Inquiring minds want to know...

[Woodenlion]

I don't mean to start trouble but am I the only one bothered by the number of puppies members are buying on this site? I have noticed an increase in the number of members on this board getting puppies. Are these all pet homes or are they working farms? I am suprised at how much breeding is going on out there. Why aren't dogs being rescued instead of buying puppies? I check my paper daily and rarely and thankfully see few if any border collies offered. The amount of other puppies is sickening but I say a little prayer each time there are not border collies. However, I have noticed in my city neighborhood an increasing number of people with border collies. I know of 6 in my immediate area where before there were none. This bothers me. I would be interested to hear why members on this board are buying so many puppies and from where they are coming.

Toni

[kelpiegirl]

I think since this board is about all things border collie, most people like to talk about getting a new pup. I do think that the popularity (at least in terms of sports dogs) has gone up, but I think this is a general thing, at least in the USA. So, to me it just seems like people who love BC's love to talk BC's on the board, and where better than to talk about getting a BC pup!

Julie

[Rainierlass]

Am not sure that there has been a rise in border collie owners here in my area(there are VERY few if ever BC's in the pound or at the rescue sites) - - but I bought a second dog to have another dog to do agility and herding competitions with - Tess is in 3 classes per week - 2 agility and one herding - we also do a 5 mile river walk twice a week-- - - my BC/Aussie friends and I all get together with our dogs -at times there are 13 dogs in our group!!People along our walk will ask us if we are a club!! Yeah - the Crazy Club!

 

I wanted a high-drive pup with proven stockdog parents so that is the reason I went with a breeder - - - - I also waited until my current dog was the right age (over 2) and solid in her training before I added a puppy to our household - -

 

I guess as long as the owner knows you do not have a couch-potato type dog and you keep them entertained and busy - I don't see a problem with owning more than one BC - - I too am concerned with the wrong person ending up with the wrong breed- - -

 

 

Maggie, Tess and Roz

[Dixie_Girl]

Well, Toni, I can't speak for others, of course, but for me, I am buying the pup I am because I want a dog to trial and work. I know the parents of the pup and like how they work. The new pup has a lot of expectations on him, however, there is no guarentee. He will not be re-homed if he doesn't work out. I didn't go rescue because I am not looking for just a pet. I want a dog to do a certain thing, and knowing where the dog is coming from makes the odds better. I am NOT saying rescues cannot work or trial. I am just saying I had a chance to get a pup from lines I like.

[Carson Crazies]

I think part of what we're seeing is an influx of new members who have new puppies, and then found this board (welcome to you all!). It *is* that time of year... the major dog shows were earlier this year, and now the demand for puppies (of all breeds) is up - and its summer... people are looking for some hope and cuteness.

 

If things work out as I hope, I will be buying my next puppy soon from a working breeding. I have a dog who will work - that is an unofficial rescue - and she comes with quite a bit of baggage. I want a clean slate and a good, working bred puppy as my next dog. Just as I think it is important NOT to support BYB, Puppymillers, and people breeding for anything other than livestock working ability, I also think its important on that same page to support our working breeders.

 

I do acknowledge that far too many dogs are in rescue. I have three rescue dogs (albeit not all BC's) in my home right now. I continue to give of my time to help transport rescue dogs as needed, but I am not of the mind to think that buying a puppy *under any circumstances* is bad - and I do know many dog lovers that *do* feel that way. I can see why they would. I happen to think that buying a puppy from a good working breeding is a good thing. I also think that adopting a rescue BC is a good thing. I don't think the two things have to be mutually exclusive.

 

Have I wandered off the path again??

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm raising a pup for a Karen - he is a son of her amazing Jill and a grandson of her tremendous homebred Leah, and a continuation of her homebred cattle working line. There were a ton of pups from the breeding, all of which went to local farmers, except the three she held back to raise and train. Rocky is terrific and I'm proud to help Karen out (and playing with the puppy is just icing, of course )

[Liz P]

It's also puppy season! The spring/summer are the best time for raising new pups. I will have a litter sometime at the end of this year out of trial winning parents. It's a great combination of bloodlines that I wanted for myself. I'm keeping at least 2 of the pups for work and there is a waiting list for the rest. It is very hard to find a herding dog with exactly what you need/want in rescue. When you buy from bloodlines you know you can usually get most, if not all, of the important traits you are looking for in a sheepdog. Even if a rescue shows instinct you never know how it will turn out once you have put training on it.

