowing him to make choices and using the line to allow or correct the choices. In traditional training methods the sheep to some degree will tell the dog what's right or wrong, but when you put a line on the dog to control things, the handler becomes mostly resposible for communicating right and wrong, so the handler better have a really good idea of when that is and be really consistent with communicating that to the dog. I do know of a few Open dogs trained using at least partially Marc's methods (although I'm not entirely sure that's what we're seeing on the video from the original poster). On the other hand, traditional methods have produced the majority of top working dogs and the breed was developed around that method of training.

[Amelia]

I didn't think about it before, but I agree with Robin about being farther along by lesson 8. What I saw on your video is what I might expect from lesson 1. So, I went back and looked at my Real Time Canine digest covering lesson 8 to see where Star was on that day. I have only used a line on him for a few minutes on his first day. With an assist from me using body pressure, he was flanking in both directions, making small gathers, fetching with a lie down and had a solid recall to come off his stock.

 

Cheers all,

[dracina]

Hi Diana:

 

First, that was an awesome post, so thank you for taking the time to explain all of that.

 

The line is also used to prevent the dog from avoiding a correction and rewarding itself with the sheep inappropriately. The dog learns to yield to the handler's pressure because there's no way to get around it - the only way the dog gets what he wants (the sheep) is by doing what the handler wants. The line also slows things down so it's less exciting for the dog (allowing the dog to take the time to think and process what's going on) and gives the handler time to see and react to what's happening and be more precise in timing of applying or releasing pressure.

[...]a basic pressure/release method, with the line being another tool to apply or release pressure

 

I believe that I know what my trainer's overall training philosohy is, and I do think that this is similar. However, it would be unfair of me to try to state her philosophy second-hand, since I am sure that it would not be adequately presented. I do know that this is what I feel that I am being instructed to do with my dog.

 

The dog isn't allowed to get all the way around the sheep in the beginning simply because (1) the process of the handler following along to keep in position to make a correction causes the balance point to keep moving and most beginner dogs will make a mistake before they ever reach balance even if the handler does stop to allow the dog to catch up to the balance point, and (2) the line becomes pretty much useless when there are sheep between the handler and the dog so until the dog is responding appropriately to body pressure and has the right mindset of staying calm, the handler and dog work mostly on the same side of the sheep.

 

Again, this sounds close to what I think is happening here.

 

The question to ask your trainer is, does she herself start dogs in this way and follow the method all the way through the training? If she's doing something different herself than what she has her students do, then the real thing to look at isn't how the trainer does with her own dogs, but how do her other students (who are learning with this method) do with their dogs? Has this trainer consistently produced students who can successfully run a dog in Open following this training method?

 

This is excellent advice, and I take reponsibility for not asking these vital questions. I will definitely ask now.

 

I'm still kind of a newbe with stock dogs, but I've done some of my own hunting around with investigating different training methods, so I have some idea of where the original poster is coming from. So for what it's worth . . .

 

I think that you have done a fantastic job; Your post is thoughtful and knowledgeable. Thank you!

 

Karrin

[Pippin's person]

This has been an interesting thread to read, particularly because, like others, I've not seen the method shown in the video before. Of course, it's always hard to evaluate things over the Internet, etc., but do I understand correctly that after 8 (weekly?) lessons, your pup hasn't been allowed to go around the sheep and bring them to you? That might be something worth asking your trainer about to get a sense of how s/he believes things will progress.

 

I know it's hard when you're new to all of this because there is so much to learn and you can't always evaluate the methods, etc. Like Sue said, part of what you are doing is developing trust of you in your dog. I've been told by different handlers that the foundation of that trust is obedience (e.g. lie down when you ask for it and ask for it when you want it) and it's hard to know how obedient your pup will be when you are controlling his movements with a line.

 

Thanks for posting your questions, thoughts and replies about this.

[dracina]

Hi Robin:

 

Yes, Jack and I have had eight lessons (4 weekly lessons last spring/summer; and 4 weekly/semi-weekly lessons this spring summer). I also had four lessons last year with my other dog, Marcus. We have eight more weekly lessons (four w/Jack;four w/ Marcus) left before we decide what's next. All have been using this method, all with the same trainer.

