Katz on Diane Rehm - Now

[sea4th]

It would be nice to hear some callers who aren't blathering fools kowtowing to him call in. I'm at work. Don't know if I can listen to the show.

[AK dog doc]

When and on what station is it playing? NPR? I don't know if I can call in, but perhaps I might be able to get through...?

[nancy in AZ]

You can try the streaming broadcast right from NPR.org

[bcnewe2]

I was at the dentist reading their magazines yesterday and I read an(didn't really read it only glanced at the title) article about his latest book. They said it was a "cute" read. Don't remember if it was a People or Entertainment weekly. They listed that and the sequel to Marley and me.

 

Sad

Kristen

[jdarling]

Not sure if this will work, but try this: Katz on Diane Rehm

[HighDesertSpice]

It works. I think this his the theme...."On my farm....I grow stories...." He also describes his farm as a working farm, not...a rescue, but a place where animals live healthy......" Just my paraphrase. I'm not really up on this controversy (I don't even know who John Katz is really)--just chiming in.

[sea4th]

Well, I did listen - a little - and I was thoroughly impressed by his sheepdog training methods, which he didn't delve into too much, but did say it required a clicker. Oh yeh!

[Shetlander]

Well, I did listen - a little - and I was thoroughly impressed by his sheepdog training methods, which he didn't delve into too much, but did say it required a clicker. Oh yeh!

 

I didn't catch the show, but I glanced through his book today and came across that amazing comment about the clicker. It was in a thoroughly depressing chapter about Rose. He describes her gettting sick and needing to be hospitalized after she ate some bones. He describes how he was at a loss without her on the farm and was relieved to bring her home after 4 days after the vet. He states the vet instructed him to make sure Rose rested. Yet on the way home, he gets a call from a friend needing help rounding up two heifers who had gotten loose. Even though Rose was just getting over being sick for over 6 days (Katz didn't realize how sick she was at first so there was a delay getting her to the vet), even though the vet had insisted that Rose needed to rest, Katz decides that losing livestock and the risk to motorists meant he should detour on his way home to have Rose (and by extension him) save the day. He says of course Rose is thrilled to be back at work and the job only took 5 minutes. Then when he gets home, he has Rose move some sheep before he finally puts her in a crate to rest.

 

Now, I'm not a farmer and I know losing livestock is not something to be shrugged at. Still I couldn't believe he'd do that to a dog who was just released from the vets after being sick for basically a week. And then working her some more at home. I'll be interested to see if any of his dogs ever make it to age 8 under his care. Isn't that the average lifespan he says dogs have?

 

Here are some of the interesting comments he had in just this one chapter.

 

1. Real farmers don't have Border Collies. They can't afford them and don't have time to train them. So the people who have working BC's are the ones who don't really need them.

 

2. He goes on a little rant about Border Collie Snobs (BCSs). BCSs are always well dressed and "frequently" go to Scotland and Ireland. They have rigid, hyper controlling ways of training a dog how to herd. Every move the dog makes is due to intense and relentless training. Katz describes how he used to watch trainers wait until a dog's head was pointed in a certain direction then click a clicker to mark the behavior, doing this sort of thing over and over.

 

4. Katz on the other hand, allowed Rose to relax and "find her own way" to herd sheep. He says this doesn't make his method better than anyone else's, but he thinks he and Rose are having a much happier time.

 

5. Katz doesn't believe BC's are as smart as people make them out to be. He cites Orson "herding" buses and Rose going after a snowplow blade. He says his labs (both already quite fat to judge by the photos) would never do things like that. He wonders are BC's smart or do they just have amazing instincts? He also wonders what the line is between smart and crazy.

 

6. The title of that chapter is "The Loneliness of Rose" and he talks about how she is mainly interested in the sheep, not so much in people, and tends to be off by herself much of the time. He notes that working dogs aren't like other dogs. He says the more Rose does around the farm, the less she can do in the rest of the world. So she isn't comfortable riding in a car (!), walking in suburbs (ok fine, she may not be used to the traffic and noise there) or going with him to his book signings (I think a fair amount of dogs might have trouble hanging out in a mall, regardless of their lifestyle). In other words, Rose has become increasingly neurotic and insecure anywhere but the farm because she is a working dog who doesn't have time for the regular world.

