Any other herding breed that still works?

[Soda-pop]

I was just curious about this: are there other herding breeds that still primarily just work? Are there still working corgi's or shelties (puli's, icelandic sheepdogs, etc) out there or are has all their workability been lost?

 

Truth be told, I don't even know what KIND of herding a sheltie or a corgi did or if they ever really *worked*.

 

I'm just curious and thought it'd be kind of fun to find out.

[powerfulgazelle]

I was just curious about this: are there other herding breeds that still primarily just work? Are there still working corgi's or shelties (puli's, icelandic sheepdogs, etc) out there or are has all their workability been lost?

 

Truth be told, I don't even know what KIND of herding a sheltie or a corgi did or if they ever really *worked*.

 

I'm just curious and thought it'd be kind of fun to find out.

 

Hmmm...

 

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2241297860100768316WluJBI

 

Not your average Tasha Tudor corgi....

[theshine]

Shelties were bred to work Shetland sheep on the Shetland Islands. From what I've read, they were used to guard the sheep as much as to herd them. It is my understanding that they were bred specifically with the harsh climate in mind, wind, rain, etc, hence the rough coats, and also the barkiness (the need to be heard above the wind/surf). Don't know anyone personally who works their shelties, there must be some, but I know people who do "for fun" herding with them. I know of people who work their Aussies and ACD's w/ cattle.

[Janba]

Here in Australia we still have kelpies, cattle dogs, stumpy tailed cattle dogs and koolies working and of course BCs. The first four have show strains but you still see plenty of the working lines doing their jobs. Koolies aren't ANKC recognised and their are plenty around. There are still a few smithfields about, the ones I have seen have mainly been in Tasmania.

[Flamincomet]

I'm looking into other herding breeds to show in conformation, and this would be nice to know so I don't stumble onto the BC type politics again O_o

 

Anyone know if the Belgian Sheepdog is still a reputable herding dog?

 

Autumn

[Black Watch Debatable]

Hmmm...

 

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2241297860100768316WluJBI

 

Not your average Tasha Tudor corgi....

 

Sure it's an average corgi, not that there's anything wrong with that. The human is closer to the sheep than the dog is.

 

A responsive dog of any breed can be trained to move [or in this case, trot past] tame sheep in a controlled setting. Crop the human out of the picture and the dog may even look useful. There are photos on the web of bulldogs and cocker spaniels and great danes "herding."

 

As far as the so-called herding breeds themselves are concerned, most, like the sheltie, have been bred for show and companionship for the last hundred years. They have no more stock sense than a golden retriever or a beagle.

 

And speaking of stock sense: Zamora is this coming weekend [Feb 15 - 18]. Beautiful country, range ewes and a half-mile, uphill outrun -- what's not to love? I'll be there taking photos, I hope. Here's a shot from last year: Diona is out of sight behind the sheep, not that handler Haley Howard is worried or anything:

 

Diona before the shed.

 

(Disembodied legs at left belong to judge Bill Berhow.)

[1sheepdoggal]

Anyone know if the Belgian Sheepdog is still a reputable herding dog?

 

 

Well, I guess that would depend on where you got it, as some of your European bred dogs still have what it takes, but the herding styles of a lot of other breeds are very different then the herding style of a Border Collie. Some are tenders, some are drivers, some are there to protect the shepherd. Sheepdog trials are open to other herding breeds, the only reason you see it dominated by Border Collies, is because they kick butt all over the other breeds.( sorry to those who have other fav breeds)

I asked my father awhile back about a lot of the other herding breeds that are working out in Europe ( he has lived and trained dogs there for about 40 yrs) Even asked him to send/bring me a Terv from Belgian. I could almost hear him laughing all the way from Luxembourge! He doesnt hold a very high value to Border Collies, as he is a Bov owner, but had a lot better things to say about the worth of a good working Border Collie, then any of the other breeds ( especially the belgians, omitting the Bov of course) you find working? in Europe. As far as the Black Belgians, he said they were all bite and no courage. One that I find very interesting, and would like to have one day, is the Laekenois from Belgian. But not necessarily for a herding dog. http://sunreds.homestead.com/laekenois.html

[SoloRiver]

I have seen that Beauceron still occasionally appear in the lists of winners of French herding trials, although the vast majority of the winning dogs are Border Collies now. That makes me think that there must still be useful Beauceron out there.

