Debbie Meier Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I always have in the back of my mind the concern that breeders and buyers will get so wrapped up in genetic perfection that they will forget or lose the true purpose of breeding to begin with, to produce a useful working dog. What good is a genetically healthy breed of dog that no longer can serve the purpose it was developed for? Not only that, what will be sacraficed to gain that health, working ability, or maybe new genetic issues. Pretty is, as pretty does..... There will be and are breeders that will breed what buyers want, how many are in it now to just produce "Test" wise what the buyers are expecting? It kinda reminds me of breeding on paper, selection with non work related testing credintials as priority as opposed to working ability. Yeah, use your testing as a tool, but it's real easy to slip down the slope of using them as the basis of a program making hard and fast decisions based on the tests, how do you resist that temptation culling based on the paper test? Personally the hard and fast decisions should be on working ability, but when you have buyers that are not really interested in true usable working ability or are not interested in understanding how a dog should properly handle stock, you are faced with a choice, breed for the buyers or breed for yourself. If each buyer selected a breeder based on the breeder that is breeding for themselves not for the buyer first and foremost I think we and the working dogs would be better off. Luckily there appears to be a pretty hefty gene pool of working border collies (appears), I've spoken to people that have working AKC registered Australian Cattle Dogs, some have found themselves in a genetic trap, their breeding pairs are limited, there just are not enough acceptable mates (based on paper tests) available to ensure genetic diversity while maintaining a level of working ability, what do you do? Stop breeding??? Or do you sacrafice something, which do you do, sacrafice the working ability or do you take a chance of producing a genetically flawed individual? One breeder I spoke to mentioned that the number of mates for her dog that pass all the tests and are not closely related can be counted on one hand, nation wide. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I believe the main responsibility is with the breeder and I know some breeders pull the nutritional/exercise card as an excuse.Science has demonstrated that environmental (owner) conditions can affect the development of CHD where it cannot be detected (radiographic testing) or prevented by the breeder (not breeding healthy dogs that carry the genes). This is where owner responsibility arises; and where you and I disagree. Since CHD is a polygenic disease it is highly unlikely that even knowing the genetic status of every breeding dog would allow breeding practices/choices to be developed that would eliminate CHD from the gene pool. Take for example the simple genetic disease of multidrug sensitivity in collies; it will be difficult to develop a healthy breeding program (sufficient genetic diversity) where 75% of the gene pool carriers a copy of the genetic mutation (carriers do not have the disease). In the case of CHD there are an unknown number of genes that have variable influences the development of CHD and severity. The test that we have for CHD is not 100% reproducible (environmental factors influence the subjective hip rating) and the test does not give us information on the genetic status of the healthy dogs. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I've raised BCs and done all the wrong things with them (fat, grew fast, ran and jumped a lot as pups) who had excellent hips until old age. I've also raised BCs and done everything right (thin, restricted exercise, slow growth) who had HD. It is my personal theory that if HD is polygenetic (which I think it is), the dogs who you can do everything wrong with and still get excellent hips probably have few, if any of the genes causing HD, while dogs who get HD despite doing everything correct have a high genetic load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I've raised BCs and done all the wrong things with them (fat, grew fast, ran and jumped a lot as pups) who had excellent hips until old age. I've also raised BCs and done everything right (thin, restricted exercise, slow growth) who had HD. It is my personal theory that if HD is polygenetic (which I think it is), the dogs who you can do everything wrong with and still get excellent hips probably have few, if any of the genes causing HD, while dogs who get HD despite doing everything correct have a high genetic load.I would agree with this. How does a breeder know ahead of time which type of dog the sire and dam are before breeding? Clearly there are puppy buyers that expect this of breeders. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 For anyone who thinks hip dysplasia can be bred out with current tests, you need to get educated. The Guide dog associations have complete control over what they breed, and every dog, in every litter, is xrayed. yet only breeding dogs from generations of clear litters, and they *still* have dogs flunking out due to to HD. (They do have a reduced rate, but does it matter if its you puppy that's got the problem?) That leaves testing we don't have (gene markers and the like), nutrition, and exercise. You can't make bad hips good with food and exercise, but you can make the dog much more comfortable, much later in life, than otherwise. You *can* make good joints bad with food and exercise. It takes work, but believe some owners are super good at it Like the agility guru who approached me about a puppy and was complaining that she had her last *five* dogs have ocd surgery. 