What is a breeder's responsibility?

[Tommy Coyote]

I had posted that my friend has a 10 month old border collie puppy with serious dysplasia in one hip. He is a well bred dog from a respected breeder in our area (not Jack Knox). Both parents parents had hips and eyes certified clear.

 

The breeder was very concerned, of course, and has been very helpful and just as nice as she can be. She offered to take the puppy back and refund the money. My friend will keep the puppy. She is very attached to him by now. And the breeder then offered to give her a new puppy at any future time.

 

There is no contract.

 

My feelings are that this all one could expect from the breeder.

 

Another one of our friends feels like the breeder should be expected to pay for at least 1/2 of the operation to correct the hip socket - about $2500.

 

I told them to hold off and just let me put the question out here and see what people think is a reasonable solution.

 

Thanks.

[Maralynn]

I agree with you. It sounds like the breeder is handling the situation well.

[Sue R]

My opinion is that, since the breeder has both offered to take the pup back and give a refund, and also to give a new pup should the owner keep this pup, that she has done a very responsible job of backing her pup.

 

That is the problem with a "defective" pup as, often by the time one realizes the problems, you are so attached that you would not give the pup back - which seems to be the case here. The owner has chosen to keep the pup and therefore be responsible for the treatment. The breeder has made two perfectly good (even if not what the owner wants) offers to "make good".

 

The sad thing is that a dysplastic pup can be produced by good or excellent parents. Testing and breeding sound animals does reduce the likelihood of hip dysplasia but it doesn't necessarily eliminate it. Plus, there can be other contributing factors.

 

This is quite a different situation from a breeder that sold a pup (at half price) with a known, very significant birth defect, that would require extensive and expensive specialist treatment. This was, in my opinion, completely unethical, and an entirely different situation from your friend's, where the pup was sold in good faith by someone who apparently had bred responsibly and was willing to back up her breeding with reasonable alternatives.

 

Best wishes to her and her pup!

[Caroline Reichard]

I think that the breeder is being extremely helpful and cooperative. I don't agree at all that the breeder should help pay for surgery your friend decides to do with her pup.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with you. The breeder did the responsible thing by having the parents' hips checked. With pups, there are no guarantees. This is not a breeder who deliberately bred dogs with bad hips. I think she's done all she should and then some by offering to refund the puppy price and take the pup back and provide a free pup in the future. If puppy buyers start expecting breeders to cover the cost of future, unforseen genetic problems that crop up, it would be a sad day for responsible breeders who try to do the right thing, and wouldn't affect BYBs or mills at all (sorry, just had to editorialize).

 

Also, I think there are less expensive surgical options available for pups with CHD (wasn't FHO mentioned in the other thread in the H&G section?).

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

Julie: I asked her about the other operation so I know she is considering it. The vet she works for did that same operation on my rescue dog. I don't know why he didn't mention it to her as an option. I don't know if that operation would work if there is no socket. I'm sure she will look into that.

 

She is also looking into finding some places where he can swim. And they should start the adequon (sp) treatments this week. And she has ordered glucosamine in chewable tablets for him. And started him on fish oil.

 

This little guy is really lucky to have the home he does. She and the vet she works for will do everything possible to make his life a good one.

[IronHorse]

Sounds to me that this breeder is being quite gracious with their offer to refund the purchase price and take the pup back plus offering a replacement anytime in the future.

There certainly was no deception on the part of the breeder and it sounds as if they did everything in their power to assure their breeding stock was sound.

Your friend who owns the pup is accepting the responsibility of bearing the full cost of any medical procedures by keeping the pup.

I really do not understand where this other person comes up with the premise that the breeder should bear 50% of the cost of the operation especially concidering that no contract of any kind is in place.

My sympathy goes to the breeder here, it seems they are quite concerned over the matter and wish to do whats in their power to make it right.

To ask more of them then what they have already offered would in my opinion be in poor taste.

[Debbie Meier]

The breeder appears to be very reasonable, no, they should not be responsible for 1/2 the operation or supportive care.

 

Just wanted to add a thought here, if the pup was bred and raised to be a working dog and a defect inhibits their ability to work there is really no practial justification to put money into the pup except as a pet for our own purposes. I kinda get torn in these situations having seen dogs that were physically unable to do what they were bred to do, but their minds still drove them to try, causing them great pain and discomfort. My concience tells me the right thing is to euthenasia and then to move on to a new pup, not to mediate my expense but to mediate the dogs time here not being able to do what it is driven to do.