 

You and Sue are definitely correct that it does have so much to do with developing a trust with your dog (although when I read it, I thought that Sue meant that the trainer wanted to see if she could trust Jack off leash!), and I do think that regardless of the method, herding has really strengthened the bond between my boys and me.

 

Best to you and your crew!

Karrin

[Eileen Stein]

Karrin, I don't want you to identify your trainer, and I don't want to seem to be belaboring this, but when you say she is an Open handler, do you mean that she is competitive in USBCHA Open trials? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

 

I don't think "using a long line" is the issue. I have watched how Bobby Dalziel uses a line at a training clinic, and I've seen other good trainers use a line for specific purposes. But I've never seen a recognized trainer use a line in the way it's being used in this video -- walking a dog on a leash around a small ring behind sheep, a dog who is in its 8th lesson and has never been allowed to go around sheep. I just can't see what the point of what I watched could possibly be.

 

A couple of times you have talked about a beginning dog "just fetching" or said something to suggest that a dog driving is moving sheep while a dog fetching is not ("ability to move the stock, not just fetch"). I'm kind of wondering why you have such a low opinion of the skills involved in gathering, and apparently think driving is so much more key (or difficult)? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

Finally, a couple of earlier posts referred to the book Top Trainers Talk About Starting a Sheepdog. The book is just what it sounds like -- interviews with 17 top trainers in the US and the UK who tell how they go about starting their dogs and the early stages of training. I think you might find it interesting -- you can order it from Outrun Press.

[PennyT]

The lower the confidence level, the less likely it is that the method will work. Why? Because Jack wants to be a good dog and he is learning that good dogs don’t leave the handler’s side.

“After reading what everyone has to say, I feel confident that the line method is feasible option for at least one of my dogs (Jack, in the video). Jack has a lot of natural ability, but lacks confidence. I do think that this method will work for him because it is showing him what to do right, rather than make corrections.”

I missed the video, too, the first time around. It’s the usenet format that is throwing me, and maybe I don’t have the time set up right for the board settings so I just saw it. Denise, should put those videos of May back up or at the very least someone who watches YouTube (I don’t) might make a list of worthwhile clips for a sticky.

Kirrin, I can’t remember whether you mentioned your goals. Did you?

Anyway, there are two situations in which I can see this sad and silly method resulting in a stockdog the handler is happy with. Note that I did *not* say producing a good or fully trained dog. First, is for the owner of cattle who refuses to do anything but drive, takes the heading out of the dog, and keeps the dog behind. There are still lots of people who use a border collie on cattle and work the dog that way. These people don’t get the best from talented dogs but do get the result they are after: no heading. It’s an old-fashioned approach that has never died out. I could quote several 19th century tracts which describe training this way and stress not letting the dog get to the head. It’s a quick training scheme for a busy stockman who isn’t willing or doesn’t how to train a dog correctly but is at least willing to put in a bit of time teaching something.

Second, you could work a dog this way for some of the titling systems. If the heading can be brought forward again even slightly, which doesn’t always happen as was the case with the dog Anna had in, you might do okay. Eventually you’ll end up wondering why you can’t get farther along. You’ll be thrilled at first because you’ll get a few titles for walking around with your dog at side and some sheep present.

If you have other training options available to you, look into them. All of the beginning handlers who spend years letting their dogs fetch to them around a field are light years ahead of this system. Using the line this way would be okay the first time or two to see what the dog was going to do.

Ask yourself what will happen outside of that pen when you get into a field or even a larger pen and have sheep take off? What will you do?

Penny

[dracina]

Hi Eileen,

 

Karrin, I don't want you to identify your trainer, and I don't want to seem to be belaboring this, but when you say she is an Open handler, do you mean that she is competitive in USBCHA Open trials? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

She is competitive in USBCHA Open trials, and has competed at Nationals.

 

I don't think "using a long line" is the issue. I have watched how Bobby Dalziel uses a line at a training clinic, and I've seen other good trainers use a line for specific purposes. But I've never seen a recognized trainer use a line in the way it's being used in this video -- walking a dog on a leash around a small ring behind sheep, a dog who is in its 8th lesson and has never been allowed to go around sheep. I just can't see what the point of what I watched could possibly be.

