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The comments regarding dog parks, got me thinking about the challenges with the two rescue dogs we've had, with people and dogs -

 

I keep Ladybug away from young children (she came to us after snapping at a toddler that was pulling her hair -- I can't believe someone gave up so easily on this beautiful dog but it was our good fortune). Scotty was gentling after his experiences but he needed time to meet people on his own terms. If someone pushed up to him before he was ready, for the first six months or so, he'd snap at them. Ignore him, and he'd be climbing all over you in five minutes. Ladybug won't snap, but she won't go near a strange woman.

 

However, my question centers on interactions with other breeds of dogs. We don't have dog parks out in the country, but I was always careful of mixing the two rescue dogs I had with dogs of other breeds. Both Ladybug and Scotty actually snapped at dogs of other breeds, yet played well with other BCs...."Breed snobs" perhaps?

 

 

It might have been something in their background that prevented them from being comfortable with other breeds of dogs, but it does make me wonder what will happen when Robin starts puppy obedience with pups of other breeds. Will he be more tolerant, or react the same?

 

Liz

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I too think that dogs can discern breeds. A few weeks after we got Komet, my miniature schnauzer, we were rooming at a trial with a lady who had just gotten a BC pup, Komet was a few months older so they were about the same size. My boy loved to boss around the pup, just a display of dominance, no harm done. As the BC grew older, Komet continued that same mind set and soon applied it to all dogs of that breed, whatever size, color or coat length. He became Ruler of the Border Collies in his mind. Every other dog was fine, but BCs were under his domain. It was never serious, he just liked to show off and be in charge around them. The only problems that cropped up were when I wanted a Border Collie for myself. We had to go through two puppies before we found one that wasn't pushy for Komet. Didn't mean to go off on a tangent, just thought it was interesting.

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I too think that dogs can discern breeds. A few weeks after we got Komet, my miniature schnauzer, we were rooming at a trial with a lady who had just gotten a BC pup, Komet was a few months older so they were about the same size. My boy loved to boss around the pup, just a display of dominance, no harm done. As the BC grew older, Komet continued that same mind set and soon applied it to all dogs of that breed, whatever size, color or coat length. He became Ruler of the Border Collies in his mind. Every other dog was fine, but BCs were under his domain. It was never serious, he just liked to show off and be in charge around them. The only problems that cropped up were when I wanted a Border Collie for myself. We had to go through two puppies before we found one that wasn't pushy for Komet. Didn't mean to go off on a tangent, just thought it was interesting.

 

 

It is interesting that Komet figured out how to dominate the BCs -- and surprusing that they let him. I couldn't see that happening with Ladybug. the first day Scotty came home she (half his size) sat him down and read him the number one house rule -- he only breathed with her permission. He was with us for two years, and while they did get eventually along well and became real pals, he always gave way to her and for weeks after he died I was finding toys and balls stashed here and there where he'd hidden them away from her. (Sometimes I think she visits his grave not out of any sense of loss over him, but she smells the soccer ball that we buried with him!) She's much more tolerant of the pups...I think she'd had a litter or two before she came to us so she's a good nanny. She absolutely hates German Shepherds, by the way. Her hackles stand right up.

 

I'd just like to be armed with some tactics to ensure that Robin at least tolerates other dog breeds. After puppy obedience, he'll be going for his CGD and that's an important part of the test.

 

Liz

 

Did you mean that you found a pup that accepted Komet's rule or kept one that pushed back?

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Did you mean that you found a pup that accepted Komet's rule or kept one that pushed back?

 

 

I think most of them probably rolled their eyes when a 10 pound squeaky toy said he was boss and ignored him, but he's a very convincing little fellow. The first puppy we tried was too pushy and Komet was nervous wreck trying to get that pup in line, the next one was too laid back and Komet hounded that poor dog the whole two weeks he was here. I had just about given up when I found Mal. He humors Komet and does what he's told with a smile on his face, and Komet accepts that. I guess we just had to find the perfect fit.

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One of the ladies I avoid at the dog park is a rude old (and I mean oooold) lady who seems to like everyone but me. I found out one day it's because I have a dachshund. "Patty (her little white terrier) doesn't like dachshunds" she informed me, adding comments directed to her dog like "watch out Patty, those dachshunds have sharp teeth!" etc.

I'm not sure if her dog gets this prejudice from his owner or not, but sure enough her dog went after mine. That was the end of that.

 

The first doxie I had never put up with any "nonsense" from other breeds, but ALWAYS loved every doxie she met. Maybe it's because of their extreme differences in appearance, but I definitely think they know.

