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Any other herding breed that still works?


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There are many breeds that can still herd. The thing is that not all are bred for that now. You could get two of any herding breed one from show and one from a working farm and one will herd one wont. Thats the truth with any of them.

 

So its not what breeds can still work, its what breeders are breeding for the true standards of the dogs so they CAN work.

 

I have seen samoyeds, acds,kelpies, shelties, rotties, borders, old english, beardies, swedish valhunds, malinois, shepherds, belgians, collies, and alot of the other herding breeds herd and work. but I have also seen dogs of ALL these breeds that showed no talent for herding at ALL.

 

So it all comes down to the breeding and lines of the dogs, not the breeds themselves. This is true with anything not just herding but nay purpose of breeds. Theres gonna be some that can and some that cant. So when you get the breed you want research lots, find there purpose, and find a GREAT breeder who sticks to that. Also from a WORKING farm is better than just competing.

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[Corgis weren't bred to work sheep like a Border Collie. They were bred to drive cattle down the roads, etc. One of the reasons they were bred with a shorter leg - to be low enough to miss a kick from a cow BUT their legs were not originally as short as they are now. If you look at the pictures of corgis from the early 1900s they were longer.

Yep, dwarfism is a big problem in the breed now.

 

J.

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interesting! I had a fun time looking up some of the Australian breeds that I hadn't heard of before. I have to say, the Australian Koolie is a cool looking dog, man. I like the look of it. They had lots of "action" shots that were neat too. Looked like they had a lot of power.

 

My friend used to take lessons with me and she had a Malanois who was doing pretty well. He had a lifetime of learning though, so learning was very easy for him.

 

I off to check the bouvier link now.

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"Other non-BC breeds represented on that page include Old English Sheepdogs, Bearded Collies, Belgian Sheepdogs, Kelpies, Aussies, ACDs."

 

Not an exact comparison, but lumped in with the rest.

 

Er. My bad. I was responding to "are there factions of the "pet-ified" ex-herding dogs trying to put the work back into them?", and the questions about specific breeds (Shelties, Corgis and Belgians). While I'm aware of the difference between working and trialing, I was under the impression that achieving more advanced titles across the board with several organizations might indicate a line of dogs selected for working ability. Clearly though I'm a rank novice here... :rolleyes: Sorry to offend by lumping!

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Yes, as someone pointed out, those "titles" mean pretty much nothing, no matter how many organizations they were awarded from. Those "trials" are almost always held in an arena, with stock who totally know the drill: follow the person around the course, unless/until the dog chases them around for a bit. Many times, the dog is totally off contact with the stock, and it is readily apparent that the dog has no interest whatsoever in the stock. What you have are dogs who are obedient to their handlers with stock in the same picture. Despite what the rules say: that if the stock merely follow the handler around the course, that person's run shouldn't "qualify," more often than not the judges give them a good score anyway. Why? Because they want another job judging, and if you don't qualify many/most of the entrants, you don't get called back. It's really just an elaborate game to make money for the organizations, and to allow the competitors to collect meaningless "titles."

A

ETA: I use the term "meaningless" from the point of view of those who really know anything about stockwork. Unfortunately, many of these handlers really believe their dogs are doing something akin to "work." And, of course, the more initials after the dog's name, the more money the pups are worth. Bleh.

 

Stepping off soapbox now...

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Yep, dwarfism is a big problem in the breed now.

 

Aren't all Corgis dwarves? Even the old fashioned ones with the longer legs? I had a basset mix years ago and his legs were longer than a PB basset but shorter than a regular dog. When I asked the vet a couple of times about how tall he'd get, she finally broke the news to me that he was a dwarf. :rolleyes: He ended up weighing about 60 lbs, not overweight. Just a full sized body on short legs.

 

 

In the midwest, I've heard that Claudia Frank breeds shelties that show decent herding ability. They're not at the caliber of a Border Collie (she also has BC's but don't know if she breeds or not). But I've heard that they have some ability at least. I've never met her or seen her shelties work. This is just what I've heard. She shows her shelties in breed and many of the pups go to performance homes.

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Yes, as someone pointed out, those "titles" mean pretty much nothing, no matter how many organizations they were awarded from. Those "trials" are almost always held in an arena, with stock who totally know the drill:

 

OMG. I took it upon myself to do a little research (http://www.stockdog.com/courses/courses.htm) and...yikes. I really thought one of those three organizations had a competition worth its stuff, but...200 feet for the outrun? vs. 400 yd for the ISDS trial? Er. Yeah. Now I gotcha.

 

And I'm wondering, if those are the only venues my local herding club mentions, is that because they don't train for the ISDS style or is it because there are no ISDS trials in my area? Both?

 

(Sorry for the thread hijack.)

