Jump to content
BC Boards

Any other herding breed that still works?


Recommended Posts

Er, SunnyDay... I live on Lopez. And yes, Julie Matthews is the real thing, atlthough she left after burning too many bridges here. I graze the land where that sheep trial was...

 

Totally off-topic, but it's wierd to see the name of this little island appear on the boards!

 

For the topic: my mom's Lab thinks she's a herding dog. Of course, she has NO idea what she's doing, but hey- the sheep moved when she ran around them. Being Lab, she's more interested in sheep poop than sheep... ick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 57
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Er, SunnyDay... I live on Lopez. And yes, Julie Matthews is the real thing, atlthough she left after burning too many bridges here.

 

Yeah, I remember hearing about some of those politics from my MIL. (My husband's parents live on Lopez! Small world! That island is my idea of paradise...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I have read/been told, the Koolie is a loose eyed dog, so it wouldn't really look like a BC working. I have only seen a few videos, and none of the dogs appeared to be very calm- but they are not that well publicized, so who knows.

 

 

Cant say I have heard of this book.

 

The dingo daddy in this case was shot by the local farmers but his progeny was kept and made very good working dogs.

 

I like the look of the Australian Koolie, they are only bred for working ability and probably represent what the BC people on this site would have wished for the BC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Julie, I hope I didn't give you or anyone else the impression that I thought any of these other breeds could meet Border Collie herding standards! I have one very old Bouvier, and three young Border Collies, and I doubt that I will ever own anything else but a Border Collie in the future! It was just that the OP asked specifically about Shelties, and yes there are a few folks out there who are trying to bring back the original abilities of their breeds. I will say that the day that Craig's Sheltie Jazz beat Mary Ann's Tan for HIT, it was either an ASCA or AHBA trial, based on what is available around here. At the time Mary Ann had not ever entered an AKC trial. I can't imagine using Shelties on a real working ranch or farm, either. But some of these other dogs can do it at the level of "having fun". And I am glad to see it.

 

Kathy Robbins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I have read/been told, the Koolie is a loose eyed dog, so it wouldn't really look like a BC working. I have only seen a few videos, and none of the dogs appeared to be very calm- but they are not that well publicized, so who knows.

 

I train with some Koolies. Like BCs some are calm some are excitable and they don't look like BCs working. They also vary with the amount of eye they have, though none I have seen have come anywhere near a BC for eye. There are some here competing in 3 sheep competently and also in yard, utility and cattle trials. I wouldn't say they have less instinct and ability than a BC but just a different working style and bred to be and all round worker for paddocks and yards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kathy,

No one is saying that these other breeds can't work--just that they won't work to the same standard that a well-bred working border collie will.

 

I am not quite sure what you are meaning here. Different breeds were developed differently for different herding styles, so comparing them to what a Border Collie was developed for isn't necessarily fair. You can be comparing apples to oranges in some cases.

 

In Europe, sheepherding is different than in the U.K. They didn't have huge tracks of grazing areas like the U.K. and North America. Often the grazing fields were right in the middle of the grainfields, hence breeds like the Belgians, etc were developed with a tending style of working- they were the moving fences that kept the sheep on the road and out of the grain fields and in the grazing fields and out of the grain fields. The sheep followed the shepherds from one grazing area to another. A lot of breeds in Europe were bred to be multi-purpose, and they didn't have the type of farming that is seen in the U.K. . Although we can argue that the Border Collie has been refined to be the premier of the herding breeds, I don't think we can compare say the Belgian Sheepdogs to the Border Collie because their styles are totally different. Most definitely some of the breeds that were/are used for working stock like the Border Collie is used, are not as efficient.

 

A friend of mine has a wonderful Belgian Malinois bitch and her working ability is awesome if you judge her on what style she is supposed to work as - as a tending breed. She isn't suppose to work like a Border Collie and we don't expect her to. She is great stock sense for what she is supposed to do. She works her lines well, doesn't rattle the sheep, she keeps well off the sheep, but if they try to go outside the defined area, she makes sure they don't. However, I don't compare her to how a Border Collie works because they are totally different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not quite sure what you are meaning here. Different breeds were developed differently for different herding styles, so comparing them to what a Border Collie was developed for isn't necessarily fair. You can be comparing apples to oranges in some cases.

Yes, I understand that different breeds were developed for different needs (I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, after all). But the fact is that most of the other herding venues, most notably AKC, don't truly subscribe to the "other uses" belief when it comes to setting performance requirements for these dogs (and if you don't believe me, ask the folks who do it--you don't see the Belgians running the C course, which is rarely offered, they run A and B, and B is simply a miniature "border collie course"). But that's not really my point anyway, so I'll rephrase it to make myself clearer. After years and years of being bred to a conformation standard, most (if not nearly all) of the other herding breeds retain very little of the instinct/ability that made them useful for whatever their original intended purpose. When I say "work to the high standard of a border collie" I don't mean a corgi has to go out and run a "border collie course" I mean the corgi in general can't work to a high standard, period (and in the case of the corgi, that standard would in actuality be droving).

 

The funny thing is, If you say to a corgi person (surely not all corgi people, but at least one I've talked to in person) "I don't understand why someone would try to run a corgi on a style course more suited to a 'big field' dog" you're could well be responded to with some vehemence, because most people interpret such a comment as a "putting down" of their breed rather than an honest assessment of what that breed was meant to do in the first place.

 

And I think you can do some comparison between the various breeds, because the border collie was/is also used to do the type of work that many of the other breeds were developed for (in addition to gathering sheep off the hill). I don't know how many times I've heard, in defense of breed X vs. the border collie, that the border collie is useful only in large fields and all those other breeds are useful and necessary in close quarters because a border collie just can't do that work. It gets tiresome hearing that. If you want to justify having your breed of choice, just say "It's my breed of choice," and go on. My standard answer to the above is twofold: (1) we start border collies close in, so of necessity they do learn to do the close work, and (2) I don't have a separate dog or breed of dog to do the close work that needs done on my farm--the same dogs who run the open trial courses and do the big gathers also do the pen and chute work here, and generally that's the case on most farms. The variety of working styles available in the border collie breed as a whole means that you can cover a range of styles that are also exhibited by other breeds. One of the common misconceptions that is repeated often on Herders-L is that border collies move stock *only* using their eye--that is, they are eye dogs and nothing else. But if you talk to top handlers, most prefer looser eyed border collies (i.e., border collies that work more like a lot of the other loose-eyed upright breeds) because they are easier to place anywhere you want to get extreme precision in the trial field and they may be more effective on certain types of sheep (those that see eye as threat and therefore are more inclined to turn and fight). These folks don't find it necessary to go get another *breed* they just look for a dog within their breed whose working style is what they want.

 

Anyway, this post sort of goes all over the place, but my point was never to "dis" the other breeds, rather to point out that the border collie is one among a handful of breeds in which breeders have actively been breeding for working ability *all along* and so the talent level in the breed as a whole is higher than what you'll find in other herding breeds as a whole. You will find talented individuals and even lines in breeds that have been bred for conformation for years, but I think it's safe to say that it's much more of a crap shoot to buy a pup from some other herding breed and expect you'll end up with a talented working dog than if you choose a pup from a breed that has been purpose-bred all along. That's all.

 

Again, for the record, if someone prefers another breed of working dog, there's no reason not to get a dog from that breed and work it. I just think you need to go in with your eyes open and recognize that for most other breeds, there has not been a continuous effort at purpose-breeding but rather an attempt to "put back in" what was taken out by years of breeding to a conformation standard. So you're starting with a "lower bar" to begin with. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you realize it.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...