 

Not too long ago we brought a colt home that had a lump on it's ankle and a limp, the owners could not bare to put it down. We evaluated it, yeah it was happy and friendly, but when it wanted to run you could see the ankle stopped it, the limp would soon turn to a hobble. The colts quality of life just was not there, we had him put down. After he was put down we had the ankle checked, it was broken in many places, who knows how long they watched that pretty colt hobble around (and he was a pretty bugger). I understand that some would wonder why we did not check it before he was put down, we did, a physical examination showed an inability to flex and hard calcifications, there was not reason to put more money into a vet's evaluation. We were able to do what his owners could not because we were not attached, but also because we don't consider leaving it to be in pain fair when the only purpose would be so we could look at the pretty pony, of I suppose he could have serviced some mares, he was well bred and still a stallion, but I'm not willing to put him through that, it would only be for myself at the expense of his quality of life.

 

I know that as hard as it would be to do, I would do the same thing in the event that one of our own horses or dogs had an injury or defect that inhibited them from doing what they were put on this earth to do and driven to do. Even thinking about one of our border collies wanting to work but finding themselves in severe pain or discomfort after doing so brings tears to my eyes. All I can think of is that they would not understand why they hurt, while I stood by understanding. I would like to believe that I would free them from their pain. We have bred these dogs to serve a purpose for us, most are driven to do it, if their bodies are broken and can't do what they are driven to do I can only see one fair option, I just pray every day that others don't take that option away from us when we feel it is needed to be exercised.

 

(sorry, I'm not trying to stir the pot, I just felt that I need to share my thoughts, and my tears are flowing as I type just at the thought of being faced with these types of situations)

 

Deb

[trailrider]

This last horse post helps me to conclude that it is not always genetics that cause hip dysplasia. Puppy injuries, not evident, can create the set up for a problem. You can`t guarantee a pup for the future, and this breeder sounds as good as he/she can be.

[Laurelin]

We had a similar thing happen to a pap puppy we bought. There was no way the breeder could've known about the issue, you couldn't test for it. It showed up after we had gotten him. We were offered a full refund and a new pup but were too attached to give him back. We euthanized him not long afterwards because his quality of life deteriorated so fast. We immediately got a refund and now we have his brother who is healthy as can be. That is all you can ask of a good breeder. Even with the best planning and testing things can show up that you could never have predicted.

 

I would not hesitate to buy from a breeder like that again because I KNOW they will back up what they've bred.

[Lenajo]

Since the breeder made reasonable effort (by xraying the parents) to prevent this it would appear she's covered her part of the deal. The offer to refund and replace - also appropriate.

 

We are assuming that this is even genetic. It may not be. Things to happen in utero that have nothing to do with genes, and everything to do with...well luck. Congenital malformations do happen.

 

If the owners choose to keep the puppy and spend money on it's care its up to them. The breeder is not responsible for those bills.

 

I'm with Debbie on this one. You have a very young, very active (Border Collies and horses, about the same!) animals with serious problems that will bother them to some degree for life. We also have to look at the financial realities. This surgery is going to cost them a lot of money, and even the best of orthopedic repairs are more prone to arthritis later. The pup will spend a lot of time confined to recover too - and then possibly still be limited in the range of activities in can enjoy. I wouldn't for example, ever be comfortable putting a puppy with hip replacemnts or fho in agility or frisbee (I know some people do it, but I can't emotionally based on my knowledge of the degree of pain these conditions has in humans). Difficult herding (touch stock, tough terrain) is out too.

 

I would cry and wail for days if this was my puppy, and I would euthanize it and get another puppy (or perhaps an adult, lets avoid this debate again) later when I was ready.

[Lenajo]

not hesitate to buy from a breeder like that again because I KNOW they will back up what they've bred.

 

Thats what I tell people too. Experienced long term breeders who have a good track record of standing behind their pups with kindness and empathy (to both species) when the unforseen occurs are worth their weight in gold.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

My feelings are that this all one could expect from the breeder.

 

I agree.