 

This seems to be what the majority of sheepdog handlers who belong to this forum think. This is why I asked: the way my dogs and I are being trained is so different from what I've seen, read, etc., I want to see what other respected handlers think so I can know my options. I know how a dog is started traditionally, and I wanted to see if anyone else uses and/or has had success using a line so that I can be aware of my options.

 

This is my first time handling a dog (well, in herding), and I know that I will have many, many more years (hopefully) of learning and working ahead. I want to know as much as possible about sheepherding so that I can make the best choices for me and my dogs.

 

And again, It was not my intention to publicly "call out" or humiliate my instructor, I really did not realize that there would be so many responses to my question, and that most repsonses would be negative. After I asked the question to this forum, I also emailed my instructor, explained what/why I asked this question, and invited her to participate in the discussion. I do not know or not if she read the thread.

 

A couple of times you have talked about a beginning dog "just fetching" or said something to suggest that a dog driving is moving sheep while a dog fetching is not ("ability to move the stock, not just fetch"). I'm kind of wondering why you have such a low opinion of the skills involved in gathering, and apparently think driving is so much more key (or difficult)? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

I think that maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough, so I am sorry for that. I do NOT have a low opinion of fetching at all, nor do I think that driving is more important. I think that BOTH are equally important. I apologize if I gave the impression that is how I felt, because it is not. Nor do I know if this is how my trainer feels. I think that when I said "just fetching", I was comparing it to "just driving".

 

I want to make it clear that I am NOT a proponent of using the line, nor an I an opponent. When I asked the original question, I really wanted to see what could be the pros and cons of this method, and know my options for other methods.

 

Finally, a couple of earlier posts referred to the book Top Trainers Talk About Starting a Sheepdog. The book is just what it sounds like -- interviews with 17 top trainers in the US and the UK who tell how they go about starting their dogs and the early stages of training. I think you might find it interesting -- you can order it from Outrun Press.

 

I do have this book, and enjoy it very much, so thank you for reminding me about it. I will have to read it again, using what I have learned from this thread.

 

This forum has given me the ability to make a much more informed decision about how to train my dogs, among many other things. I think that the objective of this forum is to be kind of a community of learners, and I think it meets that goal admirably. I am grateful for all the help that I have recieved here.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I have read and watched loads of sheepherding things, and I have been studying it for about a year. But there is no replacement for actually being able to learn "best practice" by doing, and discussing what and how you are doing it with your peers from all over.

 

By knowing all of the available options, I can make a better decision about how to proceed. So thank you to everyone who gave their opinions on this topic!

 

Karrin

[dracina]

Hi Penny:

 

Ask yourself what will happen outside of that pen when you get into a field or even a larger pen and have sheep take off? What will you do?

Penny

 

That is one of the thoughts I had that lead me to ask the original question. I do not know what they will do, which pretty much defeats the purpose of 8 weeks of herding training if I actually have no idea how my dog will react to working sheep! Thank you for mentioning that.

 

Karrin

[stockdogranch]

Penny makes an excellent point:

The lower the confidence level, the less likely it is that the method will work.

This was exactly the case with the dog I mentioned--she very much wanted to be a "good girl," and did not have a lot of confidence. I agree that a bolder type of dog may have given going around the sheep a try, and would have been rewarded for doing so. We could then have moved on.

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Dracina,

Have you seen the video Laura Hicks posted of her 14-year-old son starting his young dog? It's near the bottom of the first page of her thread in the gallery "Moving ewes and lambs." You might enjoy seeing it.

 

J.

[Caroline Reichard]

Denise, should put those videos of May back up or at the very least someone who watches YouTube (I don’t) might make a list of worthwhile clips for a sticky.

 

I'll go out on a limb and post a link to my youngest dog when he was a little farther along than 12 lessons but still in a round pen. Roy was pretty easy to train, but I am not an Open handler, so there is none of that Open Magic here. It started by being all about heading the sheep, and I used no line.

 

 

[PennyT]

"[T]here is none of that Open Magic here."

 

You have to be pulling our legs. Unless you edited out or neglected to include unsettling portions that dog is coming on.

 

I'd be jumping up and clicking my heels then reminding myself not to blow it and scratching an imaginary hairshirt over getting the progress/development just right.