5, FIVE, *unrelated* Border Collie puppies. Thats not bad luck, that's bad management - including being fully trained for top speed agility and full height by 12 months. The same goes for hips. Baby joints are just that, and if someone were so foolish as to say...take a 6 month old, 10 lbs overweight pup jogging for 5 MILES they hardly have the breeder to blame. I'm all for testing, but some buyers need a dose of reality. Want unquestionable guarantees? Go get an adult dog and xray it. Like what you see - take it home. If you don't - don't. eta- before someone starts flaming and gives me a headache, I do believe a breeder should make *reasonable* effort to prevent genetic disease in the pups. Reasonable being defined as taking advantage of available genetic testing for pertinent diseases of the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I suspect that the dogs who develop HD after being raised improperly have a moderate genetic load. They wouldn't develop HD if raised correctly, but some of the genes had to be there. I only say that because of my theory of HD (see my previous post). Lots of young dogs that are virtually run into the ground do not develop HD. I do believe that most of the dog population has at least a mild to moderate genetic load, hence the production of dysplastic pups from normal parents, so being careful with pups is important. The one time I have seen HD where I was certain it was traumatic rather than genetic was in a dog who had a known injury as a pup. He had a fracture of his femoral head and neck when he was a few months old. When he was a year old hip rads were taken to see how well it had healed. The injured joint had a very poor fit and the old fracture was clearly visible while the non injured joint looked like it would score at least a good. One of my own dogs had a femoral fracture (distal) when he was just a few weeks old. Despite one leg being short and deformed both his hips are excellent. To me that says that good genes overcame a bad environment. My oldest male was diagnosed with HD when he was just a few months old. No amount of environmental control could have stopped him from being dysplastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 My oldest male was diagnosed with HD when he was just a few months old. No amount of environmental control could have stopped him from being dysplastic. Ok ... so there's a prime example of ... What do you think the breeder's responsibility should be there? Any? Refund? Partial refund? Replacement dog? Pay for surgery? Just out of curiosity, Liz, what did the breeder offer ... if anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Ok ... so there's a prime example of ... What do you think the breeder's responsibility should be there? Any? Refund? Partial refund? Replacement dog? Pay for surgery? Just out of curiosity, Liz, what did the breeder offer ... if anything? The breeder offered a replacement pup or full refund (and I could keep him). I accepted the offer of a replacement pup. We both know the response of the woman who bred his sire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 We both know the response of the woman who bred his sire. Is the woman who bred his sire responsible for not only the pups she put on the ground, but the puppies of the puppies she put on the ground? Am I misinterpreting something here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Is the woman who bred his sire responsible for not only the pups she put on the ground, but the puppies of the puppies she put on the ground? Am I misinterpreting something here? No. I told her about my dog purely as an FYI. I expect nothing from her. It was her response to the information that annoyed me. If a dog you have produced was siring dysplastic pups wouldn't you want to know about it? To a breeder that information should be far more valuable than the hip scores of the parents. Knowing whether a dog sires a relatively low percent of pups with HD, average percent or high percent says a lot about the genetics of that dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 No. I told her about my dog purely as an FYI. I expect nothing from her. It was her response to the information that annoyed me. If a dog you have produced was siring dysplastic pups wouldn't you want to know about it? To a breeder that information should be far more valuable than the hip scores of the parents. Knowing whether a dog sires a relatively low percent of pups with HD, average percent or high percent says a lot about the genetics of that dog. What about the siblings of both sire and dam? And are there any other offspring's? Or offspring's from either parent crossed to a different one? I don't know what she said, or how, but with as little as we "know" about CHD isn't it still hard to isolate exactly who's to blame (sire/dam). But to answer your question, yes, I would want to know. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 The sire was neutered because he was consistently producing a high rate of HD with unrelated bitches. I agree that the dam had to contribute. She, however, did not produce a high rate of HD in her other litters. I didn't ask for anything from the sire's breeder. I didn't ask for my dog's breeder to pay for his vet bills related to his HD or luxating patellas. I passed on the information to both of those people in an effort to help them breed healthier dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Easy Liz, I was just asking for info. Good to know he was neutered! Obviously your pup wasn't a one time fluke. Knowing you I didn't think you would have asked anything of the breeders. BTW, I miss your old avatar! K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 And what about the breeder of the dam? Did you notify them to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 At the time I didn't know how to get in contact with her, but since then I have spoken with her a few times. She has always been very polite and professional and I would not hesitate to buy a dog from her. I've had conversations with breeders of many of the ancestors in my dogs' pedigrees. Aside from the one, they have all been open, honest, polite and happy to exchange information. I even called Scotland to ask a question about one of my dog's ancestors. That breeder had no problem whatsoever talking about the health issues that might show up in the lines. He was even able to describe my dog's working style without ever meeting her! The wealth of knowledge of the hill shepherds who have been breeding BCs for decades is amazing. I liked my old avatar as well. It was a great photo, but I like to change things around from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Aside from the one, they have all been open, honest, polite and happy to exchange information. And MW never has been. I'm sure this isn't news to you. My suggestion to you would be to get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 And MW never has been. I'm sure this isn't news to you. My suggestion to you would be to get over it. I have. You're the one who wants to talk about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 My suggestion to you would be to get over it. Jodi are you out of Corona's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 LMAO! YES! It's ok though. I went back to an old