 

I have a sweet foster dog needing a home, want to adopt her?

[bc friend]

I think another aspect of this is that interest in agility and flyball is increasing - and so is the level of competition so people want the best dog they can get. No offense to rescue (as you know I have 3 rescue dogs myself including one bc mix) but most of the dogs offered are either mixes or older dogs. I have nothing against either but they are generally not the dogs a competitive sports person wants. A lot of the rescues are much more laid back than a pb bc. Also a lot of rescue dogs have "issues" - such as shyness or medical needs - which need to be addressed before they can be trained for competitive sports. Please note that I am not saying breeding is better than rescue - my next dog will more than likely come from rescue but I've also had a pb bc from a responsible breeder who was everything a bc should be and I can understand people wanting to go that route as well - I just wish they would adopt a rescue dog when they buy a pup.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

Hi Rainierlass,

[Kat's Dogs]

I think it is a good thing.

 

Close to the same number of people are getting pups but more people are on the boards BEFORE they have the pups (which is a good thing). And more people are talking and active on the boards (another good thing).

 

That is MHO anyway.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

Trying again- don't know why that posted before I was finished!

 

Rainierlass, I think we have a large group of border collies in rescue here. They don't get posted until they're ready for adoption, which can take a lot of time, money, and care. The rescuers I know have many more dogs in their care than the web pages show at any time. It's overwhelming.

I'm hoping RDM and/or Colleydogge, who are active rescuers, will address this.

 

I, too, am distressed by the numbers of puppies here.

 

I hope they're not coming from back yard breeders or puppie mills and they're not poorly bred.

 

Thanks,

[kajarrel]

I don't really have a problem with people buying responsibly-bred puppies. After all, responsible breeding is necessary for continuation and improvement of the breed (meaning working dogs). What I do get frustrated with is messages from people saying, "I need to get rid of "Fly" because she herds cars, my cat, my kids" or "because she takes too much time or needs to live on a farm." IOW, I get frustrated with people who discard dogs that are simply being border collies, or dogs for that matter, with "problems" that could be "fixed" with some basic training. If people rescue, great! But I don't think that people should feel guilty about buying a puppy and caring for it for life.

 

Also, don't forget that this is an international forum with over 5,000 members - I'm surprised we don't see more "puppy" announcements.

 

Kim

[Caroline]

I think there are plenty of border collies in rescue in Washington State. Too many in Idaho and Oregon too. While of course we all understand the appeal of puppies, for a sports dog of some kind, getting a rescue has a lot going for it. You can evaluate the dog's drive and ask the rescuer lots of questions. Of course I don't have a problem with someone getting a puppy from a responsible working dog breeder if they have thought about it and it is the best choice for their family. However I do think there are plenty of non-responsible breeders and people also who think getting a puppy is the only way to go. Sadly, the adult dogs in rescue may miss out on their perfect home with a human who will live with them and give them a job.

Of course the getting a pup from a good breeder and/or going through rescue are not mutually exclusive. But I do think for dog sports and for any other thing than ranch work and trialing, rescue can probably fill a person's needs.

Caroline

[Beth G]

Originally posted by Woodenlion:

I don't mean to start trouble but am I the only one bothered by the number of puppies members are buying on this site? I have noticed an increase in the number of members on this board getting puppies. Are these all pet homes or are they working farms? I am suprised at how much breeding is going on out there. Why aren't dogs being rescued instead of buying puppies? I check my paper daily and rarely and thankfully see few if any border collies offered. The amount of other puppies is sickening but I say a little prayer each time there are not border collies. However, I have noticed in my city neighborhood an increasing number of people with border collies. I know of 6 in my immediate area where before there were none. This bothers me. I would be interested to hear why members on this board are buying so many puppies and from where they are coming.