 

Penny

[Caroline Reichard]

"[T]here is none of that Open Magic here."

 

You have to be pulling our legs. Unless you edited out or neglected to include unsettling portions that dog is coming on.

 

I'd be jumping up and clicking my heels then reminding myself not to blow it and scratching an imaginary hairshirt over getting the progress/development just right.

 

Penny

 

You're very kind, Penny. The dog may very well be magic; the handler certainly is not.

 

There's no editing, that's just the way Roy is. (I could no more edit a video than pilot a rocket ship, and it took me three days of trying just to post that footage to YouTube.) I did get some really great help from a well known Open handler for the first 3 or 4 times he went out to sheep, and from then on he has been just as you see. The help, BTW, involved very quiet sheep, a very small pen, and a very calm introduction to heading and controlling sheep in a very relaxed way.

 

(And yes, I am still jumping up and clicking my heels. We entered our first Novice trial this spring, and I was very proud of him.)

[Debbie Meier]

Anna asked about us establishing the use of the line and the method in which we use it in our program for our ACDs', yes and no, we came around to it due to not being successful utilizing other suggestions and advice, we have made gains with our acds using the line, I have to use it more with them then the border collies, they need more help holding a correct flank, they so badly forget that they are suppose to be flanking and "accidently" slice, which eventually turns into a drive and then esculates into a chase when they "forget" that it is their job to also control the sheep not just accelerate them. (which means I also use that line as one way to remind them to pace early on). If a dog has good feel, moves off pressure properly and respects their livestock the line just drags along and is there if you need it to help the dog through a concept you are trying to teach.

 

The goal is to be able to drop that line as soon as I don't need it, I may subsitute manualling rating the dog with a growl, or use the cord to stop them with a there or lie down command. Will my dogs still be on a cord after 8 lessons, propably not, unless there was a sticking point, like a dog that just resists walking in, or refuses to flank off balance. If the dog still requires the cord to prevent it from just going out and aggressing sheep after 8 lessons I ask myself two things, the first; Have I failed at teaching the dog anything, then I ask why, have I failed at getting the dog in the right mindset to learn or do I just not understand what I am teaching. The second; Is the dog lacking in the biddibilty department or the stock sense department. I think nine times out of ten (with new handlers), the dog is not progressing due to the handler not understanding what they are trying to teach or how to teach it along with a failure to handle to dog in between the lessons in a manner that will be consistent with the lesson. An example is a friend of mine that works her dog with me, she lets her dog pull on the leash and allows herself to be drug around when she not training, she repeats commands, gets tuned out and ignored on a daily bases, until she changes those behaivors and the relationship between her and her dog away from the practice pen she's not going to progress, nor is the dog. She tries to trial, but the dog runs off and does as he wishes with the sheep, he continues to do what he thinks is right and never can learn how to do more. She and those watching can blame the method of training for her lack of progress, but it's not at fault, and the dog is trainable.

 

Just another comment about utilizing another trainers method, Bobby D, Marc C and any other trainers that new handlers are trying to follow are the masters of their methods, the best way to learn the proper use of those methods are to go straight to the master. Trying to learn from a student or a person that has taken bits and pieces of those methods is going to give you something totally different, a "bastardization" of the masters work, for lack of a better term. That new method may work better for some, it may not, but it has morphed into a new method. Also, some may be able to use a method learned from another trainer and be very successful with their own dogs, but they may not be able to teach it effectively to others.

 

I'm not going to around much, tons of bookwork to get completed from the weekend.

 

Deb

[kathykawalec]

"CONNECTED HERDING" DEFINED

 

Good morning all! The original poster of this topic was referring to her time spent with me as her herding coach, so I thought I would take some time to offer a brief description of my philosphy and method. I have skimmed over this discussion this morning, after my (former) student sent me a message about the lively discussion happening...and lots of great comments and questions!

