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r b m
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When playing fetch or frisbee, my girl never brings the object all the back to me(except when we're inside) She'll stop about 5-10 yards away, lie down, release the ball right next to her nose and wait there. I have tried treats, praise and second ball. I have also tried backing up or walking away but she'll constantly keep this even distance. Every now and then I can coax her to a few yards from me, but it's rare. I'd also like to have her not lie down when she releases it.. has anyone had a similar issue?

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YES!! Our new boy does close to the same thing. We've been working with throwing the ball a very short distance (like a foot) so that when he drops it, it's at our feet anyway. I just started to give the fetch command (we use "bring it") just as he turns back toward us but before he's dropped it. It's taking some time, but there is definite progress.

 

I think the real trick is not to let her rehearse the behavior you don't want, which means not throwing the ball or Frisbee far enough away that she has the option to stop ten feet away.

 

The other thing that I read about was teaching the fetch via a back-chain--thus start with the "give" and get that really solid, then teach the "take" adn then the "retrieve". I"ve been doing this in tandem with the above.

 

Someone also suggested training the fetch when you are sitting or crouching rather than standing.

 

And you could always up the ante with the treats--move to something like roast beef--if she's really treat motivated--our boy isn't really, so that hasn't worked for us. And definitely don't retrieve the ball from her and throw it again (then she's the one who's got you trained to fetch :rolleyes: I learned that one the hard way....)

 

There's also a pretty good book out there called Positively Fetching that explains teaching the fetch (more from the perspective of competition obedience, but the basic process would work the same.)

 

Good luck

Robin

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Yeah, I need to work on her give(or drop) She's somewhat hesitant to give up the ball at first. She doesn't have that high of a food drive but my trainer uses Spam for the "special" treats. Sounds gross and probably isn't the best for your dog, I know, but dogs frickin' love that stuff and it's cheap.

 

I wonder if anyone has an insight on why she does this? Is it part of her herding instinct? Is she playing a game with me, controlling me?

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If I have one that wants to drop the toy a few feet away, I wait. And wait. Usually they'll pick it up, and drop it closer. I wait until the object is where *I* want it to be. I don't care if they drop it at my feet (or even as much as a foot away) or put it in my hand. I have one that goes to hand, two that go to my feet. It usually doesn't take long to get the point across. If they don't bring the ball, they don't get to play.

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So I've waited before... a loong time or what seemed to be a long time and she'll just lay there. In fact, I take her to my soccer practices and she'll lay in the same spot for hours. I guess it doesn't help that someone eventually comes over and throws the ball for her. She has us all trained!!

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Originally posted by Carson Crazies:

If I have one that wants to drop the toy a few feet away, I wait. And wait. Usually they'll pick it up, and drop it closer. It usually doesn't take long to get the point across. If they don't bring the ball, they don't get to play.

LOL, that's exactly what I did. But then Violet started bringing her ball to OH when he was sitting on the couch in his baseball-game-induced trance-like state. Which of course produced no response, as any TV sports widow could've predicted.

 

So now Violet's learned to entertain herself, while OH watches the game, by repeatedly bouncing the ball off his inert form and catching it in the air.

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Our Briar did this when we first brought her home. We taught her "Closer". Now when she drops it too far off we say "closer", she goes back for the ball and brings it all the way to our feet. Stopping the game and walking away and saying "Closer" a few times was all it took.

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Fergie tried that. I just looked at her and said, "That's not where I am." She picked up the ball and brought it closer. Now, I can use the phrase as many times as I want, depending on how close I want the ball that time. Like, not in the mud.

 

If I ignore her and just look at the ball, so does she. I do admit that I use my incredulous tone when I use my phrase.

 

Also, when she almost gives the ball but then grabs it up as I reach, I say, "Please" in my Mommy tone. She drops it; I pick it up and always say, "Thank you," Even my 4-year-old granddaughter is getting good at that one. Because she knows to use those words.

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OK, like I said, I can coax her a few feet at time from time to time. So if I were to try using this to teach her "Closer," how would I cue her that she was doing the right thing? I could use a clicker or verbal cue, but if she's 10 feet away, I can't click->treat unless I tossed food at her. :rolleyes: Any ideas on a good process to teach her this?

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Originally posted by painted_ponies:

So now Violet's learned to entertain herself, while OH watches the game, by repeatedly bouncing the ball off his inert form and catching it in the air.

LMAO!!

 

I use a ball with a rope on it, and when Kessie brings it to me I give it a short tug. She's such a tug addict that even such a "symbolic" tug is better than actually getting chased for the ball, which is what I think they're trying to achieve when they keep it just out of our reach. When I do try to chase her these days, she doesn't run but hammers the ball into my hands, trying to get me to get a hold on it :rolleyes: .

 

Kyla isn't a tug addict (yet), so it's harder with her. There's always a ball lying somewhere in the house, and when she brings one to me I throw it, hoping she'll get the point.

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To teach the command "closer", you need to do it first in a non-play situation. Take her out in the yard with no toys or other distractions. Have a long lead or rope. Start with short distances, 6ft or so. Put her in a down/stay, walk with lead in your hand to desired distance. Give a tug on lead and say closer. If she starts to come towards you, keep saying closer, about half way, put her in a down/stay and repeat. Soon she will understand that the idea is not to neccesarily come to you but to move towards you. That worked for Jackson. He knows the difference between "closer" and "walk up". One is for toys and is directed to me, the other for sheep and is towards the sheep, regardless of where I am. These guys are pretty smart, it amazes me how they can distinguish the same action but with different words for certain situations! Good luck!