Toni

My husband got me a pup because I lost my almost 11 yr old dog to pancreatic failure, tumours, and arthritis.

 

We then went and rescued a 1 yr old Lab/Greyhound mix dog, Charlie, and we just couldnt turn him around no matter how hard we tried. He was so aggressive that after two humane society's assessed him we had to put him down and it really hurt me.

Especially on top of losing my old girl 7 mos prior.

 

But he had seen his owner abusing his wife and toddler daughter badly. They are now in hiding and the police are still searching for the man.

 

Sooo my husband got me a BC pup, knowing that I wanted a frisbee dog, and also wanted to get into flyball. And also wanted to attempt to try and make him into a service dog.

 

Border collie seemed to fit that. Plus I am disabled as is my husband so we are home all the time. and though I admit I was ignorent to some of the breed's quirks and needs, I am trying to live up to my pup's expectations and needs. And I am learning so much here. Plus what Poppy is teaching me!

 

I can say that Poppy is the best dog I have ever had. After my old girl reilly of course!

 

Oh and another reason that my husband got me a pup was so that we could socialize it properly and head off any of those problems, like Charlie had. Plus he wanted a pup to bring up with our toddler son.

[Beth G]

Originally posted by Caroline:

I think there are plenty of border collies in rescue in Washington State. Too many in Idaho and Oregon too. While of course we all understand the appeal of puppies, for a sports dog of some kind, getting a rescue has a lot going for it. You can evaluate the dog's drive and ask the rescuer lots of questions. Of course I don't have a problem with someone getting a puppy from a responsible working dog breeder if they have thought about it and it is the best choice for their family. However I do think there are plenty of non-responsible breeders and people also who think getting a puppy is the only way to go. Sadly, the adult dogs in rescue may miss out on their perfect home with a human who will live with them and give them a job.

Of course the getting a pup from a good breeder and/or going through rescue are not mutually exclusive. But I do think for dog sports and for any other thing than ranch work and trialing, rescue can probably fill a person's needs.

Caroline

You are right. There seems to be a major problem with animal cruelty here. Especially in Spokane. And ignorence of animal care. I am rescuing neglected, lost and starved animals every month!! They just come to my door!!! But that's OK..hehe. I have my connections.

 

And most of them are able to get rehomed after proper care and being assessed.

[colleydogge]

i'd like to address a few of the statements i read on this thread, and hope i don't squash too many toes.

 

"(there are VERY few if ever BC's in the pound or at the rescue sites)" (this was speaking of washington state).

 

don't know what internet you are on, but look closer. www.pnwbcrescue.org has a steady and CONSTANT stream of dogs posted. (currently there are FORTY-FIVE dogs posted). note that almost all that are posted are purebred dogs. (see my explaination below). also, every foster home that posts on this site also has more fosters that will be posted as soon as they are ready for adoption. i have 19 foster dogs, 13 are posted and the rest are "in rehab.".

 

we are currently desperately looking for more foster homes - right now we have 3 dogs in imminent danger of being PTS, simply for lack of room.

 

just a few years ago, pacific northwest border collie rescue could boast that not a border collie or bc mix was put down at any shelter in our area, as long as we knew about it. i can still remember when i used to have 2 or 3 fostes at a time. now, sadly its not the case. we are overwhelmed and out numbered by the sheer numbers of breeders who don't place their dogs responsibly. border collie mixes don't stand much of a chance of getting into rescue anymore as we can't even keep up with the purebreds. we have several "breeders" locally who regularly have multiple litters on the ground at once, sell to anyone who comes with money, and continue to up their number of breeding females. it is simply too much for rescue to keep up with, and border collies and bc mixes are frequently PTS at our shelters.

 

in case you didn't know, many border collies never make it to the adoption floor at shelters. they are too shy or reactive (usually a result of backyard isolation) to pass the sternberg-ish temperament tests. common reasons_ - spinning in the kennel, afraid to walk on lino, avoiding eye contact, not used to being brushed.)

 

another statement made was:

"Even if a rescue shows (herding) instinct you never know how it will turn out once you have put training on it."