 

So first, my credentials as related to this topic:

Yes, I am an open USBCHA handler, starting with my first border collie who I raised, trained and handled myself from novice on up to Open, and who I qualified for the finals her 1st and 2nd year in open, in addition to her qualifying for the Midwest Regional championships and making it into the finals round. She had to be retired at 8 due to illness, and I lost her last year at 13, sadly. She was a great teacher and friend. I have qualified an open dog for the finals nearly every year since my first. Currently I trial a 12 yr old open dog, with about 25 pts this year, and a just turned 3 yr old open (rescue) dog who has about 7 pts, with about 5 trials under her belt including open at the Bluegrass. I also have two nursery dogs who are qualified for the finals that I bred, raised, trained and handle myself. I am self employed as a trainer, coach, and teacher in herding, dog training, holistic animal behavior, a life and business coach, as well as being an intuitive. Before border collies I trained and showed quarter horses, as well as bred and started thoroughbred race horses. I am far from being a "big hat" expert, but I am a devoted teacher, learner and student, with a life purpose of bringing more peace and compassion to our world. I have worked with top experts in the fields of herding, animal behavior, horse training, coaching, teaching, and more. I am a certified Telllington TTouch practitioner.

 

Second: The purpose of my method:

Frustrated with the challenge of teaching fledgling handlers with their raw dogs using more traditional methods, I began to think about and develop an outline for creating an environment optimal for learning. It was becoming very clear that quick keen dogs running around sheep who are running away from the dogs created an environment that made it impossible for students to learn. I could easily work the dogs quietly, calmly with no yelling, stick wailing etc...and demonstrate to the students how to make the moves so very important to helping the dog. But, as most of you remember, there is way too much happening way too fast for a newbie to make any moves at all. So, how to change this up became my obsession.

 

The second part of my purpose was to find ways to communicate with these highly sensitive and intelligent dogs (of all herding breeds) without using force, domination tactics, intimidation, fear, yelling, hitting etc. In other words, I wanted to teach these dogs using good moves, good timing, the sheep, the relationship between human and dog, good body language and pressure/release...using a "corrective" voice and body language only as necessary to establish clear boundaries. And, I wanted to teach others to do the same.

 

Third: My method defined:

-use the concept of Back Chaining

-keep the handlers and dogs calm, and in a thinking, focused, learning state of mind

-teach the dogs to be keen and mindful right off the bat

-teach the dogs to trust and listen to their handlers for direction, while controlling the movement of the sheep.

-teach the dogs the basic skills of flanking, lifting, walking in, stopping and calling off

-teach the handlers the skills of reading the sheep and making decisions on where to position their dogs to control the movement of the sheep, while communicating effectively to their dogs.

-teach the dogs patience and self control

-build confidence and leadership in the handler

-build confidence, leadership and bidibility in the dog

-nurture problem solving skills in both the handler and the dog

 

Now, the only way I could think of to do all of this was to use a long line...and a drew back to my work with horses, teaching them to drive, and lunge. And, then I thought about the dogs and the sheep...thinking that although the gather is a very important part of the equation...most of the work the dog does is actually behind the sheep, pushing them along in the desired direction, either fetching or driving. To the dog, is should look the same: I'm behind sheep, making sure they keep moving forward, directly away from me, making deliberate moves to ensure the path. So, OK: cool! We will try this in a driving type of situation at first, and the handler will make moves as if they were the dog, encouraging their dog to move with them, mirroring behavior that the dogs can model. This is well established as one way that dogs easily learn. This gives the handler a "dogs eye" view of the sheep, so that they and their dog are on exactly the same page...and working together in partnership to control the movement of the sheep.

 

So, we wrap the line into a harness to keep pressure off the dogs neck, and to create a nice feel...and work the line like reins on a horse, communicating to the dog thru the line, body language and the sheep. The line is never to be used as a correction device, and even if the dogs lunge out at the sheep, the handler is to be flexible and rubber-like, and put the dogs right back to working properly. We do not use the line to pull the dog around, rather more like a safety line, and a tool for talking to the dog. The handlers body language and verbal encouragement help the dog to rehearse their skill set.