[Soda-pop]

are there factions of the "pet-ified" ex-herding dogs trying to put the work back into them?

 

There were a couple of beau's at an AHBA trial I went to. If I were a sheep I'd run like hell from them. They're quite intimidating looking!

[theshine]

I googled working shelties hoping to find something interesting, people who work their shelties maybe, but all the "working sheltie" pages were all about conformation or shelties whose "work" is agility. Disapointing. Oh well. I have to say though, since shelties are my breed, or have been longer than bc's anyway, that though they may have lost herding ability, they have lost nothing in the way of intelligence. My little tri color can give my bc a run for his money in the brains department, though the bc has a certain athleticism that my shelties lack.

[mjk05]

I'm looking into other herding breeds to show in conformation, and this would be nice to know so I don't stumble onto the BC type politics again O_o

I think you'll have a struggle in any breed finding dogs to show in conformation (successfully, anyway) that are still working livestock in a "reputable" way, in the working/show politics sense.

 

But there are lots of "other" breeds still primarily bred for working livestock. Where I live: kelpies (lots and lots and lots of them, and most people don't realise there is a show version), koolies, huntaways, NZ heading dogs (none of those have a show version), and the odd lines of stumpy tails and Australian cattle dogs (although they are usually crossed with something else), and the very occasional smithfield.

[juliepoudrier]

Here in the North America you can still find working bred Aussies. Unfortunately, the breed split is pretty much the same as with border collies, and the working bred dogs don't look much like their larger, fluffier, heavier boned show counterparts. I imagine you could get working bred kelpies as well.

 

There are many show breeders of other herding breeds who are trying to preserve working (stockworking) ability in their breeds. The problem is that they largely started with dogs who had already been bred exclusively for show for some period of time. Since they are also trying to match a breed standard/fancy, they can't choose breeding stock exclusively on working ability, and it's much harder to put something back in than it is to preserve it in the first place (which explains the rabid reaction of the working border collie folk to those who wish to go to the conformation route). Some of the dogs from these breeders probably work to a reasonable standard, but whether that standard would be what you'd need on your own farm or for trialing other than AKC/AHBA is questionable. I believe you could find exceptional *individuals* in any other breed, but it would be difficult to be able to go to a breeder and pick a pup and know your chances were good that you'd have an stockworking dog with any talent. (Conversely, while choosing a border collie puppy is often called a crapshoot, *in general* if you choose a pup from a well-bred working litter, it will likely work, if not necessarily to National Finals level.)

 

J.

[haleigh]

All of the belgian breeds are reputable herding dogs, but, like BCs, have controversial backgroud. Proudly owned by a working malinois, and previosuly proudly owned by another, I say I don't want them to fall in the same way GSDs do. To me, belgians are small teeth-and-nails GSDs that haven't lost instinct, and aren't used as much for conformation. I like that, and to me, if you need a herding dog for conformation, stick with a GSD.

[kelpiegirl]

Yes, Kelpie.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's a group of Bouvier people who are highly interested in keeping/raising the level of working ability in their breed, http://cyberflighthost.com/~admin18/

 

The English shepherds I've seen retain a lot of their original working abilities, when you remember that they breed is an all around farm dog and not a specialized herding dog. The Bouviers are the same, actually. I've seen some pretty useful little cur dogs that were impressive in their own context (the Catahoula is probably the most widely known of these).

 

There are in fact several minor herding breeds which were originally general farm-type dogs and have not changed much - mostly because conformation is not emphasized much in these breeds and frankly expectations for the level of work for each thing they do (except protection/attentiveness) are rather low. "Instinct" rather than "usefulness" is the lowest common denominator.