favorite -- Bacardi & Diet Coke. Makes mowing the lawn in 95 degree weather much more pleasant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I know it is not possible for breeders to breed 100% of puppies with all the required charactersistics all the time. A good breeder strives for improvement which for a BC would obviously be a sound high quality working dog. I would have thought feed back from owners of your pups is of paramount importance in deciding what dog to match with which bitch. Sometimes a mating simply doesnt work wheras a different pairing may work well. I supplied information to my breeder of my pups dysplastic status. I didnt blame her because I had been satisfied with her breeding practices and I know she has since used the information I gave her and my pups litter sister that was sold to another breeder has since been spayed. I also know that dysplasias are not simple because of their polygenic nature and influences that are beyond a breeders control. What I do resent is the reaction of a friends breeder who on being told about the severely dyplastic status of my friends 3 month old pup blamed the owner for poor nutrition and exercise, when we discovered that other siblings from the litter had similar problems and notified the breeder she ignored it and is currently breeding from the 2 litter sisters she kept from that litter. There have since been some tears for the owners of some of the resulting pups. The responsibility of the breeder is to strive for the best dogs they can produce for that breed and to welcome the information supplied by purchasers. The responsibility of the owner is to do the research on the breeder they have chosen, and to make sure the pup is appropriately fed and exercised and to give the breeder information and feedback that may be useful in helping the breeder to make the best decisions. I think it is also the resonsibility of the breeder to put some effort into selecting homes for their pups especially ones going into other breeding programs. Pups generate a wealth of information for their breeders and several breeders I know track the progress of the majority of their pups. With progeny testing in the lamb and beef industry some sires just statistically throw faster growing, better quality progeny than others under a wide range of conditions. In regards to working dogs and the local farmers I know, they simply breed their best and soundest dogs. Any dog that doesnt work or is unsound is shot. Pretty tough but most dont think twice about it. They swop genetics with other farmers and will buy in proven genetics from other areas but all that aside it is a one way trip for anything that doesnt shape up. Talking briefly about ACDS 30 years ago before helicopters and such took over the mustering, the true working ACD was the toughest, smartest, healthiest dog ever but the ones I own now - mainly showbred are a pale comparison in soundness and working wise to those dogs of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 In regards to working dogs and the local farmers I know, they simply breed their best and soundest dogs. Any dog that doesnt work or is unsound is shot. Here, often times, they are sold to pet homes, "sport" homes, or land in puppymills and they get bred time and time again because they are "fast" ... or "smart" ... or produce a whole host of colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Here, often times, they are sold to pet homes, "sport" homes, or land in puppymills and they get bred time and time again because they are "fast" ... or "smart" ... or produce a whole host of colors. Yes I am quite sure that happens here too sometimes and I dont know the answer to that or that it will ever change. But here most farmers I know run largescale remote operations and havent got time to bother with selling or rehoming dogs, it is simply not on their radar. I deal with several on a regular basis who are good friends and who have very nice working kelpies and are very knowlegable about their dogs and I am tempted to by pass the whole breeder thing and get one of these next time. My breeder experiences have left me slightly jaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMack Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 In some breeds Elbow dysplasia for example does not exist or is extremely rare no matter what you do to the dog as a pup. Sorry -- still trying to understand this. Would that not mean that if you stopped "breeding" border collies strictly along "breed-specific" lines, and allowed a little genetic material from a "breed" that does not develop elbow dysplasia in, that you would reduce the likelihood /prevalence of elbow dysplasia in the dog population? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 In some breeds Elbow dysplasia for example does not exist or is extremely rare no matter what you do to the dog as a pup. Sorry -- still trying to understand this. Would that not mean that if you stopped "breeding" border collies strictly along "breed-specific" lines, and allowed a little genetic material from a "breed" that does not develop elbow dysplasia in, that you would reduce the likelihood /prevalence of elbow dysplasia in the dog population? This is just my thought, it may not be a valid one but here goes.....Yes, I think you could reduce the rate by outcrossing, but you will also dilute the traits that have been selected for for quite a long time, yeah you might be able to quickly get back to dogs that look like border collies, but will they work like border collies? Which is worse, the current rate of dysplasia or outbreeding and going backwards potentially alot in the work department? I don't know which breeds do not have Elbow dysplasia in them, but if they are not herding dogs think about how long it would take you to get back to where we are, and in getting back there do you end up breeding the dysplasia back in? It might be worth it, but now you gotta find someone willing to do it, and where are all their pups that don't work going to go, and on and on and on... Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Does anyone know what the rate of elbow dysplasia is in border collies? Is its significant? Is one population more greatly affected than another (show, working, etc.?). I have to say that elbow dysplasia is not something that has been on my radar as being a significant problem in the breed, but maybe I've been asleep at the switch and so missed something.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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