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I think that to a certain extent there is probably some element of communication barriers between some breeds. I remember reading in one of Temple Grandin's books about how certain breeds have maintained more of their "wolfish" communication signals than others, and it makes tons of sense to me that a super smart border collie would not be able to tolerate a dog that can't read her body signals. I once asked a worker at the doggie daycare that I take Daisy to if any of the dogs formed cliques, and she immediately responded "the huskies." Apparently all of the huskies (which Grandin had singled out as having the most wolf-like communication skills) only liked to play with each other.

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It seems to me that most herding breeds are pretty adept at reading each others' signals, and therefore may get along with each other better. Sadie can be a little quirky with other dogs, some make her nervous. She does best and is most relaxed with other shelties, border collies, and mixes thereof. For some reason, bully-type breeds tend to set her off. Now we know a borzoi from our training club, and she doesn't know WHAT to make of that!

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Our dogs are snobs but not in a breed specific way. They don't like any dog that's rude or ill mannered. They get along great with well behaved dogs. Even when they sense fear in another dog, they will give that dog space and leave them alone.

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I have never had a dog that liked dachshunds. They just don't seem to know what to make of them!

 

Summer is very snobbish. She adores german shepherds and papillons and that's it. She doesn't mind many of the herders and a few other toy breeds with a similar build to her. Generally the deciding factor is how 'respectful' the dog is of her and her space. I think a lot of the herding breeds are just less apt to be rude and obnoxious. She doesn't like obnoxious dogs. :rolleyes:

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I think there's something to be said for dogs getting along better with dogs of their same breed. It has to do with similarities in play style and communication. They just understand each other better.

I think this may very well be true. My dogs have always been most comfortable around other Border Collies. Some other breeds may fascinate them (as in, "whatever is that?") like my trainer's Greyhound. Breeds that are flat-faced, large-eyed, staring, and very upright (like Boxers), hairy faced so that the eyes and facial expression is not easily read (like Briards or Old English Sheepdogs or conformation "Beardies"), or overly "friendly" (like Labs and Goldens) are not animals that my dogs are interested in interacting with.

 

I can take them anywhere there are Border Collies (like at a trial) and they have no problem greeting, interacting, and playing with hardly any time needed to "get acquainted". Other dogs, like the types mentioned above, are dogs that they are not interested in, wish to avoid, or "distrust" and don't like to turn their backs on.

 

I'm not sure there is any breed that is more of a breed snob than a Border Collie. I think they are generally most at ease around "their own kind" and that may be due to appearance, communication, and behaviors.

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  • 1 month later...

I had an incident at the dog park yesterday that I'm not too proud of, and I was hoping to get some input. Since it's related to this discussion, I just decided to bump this thread rather than start a new one.

 

I took Daisy to the park last night after work. Usually I wait until later in the evening, but for a variety of reasons I went early - during what is essentially dog park "rush hour."

 

By way of background, Daisy has not always been the greatest of dog park citizens. She can be tennis ball obsessive to the point of extreme aggressiveness towards other dogs that try to steal her ball. But we've been working on it (through general self control work and some management on my part) and we haven't had a bad incident in months. We mostly go to the park to play fetch - sometimes she'll join a pack of dogs that's sprinting back and forth, but she doesn't really interact a whole lot with other dogs, and beyond an quick initial butt sniff is perfectly content to leave other dogs alone. If other dogs start obsessing over her, she'll usually put up with it to a point, but if she starts to snarl at them and they don't get the message, I usually step in and grab her collar until the other dog gets bored and goes away.

 

So yesterday after playing a few rounds of fetch, she runs to a corner to do her business. (Sorry - this is about to get a little bit gross. If you're squeamish about poo you should probably stop reading.) Unfortunately a piece of poo got stuck dangling off her behind, and she spent the next few seconds spinning around trying to get it off. She was getting pretty upset about it so I stepped in to help. Around the same time a basset hound comes up to start sniffing her. Normally, this wouldn't be a big deal, but she was already pretty stressed about having poo attached to her, and before I could grab her collar she attacked the basset. I'm pretty sure that she snapped at him once or twice before hand as a warning, but it happened pretty quickly and I was too focused on the poo issue to notice. Since I was standing right there I immediately grabbed her by the scruff of her neck to pull her off, and had almost gotten my hand on her collar when the basset's owner pushed me out of the way and grabbed Daisy off of his dog. I was a little annoyed because I felt that I had the situation under control, but I totally understand that the guy was worried about his dog.