 

So, now I put some calm and savvy school sheep into a small pen to make it easier to control them, and we teach the dogs and handlers to seek out the bubble of space around the sheep, and to work on the edge of the bubble, flanking properly, pushing into the bubble at just the right place to keep the sheep moving around the perimeter of the pen....not letting them stop, and not letting them run away. Those of you who watched the video submitted by 'dracina' may or may not have been able to discern the details of the fact that Jack WAS working to control the path of the sheep, flanking nicely, and walking in with help from his handler. The sheep, left to their own devices, would be standing in a bunch at the gate, or running and folding back around the dog to get back there, unless the dog is taking control. The dog must learn to lift and push on them, or they will not move. So, what you see is the result of 8 lessons (spread out over a year, I might add) where the handler and dog have learned how to partner together to accomplish this nicely. Jack is taking verbal cues most of the time, with little help from his handler, and they are ready to start to learn to work with the handler as the leader of the sheep, and the dog staying out on the bubble, away from the handler. This part will be so much easier now that the handler understands about the flight zone bubble, can recognize the quality of a good flank and where the dog needs to be to control the path of the sheep. And the dog, although he hasn't learned to gather yet, knows how to control the path of the sheep, knows how to lift sheep, how to take them off a fence quietly, how to flank around to turn their direction, and move them anywhere he wants. Now all we have to do is put all the pieces together and teach him to flank around and gather.

 

At first, there may be some frustration on the part of the dog, because they want to run circles around the sheep, or chase them, or hold them on the fence, depending upon their natural inclination, but they quickly learn in the first session, that they can control the sheep while they move, using the above mentioned skills. The dog may be sometimes frustrated while the handler learns the moves necessary to help the dog. BUT, it is nothing like the frustration dogs feel when they are racing around the sheep, trying to get to balance with a handler who has no clue where to be or how to help the dog get control of the sheep. And...the dogs settle down very, very quickly because they soon love the feeling of control over the sheep...and their frustration vanishes for the most part. The handlers learn very quickly as well, because all is quiet and calm and they can think, see and process information. By the end of one weekend clinic, I have the handlers and dogs moving the sheep in patterns, on and off the fence, happily and calmly. At first, I teach the handlers to allow their dogs natural moves to override, so that if a dog likes to hold the sheep against the fence, we allow him to do that frequently. If a dog likes to flank around to head off the sheep, we allow him to do that frequently. If a dog likes to hold a line and push the sheep around, we let him do that a lot. Then, we gradually shape that natural inclination to include all of the necessary elements of flanking and pushing in a line and holding etc. I often use a clicker to help identify the good moves of the dog, which helps the handler to learn to recognize a good move and a not so good move.

 

There are many factors that contribute to the speed of progress that a team makes, the main one being natural aptitude. The great thing about this system is that herding dogs and handlers of (almost) any aptitude can learn how to herd. The more brilliant teams progress much faster than the teams who have less natural ability. The next one being the type of relationship that exists between dog and handler in life. If there is no leadership and no boundaries from the handler, than this process is much slower, because it has to be learned in the context of sheep herding, and slowly integrated into a new way of living.

 

And, to be clear: this does not remove the excitement that happens when the dog is working off the line in the beginning of that stage, because again, this is new unchartered territory for both the dog and handler, and so thinking and focus decline dramatically, but it IS more easily recovered because of the solid foundation that has been established. What I have found over the last couple of years of teaching with this system that is evolving...is to go very slow in the beginning with the incremental skill building, and the transition to offline goes much more smoothly and calmly. When I shorten the time spent on the foundation, these new handlers are just too confused and uncertain about the moves, and the dog is left without useful information.

 

 

Finally: How do I teach my own dogs?

Whether it is my own dogs, or I'm working with a more experienced handler who has good timing, knows sheep, knows how to handle a dog, I use an abbreviated version of the full method used with newbies. I want my dogs to learn that we are working when we step into a field or pen with sheep, and I want them to tap into their natural flanks and walking in. So, I will take them in on a line and work for 5-10 minutes, helping them to flank properly...and to walk in nicely, and to stop. If they are calm and thinking (which they usually are) I will drop the line when they are making a good move and just start working them from there. If they get excited or I can see they are about to loose their heads, I simply pick up the line and show them again and drop it again. I keep the sessions very short, and start the sessions this way, lessening the time spent on the line each time. If I have a dog with some type of issue, (like I do currently with a new rescue dog that I am starting), I may only do line work for a few sessions, or longer, until I feel we are partnered and the dog will allow me to help it make good moves.