[Debbie Meier]

We are assuming that this is even genetic. It may not be. Things to happen in utero that have nothing to do with genes, and everything to do with...well luck. Congenital malformations do happen

 

I always pray that if a pup is born with a defect that it is one that I can identify right from the start. When evaluating litters I look for the ones that don't grow at the same rate as others, ones that are not as mobile, late to walk, cry more then others, or maybe just don't seem to respond as readily. I have a litter right now that has a crier in it, my gut says to not let that pup leave here, she appears healthy on all other acounts. It might be that she is just going to need different handling then the rest, or it may be an indication of other problems that we just can't see right now, or it might be that she is just more vocal, regardless I feel that I need to find out for myself and would feel horrible if she went to someone else to later find that I should have followed my gut.

 

Deb

[Lenajo]

brief hijack.... Debbie what do you call a "crier" - besides the obvious of course? I watch pups closer that don't respond well to quick handling (like picking them up from the box in one swooping arm motion) and don't recover quickly (remaining stiff and not relaxing when the realize its just a human).

 

Trust your gut. The worst experience I've ever had with a pup buyer was one that my gut told me I should never leave the pup there. I let 2 well meaning friends talk me out of it, and regretted it ever since.

 

eta: another thing Debbie that I've noticed is that congenital malformation never occur alone. So if you see one problem with a pup that you think "that's ok in a non-breeding home" you better think twice, and look more.....it's not the only problem.

[Debbie Meier]

brief hijack.... Debbie what do you call a "crier" - besides the obvious of course? I watch pups closer that don't respond well to quick handling (like picking them up from the box in one swooping arm motion) and don't recover quickly (remaining stiff and not relaxing when the realize its just a human).

 

Trust your gut. The worst experience I've ever had with a pup buyer was one that my gut told me I should never leave the pup there. I let 2 well meaning friends talk me out of it, and regretted it ever since.

 

eta: another thing Debbie that I've noticed is that congenital malformation never occur alone. So if you see one problem with a pup that you think "that's ok in a non-breeding home" you better think twice, and look more.....it's not the only problem.

 

She's just cries, they are just now starting to open their eyes. During the first week I noticed one female, just cries, not all the time, but 9 times out of 10 if one is voicing their displeasure it is her, I also noticed in the past few days that she is sometimes by herself, not sure if that's why she is crying waking up finding herself alone, or if she is seperating herself from the rest. I'll keep watching to see what type of changes occur as they get their vision and hearing. Mom is like a bull in a china shop with them too, I've never had a female that was so rough with her pups, I suppose it could be something as simple as a broken rib. She's one I'm watching close as she becomes more aware of her surroundings.

 

You mention about congenital malformation never occuring alone, it's why I would not save cleft pallets and the such, so far we have not had problems with our pups but we have seen it with horses, you spend thousands trying to save a problematic colt just to have it die of something else or to have it never thrive.

 

eta: regarding mom, she's rough to the point of thinking "if they survive her they are going to be tough little buggers"

 

Deb

[Tommy Coyote]

Fortunately this dog will never probably even see sheep. He is a pet now. He plays with the other dog and just kind of generally lives the life of Riley. The owner had hoped to do some agility and maybe a little fun day kind of herding with him so that is pretty much out now. But no way will she have him put down. It would be different if she had bought him to work but she didn't. And I don't know how she will feel if he starts to be in a lot of pain.

 

Its a hard call for anyone to make. But my Ellie was hit by a truck when she was 4 months old and had a broken pelvis and hip. Her owners wanted to put her down. My vet took her, operated on her leg, and gave her to me. She has just been a house dog all these years. I don't think she has ever been an unhappy dog. She is just my buddy. She pretty much just stays with me when I'm home and she plays with the puppy. She gets around pretty well - can even jump up on the bed which is pretty high up there. But she can't run very fast and she can't corner very well. Working was definitely out.

 

No matter how you look at it, it is a real bummer. For everyone.

[jdarling]

My concience tells me the right thing is to euthenasia and then to move on to a new pup, not to mediate my expense but to mediate the dogs time here not being able to do what it is driven to do.

 

I think breeders, livestock owners, ranchers, etc. have an "easier" time handling things that way, understand the rigors a working dog goes through and how important full pain-free fuction of their bodies are -- where as the pet community usually will pour thousands of dollars and whatever else it takes to save their dogs. Different cultures, I guess.