 

There is also a sort of statement, not a dedication, but on a page all by itself before the book starts that names some professor and "other readers" followed by the sentence "No dogs die in this book." Considering the controversy over A Good Dog, I thought that was a real jab at everyone who disagreed with his treatment of and decision about Orson. Katz might say, no he was just reassuring people that this wouldn't be another sad story.

 

Personally, as I learn more about Border Collies and a tiny bit about sheep herding, I think Katz's stories get sadder all the time.

[nancy]

Wow:

 

1. Real farmers don't have Border Collies. They can't afford them and don't have time to train them. So the people who have working BC's are the ones who don't really need them.

 

I guess it's that all those folks in Yorkshire don't have border collies. Maybe those dogs are rather large black & white dachshunds?

 

I have to admit that lots of people said their dogs weren't border collies; they were working sheep dogs. But, in conversation, they said it was to distinguish them from the Kennel Club gang. They loved the term Barbie collies.

 

So, what does he say "real farmers" have? And what are those dogs (who seem to be running around, biting sheep, and ignoring stragglers) in his video. Well, they do look a tad like small furry huskies to me.

[PSmitty]

I didn't catch the show, but I glanced through his book today and came across that amazing comment about the clicker. It was in a thoroughly depressing chapter about Rose. He describes her gettting sick and needing to be hospitalized after she ate some bones. He describes how he was at a loss without her on the farm and was relieved to bring her home after 4 days after the vet. He states the vet instructed him to make sure Rose rested. Yet on the way home, he gets a call from a friend needing help rounding up two heifers who had gotten loose. Even though Rose was just getting over being sick for over 6 days (Katz didn't realize how sick she was at first so there was a delay getting her to the vet), even though the vet had insisted that Rose needed to rest, Katz decides that losing livestock and the risk to motorists meant he should detour on his way home to have Rose (and by extension him) save the day. He says of course Rose is thrilled to be back at work and the job only took 5 minutes. Then when he gets home, he has Rose move some sheep before he finally puts her in a crate to rest.

 

Now, I'm not a farmer and I know losing livestock is not something to be shrugged at. Still I couldn't believe he'd do that to a dog who was just released from the vets after being sick for basically a week. And then working her some more at home. I'll be interested to see if any of his dogs ever make it to age 8 under his care. Isn't that the average lifespan he says dogs have?

 

Here are some of the interesting comments he had in just this one chapter.

 

1. Real farmers don't have Border Collies. They can't afford them and don't have time to train them. So the people who have working BC's are the ones who don't really need them.

 

2. He goes on a little rant about Border Collie Snobs (BCSs). BCSs are always well dressed and "frequently" go to Scotland and Ireland. They have rigid, hyper controlling ways of training a dog how to herd. Every move the dog makes is due to intense and relentless training. Katz describes how he used to watch trainers wait until a dog's head was pointed in a certain direction then click a clicker to mark the behavior, doing this sort of thing over and over.

 

4. Katz on the other hand, allowed Rose to relax and "find her own way" to herd sheep. He says this doesn't make his method better than anyone else's, but he thinks he and Rose are having a much happier time.

 

5. Katz doesn't believe BC's are as smart as people make them out to be. He cites Orson "herding" buses and Rose going after a snowplow blade. He says his labs (both already quite fat to judge by the photos) would never do things like that. He wonders are BC's smart or do they just have amazing instincts? He also wonders what the line is between smart and crazy.

 

6. The title of that chapter is "The Loneliness of Rose" and he talks about how she is mainly interested in the sheep, not so much in people, and tends to be off by herself much of the time. He notes that working dogs aren't like other dogs. He says the more Rose does around the farm, the less she can do in the rest of the world. So she isn't comfortable riding in a car (!), walking in suburbs (ok fine, she may not be used to the traffic and noise there) or going with him to his book signings (I think a fair amount of dogs might have trouble hanging out in a mall, regardless of their lifestyle). In other words, Rose has become increasingly neurotic and insecure anywhere but the farm because she is a working dog who doesn't have time for the regular world.

 

There is also a sort of statement, not a dedication, but on a page all by itself before the book starts that names some professor and "other readers" followed by the sentence "No dogs die in this book." Considering the controversy over A Good Dog, I thought that was a real jab at everyone who disagreed with his treatment of and decision about Orson. Katz might say, no he was just reassuring people that this wouldn't be another sad story.