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Originally posted by sandra s.:

When I do try to chase her these days, she doesn't run but hammers the ball into my hands, trying to get me to get a hold on it

When I'm in bed or in a chair, Sienna does this too. She'll even make it to the a chair before me and put the ball in the seat. So I know she had it in her! Mind games!

 

The other day I found a great activity for us to do, and it reminded me of why my dog is sometimes smarter than me. The house I live in backs up to a forest. My backyard is a 40 degree slope into a creek bed, littered with rotted branches, giant rocks and other obstacles. I bought a 18 pack of tennis balls over a month ago and we were down our last one. In some form or fashion, they all end up in the backyard. Dreading having to go collect all the balls in this somewhat treacherous landscape(or go buy more tennis balls), I finally put two and two together. I sometimes throw the ball back there for her to retrieve, and she knows "go find it" pretty well. So I had her go collect as many as she could find, which turned out to be 9! I was very proud and felt stupid that I didn't think of this sooner. I bet she did, just waiting for silly human to catch up. :rolleyes:

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Well, for one, she won't lie down when retrieving. That's why you won't do the learning of the command during play. It is when she is going to drop the toy, you tell her closer. The reason for the lie down while teaching is so there is a difference between coming to you, and simply moving closer to you. Once you teach her the command closer, she should move closer very slowly, not like a simple "here". The command "here" means she stops at you. The command "closer" doesn't have a final destination until you say. As far as clicker/treat training, I have no idea as I never clicker/treat train. Sorry. Perhaps some on the board who does can give you the correct way to do that.

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As far as clicker/treat training, I have no idea as I never clicker/treat train. Sorry. Perhaps some on the board who does can give you the correct way to do that.
Then how do you get the dog to know exactly what you want to do? What's the cue?

 

I'm interested because I feel sometimes she will only do things because I have the goodies. I'd like to ween her off this at some point.

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If they do what I want, I say good. If they do what I don't want, it is AAAKK! They learn very fast that AAAKK is bad, and good or no aaakk is good. It has worked on any of the dogs I have ever trained. Since I don't use treats or clickers, they have learned that I will let them know verbally or with body language what I want. For instance, Jackson sometimes doesn't like to lie down when I tell him to if we are playing frizbee. If he is just crouching and not lieing down, I just lean slightly and he goes straight down! And no, I have never gone over and beat him with a 2X4! It was a 2X2! :rolleyes: Okay, just kidding hang the phone up with SPCA!! LOL Any way, the point is, some use clicker/treats, some just treats, and like me nothing but praise or non-praise. So, it is really up to you and what you are comfortable with. And what seems to work best with your dog. Good luck!

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Thanks Linda for your input. Sienna does the same crouch thing when we play ball or frisbee, and I too have to lean over sometimes and tell her to lie down, works like a charm. It's much easier for me to not click/treat, and like I mentioned before, Sienna typically as this "OH, a treat... gobble... thanks! now where's the ball" attitude. Most training books indicate you eventually want to ween off the treats. We recently started agility, and I find myself fumbling around to get a treat ready at the right moment. I know when learning something new, the click/treat positive reinforcemnet method is easy and effective. But I feel comfortable not using it as much for obedience at this time.

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Originally posted by r b m:

We recently started agility, and I find myself fumbling around to get a treat ready at the right moment.

LOL Exactly why I never start the treat deal. Dogs in general and BCs in particular MOST of the time want to please you. But I know there are some dogs who won't do diddly without a treat! But IF you can train without a treat, I feel it is best. Just MHO! I could just imagine trying to get a treat to Jackson for a good outrun! LOL :rolleyes:

 

ETA: Actually, I am trying to imagine Jackson just doing a decent outrun!

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Mine did this for a long time. She learned 'closer' but when she's so focused on the ball, she just freezes. Recently we had a breakthrough. I was trying to figure why she wanted to give certain distance. I realized that she wanted to be ready for the next fetch. As soon as my hand reaches out, she freezes even more and sometimes back up crouching. So I looked away as soon as she fetches the ball ignoring her until she gets closer to me. I didn't move my hands or anything. Then she decided to bring it closer to me knowing she has enough time to drop the ball, back up and get in her position for the next fetch. Weird but it worked.

 

Another thing that made this even better. I added my lab. They always take turn in fetching - one ball. I used to throw a frisbee for the lab, a ball for the BC. Now I use only one ball which they have to share. So Jazzy (BC) knows she doesn't have to hurry up and get set. She brings all the way back to me, drop the ball in my hand and sits and wait for her turn now. I couldn't believe it. As soon as the lab brings the ball back, she's backing up crouching 5 feet away from me getting ready for her turn.

 

It was such an annoying behavior.

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ha, ha ! Dylan is, I am afraid to confess, TERRIBLE. I played ball with Dylan and a lab a few months ago and before I had even thrown the ball, Dylan was half-way across the field while the lab was bouncing around at my feet. I couldn't believe the difference. Dylan wants to be ahead of the ball so he can cut it off. I can throw pretty far but he'll overtake the ball, spin around and catch it as it is coming toward him if he can.This is very important to him ! He knows closer but it involves dropping the ball at 5, then 4, then 3 then 2 then 1 feet away from me before I'll pick it up and throw it again. Recently I have been getting him to go through my legs before I throw which looks cool ( :rolleyes: ), but gives more time for me to throw. He is a perfect gentleman inside - he will put the ball into my hand beautifully. I tried teaching him to give the ball outside but I stood there waiting for about 20 minutes....... Actually, he is not always that bad. And I don't let it bother me too much. Fetch isn't his favourite game anyway. He has much more exciting games to play ! Good luck.

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