 

Aside from that, I don't think there's a question of whether to put the dog down or have the surgery. From the OP, tt seems to be a given that the owner is going to keep the pup and do the surgery ... question being, though, how much responsibility is that of the breeder.

 

I agree with what others have said. What this breeder is offering is more than reasonable and sounds like they are standing behind their breeding, and no, I do not think they should be responsible for any part of whatever surgery the owner decides to have done.

 

I wish the pup owner well, and I hope they are able to offer the pup some relief, no matter which method they choose. The FHO surgery where they cut the "ball" off, while requiring a long recovery time to build the muscle up, etc., seems to offer the dog a pretty pain-free future. The one "severe HD" dog I had it done on made a full recovery and was still as active as ever.

[jdarling]

Yes, I agree it's a bummer, but in my opinion (take THAT for what it's worth!) ... for what the dog was purchased for ... it's not a death sentence. I would have them talk to their vet about the FHO surgery and what expectations they can have after surgery. The way I found out about the FHO surgery for my ex's dog was at a dog trial from a dog that was running in the trial that had the surgery done on both hips. So there's that.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've raised a "Screamer" and she was fine, physically and mentally both. She was just very vocal and I think her will was a bit stronger than her body. Once she grew out, she was actually a pretty quiet dog. She never did develop patience though - but she made a fine companion and goosedog.

 

I do agree that interference in the whelping box is rarely worth it, from my limited experience (not during whelping, but after the pups' arrival).

 

I don't think there's anything more that could be expected from the breeder in the OP. When I take a pup, with or without a contract, I understand I'm taking risks. Heck, pups catch infectious diseases - at the vet even - they get hurt tripping in the yard - my breeder Christine, when I picked Sam up, pointed to a bucket at one point and reminded me that pups can drown in even small buckets - or large ones with not much water. If, she hadn't mentioned this and God forbid, Sam drowned in a bucket, I certainly wouldn't blame her for not warning me.

 

What's important to me is that I have a relationship with the breeder that assures me that the support is there when stuff does happen. this is why I encourage newbies in the breed to wait a while until they've gotten to know the culture and made some friends. I don't buy from a breeder unless I've observed them, know what their breeding goals are, how they train, and have seen how they treat their puppy buyers.

[Lenajo]

It would be different if she had bought him to work but she didn't

 

I don't think it's really fair to assume that any of us would treat this pup differently if it was bought for "work" or "pet". I know I, and ime many "work" oriented owners here, value quality of life over all regardless of what the dogs does for us.

 

My question is if a puppy with these significant problems (severe hip dysplasia, demodetic mange, and now a seizure), this early, can have that. The chances are slim, the expense (both emotionally and financially) is going to be very high. Will the pup have the life of Riley? I don't know. Will he know the difference between what he can do, and another puppy with good health? Nope, he won't. Will he be able to tell you how much he hurts compared to what it felt not to hurt? No, he'll have no idea.

 

Thats where we responsible humans step in. We have to decide what is fair and right. Is the pup going to be able to enjoy the life or a relatively normal dog? Or will he be a veal calf, kept in a bubble wrap of surgury and medications? What is the stopping point? of pain? of finances?

 

If anything is different about livestock oriented Border Collie owners, is that we have more experience knowing when we can't help the animal and that our emotions are writing checks that the animal (and often our finances) can't cash. It isn't any easier, but practice does help you find level ground to think on quicker.

 

No one can make the decision for this puppy's owners. I would, if I were their friend, insist they look at all the options and the potential fall out of all choices.

[Lenajo]

I've raised a "Screamer" and she was fine, physically and mentally both. She was just very vocal and I think her will was a bit stronger than her body. Once she grew out, she was actually a pretty quiet dog. She never did develop patience though - but she made a fine companion and goosedog.

 

Didn't that dog end up being rehomed because of her behavior? Trim right?

 

Genetic lack of patience, or "frustation intolerance", is a major source of behavior problems that end up in ocd and/or and biting. I wouldn't let a pup go from here that showed what guys describe. I might keep her and evaluate for a few months...not sure...not seen one at the level you describe in the litter at 8 weeks.