 

Personally, as I learn more about Border Collies and a tiny bit about sheep herding, I think Katz's stories get sadder all the time.

 

The man appears to be an ass. Or is that insulting to the ass?

[Bill Fosher]

Here are some of the interesting comments he had in just this one chapter.

 

1. Real farmers don't have Border Collies. They can't afford them and don't have time to train them. So the people who have working BC's are the ones who don't really need them.

 

Give the devil his due. He's got a point on this one, at least in the US. Of course if he uses the same absolute terms that you do, we can find plenty of examples that disprove him. I would be one. But as a generality, the vast majority of sheep operations in the US do not use working Border collies, and when I've talked with the owners of the operations, they have said essentially that they can't afford a working dog and don't have time to train (or more usually, "deal with") one.

 

When I go to dog trials, and am one of a very small group (>5 percent?) who got sheep and then got a working dog to help with the sheep. The largest number of people at sheepdog trials went the other way 'round. Got the sheep to help with the dog's mental state. (Which, incidentally, was Katz's path as well.) This is not to say that some of the people who got sheep for their dogs aren't good shepherds. Some of them certainly are, but it does illustrate the point that for many, many owners of working dogs, the farm exists only to benefit the dogs, and perhaps to help offset its own costs of operation.

 

I have been looking for a trained working dog that would suit a farmer that I know for three years becuase he knows he needs one but also knows he can't train one. I thought I had one for him, but the price tag ($2,500) put him off. The real problem is that farmers generally don't put a value on their time, so they see the $2,500 plus food and vet care as pure cost, rather than a path to greater productivity. Unfortunately, many of these same farmers would think nothing of borrowing $100,000 or more to buy machinery.

[Eileen Stein]

When I go to dog trials, and am one of a very small group (>5 percent?) who got sheep and then got a working dog to help with the sheep.

 

I think this may be more true in the Northeast than elsewhere. But it is certainly way more true now than when I was first going to trials -- at that time I think the figures would be reversed. Then too, lots of farmers with dogs don't trial, so the trial stats wouldn't give a true picture.

 

But I'm sure the statement Katz made is definitely true in the area where he lives, which I gather is pretty hardscrabble.

[Bill Fosher]

A side point here, but the average size of a sheep flock in the US is about 75 breeding age animals at the last census of which I am aware, which was released in 2005 and probably largely based on 2004 numbers. When you consider that there are many operations with many thousands of head, that means that there are many times that many with five, 10, 15, or 20 to offset those big flocks.

 

There are 10x more sheep flocks East of the Mississippi than west of it, but something like 20x more sheep west than east.

 

If I'm remembering the numbers correctly.

[Kitch]

I think this may be more true in the Northeast than elsewhere. *snip*

But I'm sure the statement Katz made is definitely true in the area where he lives, which I gather is pretty hardscrabble.

 

 

Possibly - farms in the notheast (of any kind) are becoming more and more rare. Got to make room for the cookie cutter developments.

 

 

Katz farm is in a rural area of upstate NY which still has a lot of open land and farming - much of it dairy. But is isn't a poor as he makes out, much of that he exaggerates for dramatic effect, I guess. It isn't much different than any other rural area I've been to - much of it farmers with a range of well-off to poorer farms. I live in that area and it annoys me that he seems to imply that "these poor people can barely make ends meet and would be lost without my help"

 

But I could be taking it a bit personally.

[Black Watch Debatable]

Here are some of the interesting comments he had in just this one chapter.

 

1. Real farmers don't have Border Collies. They can't afford them and don't have time to train them. So the people who have working BC's are the ones who don't really need them.

 

See, and my first take on this was, "Katz is nuts --- everybody with cattle has working dogs!"

 

This may be partly a regional thing, but everyone I've ever known who has more than a couple head of cattle uses dogs to some extent. The dogs may be well-bred border collies or creepy little blue heelers so inbred one or two are missing an eye, and in some cases the cattle are used primarily for roping or cutting or team penning, but everybody seems to use dogs. Up in Central California there are some great working Aussies --- I know one cattle rancher who uses Aussies or border collies depending on the terrain. And I've never seen a big flock of sheep ["big" meaning several thousand -- don't laugh, Australians] that didn't have some halfway competent-looking dog or two working the fringes.