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And I'm wondering, if those are the only venues my local herding club mentions, is that because they don't train for the ISDS style

 

Most probably, yes. Depends on what breeds of dogs they have in the club. You just won't find "other breeds" (almost never) training for or competing in ISDS style trials. Generally speaking, they just can't do the work: dealing with sheep that are NOT dog broke (to death), going those kind of distances, and so on. Why? Because, with little exception, those dogs have been bred for years to fit the "breed standard"--look a certain way. They have not been bred for their working ability, as the BC has (until the ACK and sport people got hold of 'em). To find any ISDS style trials in your area, go to www.usbcha.com, and look at upcoming trials. Not sure where you are, but there are always some within some kind of driving distance. Find one and go watch. You'll love it. I'm heading out tomorrow to set sheep at Zamora, Ca. Somewhere on here (recently) Luisa has pics posted of the course. Gorgeous. And the outrun is probably closer to 600+ yards.

 

Good for you for doing the research!

A

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Disney made a short movie in the 60's, the star of which was a sheltie who worked sheep. Yeh, it's Disney and Hollywood, but I'd sure like to see that movie again, because if I remember correctly, the sheltie looked like it was working, unlike, say the last Lassie flick, where the attempts to make it look like Lassie was herding, really failed.

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Disney made a short movie in the 60's, the star of which was a sheltie who worked sheep. Yeh, it's Disney and Hollywood, but I'd sure like to see that movie again, because if I remember correctly, the sheltie looked like it was working, unlike, say the last Lassie flick, where the attempts to make it look like Lassie was herding, really failed.

 

The Little Shepherd Dog of Catalina Island....I've not seen it though.

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BClover,

 

I have a 3 year old niece who got a toy doctor's kit for Christmas. All Christmas day she proudly walked around pretending to give us shots, take our temps, and cure our ailments. She was adorable, as are the pictures of the Shelties. But those Shelties are no more doing what Border collies do than my niece is practicing medicine.

 

I admire the attempt of all-breed enthusiasts to try and preserve traditional instincts in their breeds, but those dogs are not comparable to dogs in whom those instincts were never diluted.

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Not sure where you are, but there are always some within some kind of driving distance. Find one and go watch. You'll love it.

 

A few years ago I saw a herding competition on Lopez Island, Washington. Not sure if it was sanctioned, but it was organized by a Julie Matthews? Looked her up and I guess she's the real working dog deal. :rolleyes: Anyway, I just remember sitting out there on somebody's farm, barely able to see the sheep across the rolling pasture, and the Border Collies streaking confidently out along the fenceline...that's what I thought a herding trial *was*! And yeah, every size and shape of BC but I sure didn't see any Shelties or OES. :D

 

So, arenas and dog-broke sheep, huh...maybe I can get somewhere with my mixed-breed girl after all, LOL!

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So, arenas and dog-broke sheep, huh...maybe I can get somewhere with my mixed-breed girl after all, LOL!

 

That's probably all I'll ever be able to do with Soda and I'm okay with that. It's fun and a learning experience for me and she likes it and I think I'd like to compete even on a super low level, but I know it's not a test for a *real* bc but for me and my rescue puppy-mill girl, it's plenty. :rolleyes:

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That's probably all I'll ever be able to do with Soda and I'm okay with that. It's fun and a learning experience for me and she likes it and I think I'd like to compete even on a super low level, but I know it's not a test for a *real* bc but for me and my rescue puppy-mill girl, it's plenty. :rolleyes:

 

Go for it. Thank you for rescueing her.

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So, arenas and dog-broke sheep, huh...maybe I can get somewhere with my mixed-breed girl after all, LOL!

 

Well you never know. A farmer friend has a kelpie dingo cross after a dingo got to his one of his working kelpie bitches. The wild dingos are also generally crossbred with dogs. He reckons the couple of the progeny he kept are the best working dogs he ever owned! He has up to 10,000 sheep on his farm so he knows a thing or two about working dogs!

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So, arenas and dog-broke sheep, huh...maybe I can get somewhere with my mixed-breed girl after all, LOL!

 

Totally. Go for it - it's fun! That's one thing I do like about those venues, that they are set up for success, for the sake of people who are really just doing it to learn more about stock and a new way to interact with their dogs. And at least two of the venues are pretty fun and casual (ASCA, AHBA).

 

I still have dreams of having the worlds' first herding titled Chinese crested. It is seriously that easy. The learning curve is on the handler's part in learning to read stock if you have no experience in that.

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If you and your Chinese crested manage to do that Rebecca, you had better come back with some pictures!! :rolleyes:

They could probably beat us! I am so bad at arena trials, it is mind-boggling. Lou and I run Open field courses just fine, but put us in an arena (time and points, in our case) and I turn the suck knob way up. :D

 

I've done a few arena trials with my aussie mix, Bear, and actually enjoyed myself. He certainly can't do even a novice field course, but we did manage to get around an arena course just fine. Well, perhaps "fine" in an exaggeration, but no lives were lost. :D

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Sounds like the book "Dusty" - one of my all time favs.