 

 

Closing comments:

 

As with any revolutionary method in the history of humans on earth, there is much misunderstanding, suspicion and great discomfort in exploring the unknown...humans rarely will step out of their comfort zone willingly, and will work hard to convince others in their community to stay there with them. That's just the way it is. Fortunately, we also have a history of innovators, inventors and free thinkers who are compelled to seek a better way.

 

I have been around long enough, and have had enough discussions to be quite familiar with the debate..and the pros and cons of starting a dog on a long line. The main debate typically centers around the fact that trainers that use a line to start dogs keeps the dog from working and learning effectively. The trainers that I have personally seen, or have had discussions with their (former) students about, that use a line, DO often keep a dog from working, and use the line as a correction device instead of a teaching tool, as I do. And, I absolutely do not like those methods, or anything about it. I have NOT modeled my method around any existing trainer who uses a line. Although it sounds like there are some folks using a line in a really great way, similar to me, after reading the posts here. I HAVE used my lessons learned from some of the great masters in our field from around the world, and it is upon their shoulders that I stand. None of them have used a line to start dogs, other than the usual dragging a cord to catch up a youngster.

 

The goal of my "connected herding" system is to use good stock sense, the dog's natural abilities, positive reinforcement, and teach the handler to read the sheep, effectively communicate with the dog and allow the dog's skills to naturally develop...and allow the dog to work, controlling the sheep, as the dog and handler learn together. To teach respectful partnership between dog and handler and use proven and sound teaching and coaching principles that allows both the novice handler and the novice dog to actually learn while the brain is in a state capable of receiving and processing information.

 

This has been a really long post...but I hope I have answered most of the questions posed, and I do hope that I have inspired some new thinking about how we teach new and eager handlers and these amazing dogs. And..maybe inspired just a bit more peace in the world!

 

OK - out to train dogs...

Kathy

[dracina]

Thank you, Kathy, for explaining your philosophy. As we both stated, you have a very long record of success with your own dogs, and I wish you nothing but the best in the future.

 

As everyone has mentioned, each person has their own method of training, and their own beliefs. I know that without actually seeing an entire lesson that you instruct, it is hard for people to fully understand what you are trying to teach. Which, by the way, is very respectful, peaceful, natural and intuitive.

 

That being said, it will not be for most people. If you truly believe in your method, which I think that you do, it is necessary to explain why you think it works to your peers. I know, since you are a supporter of continuous learning, that you understand that, as well. I do think that you have an uphill battle. As Julie said previously, traditional and popular training methods are that way because they tend to work, and are proven.

 

I am happy that you explained your philosophy, and best of luck to you in the future!

 

Karrin

[Caroline Reichard]

"CONNECTED HERDING" DEFINED

 

Good morning all! The original poster of this topic was referring to her time spent with me as her herding coach,

 

Thanks for posting, Kathy. This is your website, yes? It mights be helpful for other folks to look at it, too.

 

 

http://www.dancinghearts.org/cms/content/view/13/79/

[kathykawalec]

As everyone has mentioned, each person has their own method of training, and their own beliefs. I know that without actually seeing an entire lesson that you instruct, it is hard for people to fully understand what you are trying to teach. Which, by the way, is very respectful, peaceful, natural and intuitive.

 

That being said, it will not be for most people. If you truly believe in your method, which I think that you do, it is necessary to explain why you think it works to your peers. I know, since you are a supporter of continuous learning, that you understand that, as well. I do think that you have an uphill battle. As Julie said previously, traditional and popular training methods are that way because they tend to work, and are proven.

 

Karrin

 

Karrin,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement...

 

and to add one final comment before I go outside:

 

I am not in a battle with my peers...there is plenty of room in the world for everyone to explore their own way...and although many may find a new system of training too odd, my time is fully booked, and clinics full with keen folks wanting to learn a better way. Each day, I try to do my personal best in all areas of my life. When I step out onto a trial field with my dogs, I am competing with my own personal standard of striving for excellence...and when that is aligned with a high scoring run...whoopie!!

 

And, because traditional methods work and are proven does not mean they are still valid, or the current best practice. We used to travel by horse and carriage...we used to wash our clothes in the river...we used to train dogs with choke collars and hanging...

 

Thanks again everyone for reading and for sharing your thoughts and comments!

Kathy