 

Geri or someone else who knows first-hand can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but the Red Bluff dogs, as far as I know, don't all sell to trialers. That Patch dog that sold for $23,000 was bought to work cattle.

 

Lets see if this works:

 

 

If there's a calendar, well, there must be a ton of 'em, right? (I have this one hanging on my wall --- love his stuff. Here is a fave dog shot. Admit it, that photo makes you want to jump in the air and point your toes.)

[HighDesertSpice]

Not a rancher or a trialer, but there are definitely herding dogs on farms and ranches here in ID. Take a look at "Mountain Man" on Flickr as he does a nice job photo documenting some sheep ranch operations with both herding bc's and guard dogs. For sure the small farmers and ranchers in SW ID have bc's and various mixes, but whether they use them specifically for managing sheep, i don't know for sure. I DO know of small cattle ranches here and in OR which do.

[PSmitty]

Admit it, that photo makes you want to jump in the air and point your toes.

 

I must be bored, or easily amused today. That just tickled me to pieces!

[Black Watch Debatable]

Look, he's watching us! [see menu on right.] Dude, this is a measure of self-absorption that would glaze over the eyes of Narcissus. [^TMTom Stoppard.]

 

Look, videos!

 

 

 

Goes to show what you can do without that nasty clicker-training the border collie snobs use on their poor mindless robots.

[MrSnappy]

Holy sh- wow. Creepy stalker Katz. The worst kind of cats.

 

RDM

[PSmitty]

Look, he's watching us! [see menu on right.] Dude, this is a measure of self-absorption that would glaze over the eyes of Narcissus. [^TMTom Stoppard.]

 

I am speechless. Wow, even bad press is press, right?

[mbc1963]

I am speechless. Wow, even bad press is press, right?

 

Well, to be fair... maybe he's able to take criticism like a man?

 

I was horrified and couldn't read past the chapter where Katz gave Homer away... and couldn't even START the last book about Orson. But maybe this is a kind of self-aware, bemused way of admitting that not EVERYONE thinks the guy is great?

 

Mary

[MrSnappy]

I think that like all savvy self marketers, Katz recognizes that controversy makes for more press. Like that senator or whatever that tied his Irish Setter's crate to the roof of the family car for 12 hours 20 years ago. People are making a big fuss out of it now. People like controversy, Katz likes people to be aware of him; ergo Katz likes that we talk about him.

 

RDM

[Eileen Stein]

Actually, I think it's because those sources are cited in Katz's Wikipedia article. Katz fought like hell to get them removed (if you click on "Discussion" at the top of the article, you'll end up here, where you can see the stuff he posted on the article about him, which apparently the Wikipedia folks moved off.) Anyway, he kept taking them down, and others kept putting them back, and finally his objections were overruled by whoever makes those decisions for Wikipedia, and the cites got left in the article. He probably figures it will make him look less peevish to include them on his website. Then again, it's probably at least partly because he's "proud of being controversial" -- if there's anything Katz is about, it's self-promotion.

 

ETA: Those long arguments he wrote on Wikipedia are interesting because they show what strange ideas he has about why he is disapproved of. I think he is truly incapable of hearing anything that anyone says.

[TaliC2007]

I found this on wikipedia about him. Sorry if this was already posted. I like mystery novel's, which he also apparently writes, and I was trying to see which books he wrote and if I had read any of them and ran across this.

 

In the Border Collie Community

Katz's books about dogs have received favorable reviews in the literary press[11], but have been met with a hostile reaction in segments of the border collie community. Notable examples of this criticism have included Donald McCaig's review of The Dog's of Bedlam Farm in The Bark magazine[12] and Penny Tose's review of Katz on Dogs in The American Border Collie magazine[13], as well as comments on various Internet forums such as the BC Boards[14] and the Working Stockdog Forum[15]. Critics have faulted Katz for a fundamental lack of understanding of the dogs and their work and for offering misguided training advice while professing an expertise that he in fact lacks.[16]. Katz has claimed to enjoy "riling the border collie snobs,"[17] but criticism of the author intensified after he gave away his second border collie and had the first killed for behavioral problems.[18]

[TaliC2007]

oops, guess I should read the 2nd page of posts before posting.