 

Now, I probably should have just taken her out of the park right away, but instead I pulled her aside and made her lie down for a few minutes to make sure she was calm and in control again. Then I released her and she went to go play.

 

Five minutes later the basset's owner starts yelling at me saying his dog is bleeding and I shouldn't have my dog in the park if I can't control her. Now I spend a lot of time and energy on my dog's training so I immediately got very defensive at the insinuation. I realize now that I shouldn't have reacted so defensively, but considering that my dog is one of the only dogs at the park that actually responds to a recall, I got pretty upset. I told the guy that his dog had been extremely rude in sniffing Daisy's butt while she was going to the bathroom, and he said "well that's what dogs do," to which I responded "yeah, and dogs also get in fights when one is being obnoxious." Anyway, he demanded an apology, which I sort of half-heartedly gave, and then I left the park because I was too upset to enjoy myself any longer.

 

So I guess my question is, since I know that Daisy has a history of responding poorly to intrusive dogs should I just keep her out of the park altogether? Is the guy right that I have an uncontrolled dog? Or is it enough to just stick to those times of day that I know the park will be less crowded (there's sort of a "usual crowd" there in the late evenings that know my dog pretty well).

 

I think what bothers me the most is that this basset started the whole thing by being nosy and rude, but since mine is the one that reacted violently mine is the "bad dog." I guess I just feel like dogs have rules of communication and the basset broke those rules first. Also, it seems like a responsible owner would have noticed that his dog was approaching another dog that was visibly stressed out and would have called him off before things got bad. I know this is completely petulant and not really the point, but it just seems so damn unfair. I guess I should just accept that life is unfair and train and manage my dog so as to avoid the possibility of confronting these types of dogs (and owners) in the future.

 

Sorry for such a long post, but I really needed to get this off my chest.

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Annie is for the most part not particular about breeds; she loves everyone regardless of breed (or even species, for that matter). With that said, however, there are two notable exceptions; she hates Brittany Spaniels (bad experience with one in the neighborhood when she was younger) and Akitas (no particular reason, apparently just general principles). She also seems convinced that squirrels are the evil minions of Osama Bin Laden.

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I had an incident at the dog park yesterday that I'm not too proud of, and I was hoping to get some input. Since it's related to this discussion, I just decided to bump this thread rather than start a new one.

 

I'm not the one with the answers, but I totally feel for you. I have been dealing with similar issues with my dog. I got some great advice here from others including the fact that the other dog(s) may be lacking proper skills which your dog is correcting or intolerant of. However, reading some other information on the threads also made me conclude that dog parks are for dogs with very little concern over 'politeness' in that respect. If my dog demands too much of others, or is simply not able to deal with the stress, it's not the place for him (of course, this depends on what is meant by dog park - I'm referring to a small park where owners stand and dogs interact exclusively).

 

Like your dog, mine is very good at recall and even joins a game of fetch without winning (which he could easily do) when I say 'leave it' - he'll just run along and not get the object. So, be proud your dog is so well trained. Also be proud she'd rather be with you than the others anyway (shouldn't you be the most important?) If dogs that prefer other dogs to their humans and don't listen to commands and don't follow 'polite' rules are the happiest ones in the dog park, maybe dogs like yours and mine don't need that crowd. Would you force your polite, well-mannered, only-child into a pack of wrestling, shouting, grabbing siblings and NOT expect her to be frustrated?

 

Anyhow - that's my current take based on a lot of reading around here and elsewhere. As to the breed issue - it is interesting whether nature (body language, features) or nurture (bad experience or worried owner) causes 'breed snobbery'. I noticed my dog taking a particular dislike to dogs that carry themselves very upright and/or 'in your face' whether they are friendly or not. Including Labs, German Shepherds and Dobermans. I do believe the physical traits bred into different dogs can be misinturpereted by others as well as play and greeting style being different. My dog loves a game of chase but gets very upset when dogs 'rumble' in the park - unless it's just one-on-one.

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Shanty,

Thanks for the response. It's nice to have someone to commiserate with. It's just annoying because living in an urban area there are really only so many options for outdoor playtime. I think I'll just stick to the small crowd hours when we can play with some peace!

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By way of background, Daisy has not always been the greatest of dog park citizens. She can be tennis ball obsessive to the point of extreme aggressiveness towards other dogs that try to steal her ball.