 

you don't know how any pup will turn out. what people still fail to realize is that rescue dogs come from the exact places all other dogs come from, pet breeders AND working breeders. they come from ANY breeder that doesn't take the trouble to keep track of their pups, and insist that they be returned to them.

 

i would like to mention that we are lucky here in washington to have several top open handlers/trialers with many years of experience that donate herding evaluations of our rescues. when we post that a certain dog has good herding/trial potential, it has shown more than just instinct. it has shown talent, keenness, biddability, balance and stock sense. we challenged a former national's winner to "find the rescues" at a recent herding clinic, and they could not.

 

another comment was that rescues are "generally not the dogs a competitive sports person wants. A lot of the rescues are much more laid back than a pb bc."

 

i only wish they were more laid back, then they would be easier to place. its the real-deal ones that are hardest to find an appropriate home for (check out daze and kyle on the wash. page of www.pnwbcrescue.org )

 

and most of our dogs offered are not "mixes or older dogs". most of our dogs are purebreds from 10 months to 3 years. and they don't have debilitating problems that prevent them from being among the best at any sport. the most common "issue" is shyness. it generally takes no more effort to cure this that it would to properly socialize a purchased puppy.

 

sorry for being so long-winded. the bottom line is YES, there are TONS more border collies in rescue than ever (at least here in washington), and there are a few good breeders, but also tons more irresponsible ones (and growing).

 

can any of the washington list members volunteer to be a foster home, even for just ONE time???? can you have a garage sale for border collie rescue?? donate some food??

 

eileen

ravensgate border collie rescue

camano island, WA

[leahluvsherpups]

Iwas going to address the same statement eileen but your words pretty much speak the truth. I am an active volunteer for the BC Rescue and there are alot of them in the Pacific Northwest. Unfortunately I am fostering one of those BC's that is NOT laid back. He needs a job and alot of training which will make his placement quite difficult.

[Betsy]

Originally posted by colleydogge:

and most of our dogs offered are not "mixes or older dogs". most of our dogs are purebreds from 10 months to 3 years. and they don't have debilitating problems that prevent them from being among the best at any sport. the most common "issue" is shyness. it generally takes no more effort to cure this that it would to properly socialize a purchased puppy.

And I would venture to say that this statement is true of the dogs we have in our rescue here in Nebraska.

[juliepoudrier]

I think if the repeated discussions we have about rescue on this board are any indication, there are some folks who want a puppy NO MATTER WHAT. There's that puppy appeal that just trumps any logical appeal rescues can make. Sad, but true.

 

That wouldn't be so bad if people would educate themselves beforehand and buy from responsible breeders (and sorry, but buying a pup from a bad breeder is not "rescuing" the puppy it's just creating a market for more bad breeding), but unfortunately, people get sucked in to the cute colors or slick ads and next thing you know, more dogs end up in rescue....

 

Just my two cents.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

I would like to second virtually everyting eileen says in her post. S

 

 

I would like to add too that summer is when we see the most puppies being purchased for a lot of reasons, the biggest ones being 1) it's easier to raise a puppy in the sunshine than the rain and 2) the kids are out of school.

 

It is ALSO when a lot of younger to slightly older dogs come INTO rescue because people go on vacation, start going out and enjoying the sun and can't be bothered with the dog.

 

It's also when we lose the most foster homes for the same reason.

 

The Fall or Winter is when all thsoe cute summer puppies end up in rescue. This is when adoptions slow down, beause it's more fun to have a dog in the summer than in the winter.

 

And so the cycle repeats itself.

 

We take overflow from WA, ID and OR because they get SO many dogs. We can't even take them all anymore. If I have under 10 dogs in my smallish rescue, it's cause for freakin' champagne. It hasn't happened in a LONG time.

 

PS: I want Nitro:

 

RDM

[AWQH]

The reason we get puppies is because it is the absolute best way when your dog is to be a full working dog. We choose our pups from working parents. For a dog wo work full time herding the bond must be strong between the dog and the owner. When you get a puppy, you can build that bond. Older dogs do not always bond so well. Yes, definately some do, but not all. We do not want to take that chance of getting a dog who will not bond.