 

I wish more breeders had the grit to say "no" and keep suspect pups instead of experimenting on buyers, especially pet homes.

[Debbie Meier]

Didn't that dog end up being rehomed because of her behavior? Trim right?

 

Genetic lack of patience, or "frustation intolerance", is a major source of behavior problems that end up in ocd and/or and biting. I wouldn't let a pup go from here that showed what guys describe. I might keep her and evaluate for a few months...not sure...not seen one at the level you describe in the litter at 8 weeks.

 

I wish more breeders had the grit to say "no" and keep suspect pups instead of experimenting on buyers, especially pet homes.

 

I guess I consider that as a mental disability and something I would want to determine if different training (style) would have changed the outcome or if I would just consider it an unsuccessful mating. There is a factor that some people don't take into consideration when they are breeding and/or purchasing, the ability for others to be able to train and get along with their dogs, some crosses should not be put into pet or recreational homes regardless of their ability or lack of ability to work. It's kinda like the high powered performance horses, some are not for the run of the mill weekend warrior trail rider, even one that lacks the ability to be a top performer.

 

Sorry to kinda go off topic.

 

Deb

[BustopherJones]

What is a breeder's responsibility?

Without making any evaluation of the breeder, I will answer the basic question that was originally posed. Legally, unless there is specific law applicable to the transaction, the responsibility of any seller to a buyer is defined by, and limited to, that which is defined in a written contract signed by both parties, or in the terms and conditions of a written purchase order initiated by the buyer and acknowledged in writing without exception by the seller. If there is no written and signed contract, then the breeder technically has no responsibilities whatsoever, and any remediation is subject to what he/she chooses to provide as a good faith gesture. When I got Annie, the breeder and I both signed a pro forma contract that clearly spelled out the breeder's responsibility, as well as my responsibility as an owner (including the fact that the dog would not be used for breeding purposes).

[Tommy Coyote]

I don't think it's really fair to assume that any of us would treat this pup differently if it was bought for "work" or "pet". I know I, and ime many "work" oriented owners here, value quality of life over all regardless of what the dogs does for us.

 

My question is if a puppy with these significant problems (severe hip dysplasia, demodetic mange, and now a seizure), this early, can have that. The chances are slim, the expense (both emotionally and financially) is going to be very high. Will the pup have the life of Riley? I don't know. Will he know the difference between what he can do, and another puppy with good health? Nope, he won't. Will he be able to tell you how much he hurts compared to what it felt not to hurt? No, he'll have no idea.

 

Thats where we responsible humans step in. We have to decide what is fair and right. Is the pup going to be able to enjoy the life or a relatively normal dog? Or will he be a veal calf, kept in a bubble wrap of surgury and medications? What is the stopping point? of pain? of finances?

 

If anything is different about livestock oriented Border Collie owners, is that we have more experience knowing when we can't help the animal and that our emotions are writing checks that the animal (and often our finances) can't cash. It isn't any easier, but practice does help you find level ground to think on quicker.

 

No one can make the decision for this puppy's owners. I would, if I were their friend, insist they look at all the options and the potential fall out of all choices.

I'm sorry. I never meant that working people didn't care about their dogs or wouldn't do the compassionate thing. I just meant that if she had bought this dog as a working dog and then he couldn't work I'm not sure what she would have done. Knwoing her I think she would have just kept the dog and gone on and gotten another one for working. But in that instance I could understand if the owner gave the dog back to the breeder and took another pup instead. Fortunately for him he is pretty much a pet and he doesn't need to really do anything very physical. He just lives in the house and she spends a lot of time with him.

 

And since she works for the vet she gets her vet work for free. As long as it isn't work that has to be done by a specialist which this surgery would be. I think his mange has pretty much cleared up now. And they think the siezure was actually caused by the medicine they were using to cure the mange - I wish I could remember the name of the stuff they used. I know they called Fort Osage and asked about the medicine and were told that if the dog had ingested any of it it could cause siezures. I know the vet (who hadn't carried the product anyway) decided if it was that dangerous he was not going to sell it in his clinic for flea control. It is some kind of flea and tick control product.

 

I have to say that if I had to choose between dealing with mental problems - like excessive fear or agression - and physical problems I would go with the physical. If it was something that I could handle - like a bum leg. I've had to deal with both and the bad leg wasn't so bad.