Julie

 

Well you never know. A farmer friend has a kelpie dingo cross after a dingo got to his one of his working kelpie bitches. The wild dingos are also generally crossbred with dogs. He reckons the couple of the progeny he kept are the best working dogs he ever owned! He has up to 10,000 sheep on his farm so he knows a thing or two about working dogs!
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There is a herding group in my obedience club, and there are a variety of breeds active in the group. One of the best dogs happens to be a SHELTIE. He has gone HIT at least once over Border Collies, and was 3rd in the top ten herding Shelties for 2006. Statistics aren't out yet for 2007. And his owner just this year bought a puppy from a breeder called "Just Dandy" who owns the top herding Shelties in the country, according to my firends.

 

Another member has a working farm and only uses Corgis to work with her.

 

Bouviers (my other breed) are intense on sheep as they are drovers rather than herders. Herding is only one of their original purposes as all around farm dogs and protectors.

 

Other breeds in our herding group are Tervs, Mals, Briards, Rottweilers, GSDs, Aussies, Collies. The Border Collie folks tend to stick together, as their dogs are so much better. Most of these folks in the group are trying to maintain their breed's original purpose, and have fun with it.

 

Kathy Robbins

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Claudia Frank (Jus Dandy) has won one or more Open USBCHA arena-venue trials with a Sheltie. She's a doggone good handler. I may not agree with her participation and support of AKC/BCSA, but I am impressed by how she treats and handles her dogs, and she is a very friendly and welcoming lady.

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There is a herding group in my obedience club, and there are a variety of breeds active in the group. One of the best dogs happens to be a SHELTIE. He has gone HIT at least once over Border Collies, and was 3rd in the top ten herding Shelties for 2006. Statistics aren't out yet for 2007. And his owner just this year bought a puppy from a breeder called "Just Dandy" who owns the top herding Shelties in the country, according to my firends.

 

Another member has a working farm and only uses Corgis to work with her.

 

Bouviers (my other breed) are intense on sheep as they are drovers rather than herders. Herding is only one of their original purposes as all around farm dogs and protectors.

 

Other breeds in our herding group are Tervs, Mals, Briards, Rottweilers, GSDs, Aussies, Collies. The Border Collie folks tend to stick together, as their dogs are so much better. Most of these folks in the group are trying to maintain their breed's original purpose, and have fun with it.

 

Kathy Robbins

 

Kathy,

No one is saying that these other breeds can't work--just that they won't work to the same standard that a well-bred working border collie will. Claudia Frank has both shelties and border collies and is an excellent hander, and Sue is right that she has won over border collies with a sheltie (whose name escapes me at the moment) in arena-trial settings, but I've never seen her take one of her shelties out on the open trial field. The fact that a sheltie or some other breed has gone HIT (which of course implies AKC or AHBA trials) over border collies doesn't mean that the breed as a whole is producing excellent workers. There are indeed folks who are trying hard to keep the working ability (or more correctly, trying to put it back in) in whatever their breed of choice is, and I give them credit for trying to repair the damage that has been done by years of conformation showing. It stands to reason that if you love a particular breed and that's what you want to own, then you might want to make the best of that breed (if you're a breeder anyway) and there are a number of show breeders who are doing just that. But they also recognize that as long as they work within the confines of the AKC, they will never have any real say in how performance titles should be awarded (or on the level of difficulty of the testing) or whether there should be a performance requirement before a dog can get is conformation championship.

 

If I loved another breed as much as I do my border collies, I would certainly own one, and would do whatever I could to work it to its fullest potential. In fact, I did have another breed I loved--the Belgian tervuren, but the breed had changed so much in the 25 years from when my family owned one till I decided to get my own dog that I just couldn't do it (they no longer seemed to be the dog of my childhood). I toyed with the idea of getting a malinois as something close to what I had loved, but relatively untouched compared to the terv. I ended up with a border collie x Aussie (after looking at a bouvier in the same rescue), which is what ultimately led me to border collies, but I could just as easily have ended up with a bouvier or a malinois, and no doubt I'd be doing all I could with either of those breeds. You're right that ultimately it's all about enjoying your particular dog, no matter what the breed, and if you are so inclined, then also helping it to reach it's fullest potential for whatever heritage the breed has....

 

J.

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Sounds like the book "Dusty" - one of my all time favs.

Julie

 

Cant say I have heard of this book.

 

The dingo daddy in this case was shot by the local farmers but his progeny was kept and made very good working dogs.

 

I like the look of the Australian Koolie, they are only bred for working ability and probably represent what the BC people on this site would have wished for the BC.

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