 

As far as AKC dogs - I've seen some conformation Aussies that could herd their way out of a paper bag, as long as they were handled right and the sheep weren't very challenging. Ditto collies, shelties, ACDs, and even a Rottweiller or two (but the best Rottweiller I've ever seen was not up to breed standard, and likewise the best rough collie I've ever seen was a sable merle, which is apparently a breed ring no-no). I'm not into the "tending" breeds but the same for them.

 

They set things up for success and then congratulate themselves that they are retaining the "instinct" in their breeds while still succeeding in the conformation ring. Silly BC people, what do they know?

 

It depends on your goals - actually caring for livestock, or playing at herding with your dog just so you can say you can. If the former, you'll face the same split in every AKC breed except possibly the newest added to the rolls - the Beauceron. But Beaucerons are not for the faint of heart from what I understand. I saw a clinic where many Bouviers were "started" and it was, um, intense. Apparently with the Beauceron it's even more so.

[Pipedream Farm]

I know of a collie breeder who has working collies; they are not border collies but I've seen them gather, drive, and load a trailer with sheep. Based upon what I saw, I suspect these dogs would have been in trouble with heavy/challenging sheep. I guess it comes down to your definition of "work" (or what is good enough).

 

Mark

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Mark

It's interesting this came up. At an ASTA trial last year, there was a smooth collie who got positively pummeled by a ewe. The dog didn't seem fazed at all. I was really surprised.

[herdcentral]

The agricultural area I live in Australia is on the edge of pastoral country and the kelpie is the stock dog of choice. BCS are more common further south.

 

In thick bush with the tough scrub cattle, the working Australian cattle dog is still useful as a back up to more mechanised mustering techniques. The BC is not bred for these conditions.

[sunnyday]

The Arizona Herding Association lists its member dogs' titles. There's a Shetland Sheepdog on there with Advanced titles on sheep in AKC, AHBA, and ASCA. The same owner has a second Sheltie listed, same kennel name, with Started titles from all three organizations. The kennel is Banner -- I can't find anything else about them though. :\

 

Other non-BC breeds represented on that page include Old English Sheepdogs, Bearded Collies, Belgian Sheepdogs, Kelpies, Aussies, ACDs.

 

I've been tooling around the internets recently and came across several kennels of herding GSDs. Though I believe the breed originated as a guardian with a "living fence" herding style, these dogs are being used for trialing and doing OK at it I guess.

[kelpiegirl]

I just, well, have to say this: Comparing ACD's and Kelpies wrt working stock, is rather like comparing BC's to ACD's. They are nothing alike.

[juliepoudrier]

I just, well, have to say this: Comparing ACD's and Kelpies wrt working stock, is rather like comparing BC's to ACD's. They are nothing alike.

Where did anyone compare the two?

 

Alison,

Yes, you can find other herding breeds with herding titles on them, but what the titles won't tell you is whether the dog is truly useful, since the testing bar is pretty darn low.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

"Other non-BC breeds represented on that page include Old English Sheepdogs, Bearded Collies, Belgian Sheepdogs, Kelpies, Aussies, ACDs."

 

Not an exact comparison, but lumped in with the rest.

[juliepoudrier]

I think it's fair to lump all other herding breeds together when we're talking about conformation-bred dogs. In fact, I'd lump the conformation-bred border collie in with the rest as well.

 

J.

[Mona Howard]

I think there are some Beardie's still earning their keep in Great Britian.

[Northof49]

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2241297860100768316WluJBI

 

Not your average Tasha Tudor corgi....

 

Corgis weren't bred to work sheep like a Border Collie. They were bred to drive cattle down the roads, etc. One of the reasons they were bred with a shorter leg - to be low enough to miss a kick from a cow BUT their legs were not originally as short as they are now. If you look at the pictures of corgis from the early 1900s they were longer.