 

So I guess my question is, since I know that Daisy has a history of responding poorly to intrusive dogs should I just keep her out of the park altogether? Is the guy right that I have an uncontrolled dog? Or is it enough to just stick to those times of day that I know the park will be less crowded (there's sort of a "usual crowd" there in the late evenings that know my dog pretty well).

 

I think what bothers me the most is that this basset started the whole thing by being nosy and rude, but since mine is the one that reacted violently mine is the "bad dog."

 

I would say she is not a dog I would take to dog parks. It's not fair to the other dogs if her reaction is extreme. A normal response to a rude sniff is a growl or lip lift, followed by an air snap if the dog does not listen.

 

I own one dog who can't go to public areas with loose dogs. It's just the way life is for him. It would be irresponsible of me to risk the safety of other dogs. I used to own a fear aggressive dog who did go to parks on an almost daily basis, but the worst he did was body slam when he felt extremely threatened. Most of the time I was able to prevent even that by reminding him to stay next to me and that I would protect him from the world.

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It's not fair to the other dogs if her reaction is extreme. A normal response to a rude sniff is a growl or lip lift, followed by an air snap if the dog does not listen.

 

That is her normal response, but every now and again there is a dog that persists even beyond a couple of air snaps. And usually I've stepped in by then so it doesn't cause a problem. Extreme aggressiveness was maybe the wrong phrase to use, because she does in fact go through all of the normal communication procedures first.

 

I guess that's the thing - I just feel like her reaction is not outside the bounds of regular dog behavior, but I guess it's for the best if we just avoid the park.

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I've always found that Blaze was more friendly/easy going towards Wendy's Border Collies (the only border collies he's in contact with) than he is with other dogs.

 

Must the the breed thing?

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From your description it doesn't sound like the Basset really did anything extraordinary. It does sound like your dog was extreme in its reaction. I have one that does as well. I have to manage him very carefully. No dog parks. No interactions with dogs he doesn't know. New introductions are managed and controlled. One of the hard parts is accepting that our dog is the problem.

Dave

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I've always found that Blaze was more friendly/easy going towards Wendy's Border Collies (the only border collies he's in contact with) than he is with other dogs.

 

Must the the breed thing?

 

I've seen many dogs recognize breeds. Shelties are notorious snobs, I've always thought. My poor Lhasa was raised by Shelties and I sometimes think he believes he's one of them. I always get a laugh at the way he greets a Sheltie, like it is Old Home Week much to the Sheltie's confusion. This is from a dog that is not big into making friends. I knew a Golden that only disliked other male Goldens. Dogs that disliked a breed after being attacked by a dog of that breed. And so on.

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Charlie hates the following breeds in the following order:

 

1. Golden retrievers

 

2. Labs

 

3. Boxers

 

Though really, I think boxers and labs are probably tied.

 

The funny thing is two of my good friends that go to the beach with us all the time have GRs and Labs. But, Charlie grew up with their dogs, plus none of them are wriggly, in-your-face types of dogs.

 

All of my dogs do best with other border collies. When I bring in a new foster dog, I can almost always be certain that my dogs will accept the new dog almost instantly. When I bring in a mix, though, it almost always takes a bit longer, and in some instances, a really long time, before my dogs are accepting of the newcomer. I'm sure it's because they are more comfortable with the way border collies act and interact with other dogs. My dogs just really dislike the "happy-go-lucky; I have no sense/respect of personal space; I'm a spaz and have no self-control" type of dog.

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Charlie hates the following breeds in the following order:

 

1. Golden retrievers

 

2. Labs

 

3. Boxers

 

Though really, I think boxers and labs are probably tied.

 

My dogs just really dislike the "happy-go-lucky; I have no sense/respect of personal space; I'm a spaz and have no self-control" type of dog.

 

LOL You just decribed Cressa. She is even iffy with some border collies. The only breed she truely adores are shelties. Don't know if its cause she knows when she see them it agility time. Jumping at 16 we mainly compete against shelties. or Ifs just cause they are the same size. Most of the sheltie we met also seem to adore her.

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I think there's something to be said for dogs getting along better with dogs of their same breed. It has to do with similarities in play style and communication. They just understand each other better.

 

I would agree with this. My 2 ACDS prefer to play with each other. They get on well with my BC but when it comes to playtime they have the same play style and will play for hours with each other despite a big difference in age. They just seem so totally in tune with each other.

 

Although my young ACD clearly recognises a BC, if she is sitting next to one in an obedience sit stay, I can see her body wiggling slightly, and she smiles in greeting and I have to hope she holds her stay. She only does this with BCs.

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