 

 

Dianne

[MrSnappy]

Adult dogs don't bond? That's news to me.

 

What about 14 month old pups? 9 month old pups? What about 6 month old pups? Because we get lots of those.

 

What about the 2 and 3 and 4 year old started / finished dogs who get sold for $2500.00 a pop all the time? Does no one buy them because they don't BOND? Do they not work or win trials? Why do stockdog people keep training and selling them then, I wonder??

 

I don't begrudge someone buying a working pup from a reputable breeder if they need or want one.

 

I DO however begrudge complete non-truths like "adult dogs don't bond." That's just hogwash. If you feel you need to justify yourself, at least come up with something plausible.

 

I apologize for the rant, but that's just such utter crap.

 

RDM

[Lunar]

Yeah. I agree with what people have said. It's that time of the year. Plus I know many of the people posting about their puppies are actually getting their dogs from good, working breeders for work or trialling.

 

But I was wondering the same thing, a little concern about the number of puppies showing up on the forum. I am sure all of them are not from good working breedings.

 

Personally I got my pup last year in the fall... from a rescue. I knew I wanted a younger dog, though she was 4 months when I got her (as opposed to 8-10 weeks). I got the best of both worlds, IMO.

[Maralynn]

I think another aspect of this is that interest in agility and flyball is increasing - and so is the level of competition so people want the best dog they can get. No offense to rescue (as you know I have 3 rescue dogs myself including one bc mix) but most of the dogs offered are either mixes or older dogs. I have nothing against either but they are generally not the dogs a competitive sports person wants. A lot of the rescues are much more laid back than a pb bc. Also a lot of rescue dogs have "issues" - such as shyness or medical needs - which need to be addressed before they can be trained for competitive sports.

It is interesting that you would say that. For myself, if what I wanted to do with a dog was compete in sports, I would absolutely go the rescue route. I could get hips checked and have a pretty good idea of the dogs potential before I got it.

 

As I contemplate my next dog - what I'll want is a dependable farm worker - I am split 50/50 on whether to go rescue or working bred pup. I haven't seen to many working potentials in local (within 300 miles) rescues, but they still pop up. There is currently one near me that I would apply for in a heartbeat, if I was not going to be working 60 hrs/week through the summer.

 

BTW, Eileen - if you've still got Kyle in September, I'll take him!

 

As for a older dog not bonding - a working dog wants to work, and most will work for whoever will let them. My "shy of men in general" dog was herding with a guy I had a lesson with less than ten minutes after she had met him. Also, I got her as a 3 y/o from a home where she was understimulated and overcorrected - within 3 days she was my dog. Ditto for my brother's GSD he got last fall from the local shelter. The dog is about 3 y/o and absolutely adores my brother.

[airbear]

Originally posted by Maralynn:

...For myself, if what I wanted to do with a dog was compete in sports, I would absolutely go the rescue route. I could get hips checked and have a pretty good idea of the dogs potential before I got it.

Absolutely! I adopted Wick from RDM when she was about 1. Old enough to know roughly what size she would be (though she did grow a 1/2" to top out at 19.5") and I got to get her hips, elbows and knees x-rayed. Her body was exactly what I wanted, though my hopes of having a bat-eared dog were dashed (but hey, that's ok). And she's got a pretty good personality too, once you get to know her.

 

This second-hand dog goes around 6.5 YPS in Jumpers and over 7 YPS in Tunnelers, and has 17 agility titles to her name, as well as being a two-time AAC Nationals qualifier, and DAM team qualified for this year. At last weekend's NW Regionals, she ran 12 times and was straining at the leash to run again. Not too bad for a throw-away!

 

And as for bonding, well, Wick is ridiculously devoted to me. We have a connection that is freaky to some people - she can read my mind, it seems, as can my Bear (adopted at the age of two some 7 years ago). Nothing against puppies - they sure are cute - but there are some very competitive sport dogs that come from rescue.

 

Here she is, placing 1st (by almost 4 seconds) in her 12th run of the trial.