The work is the standard

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What kind of dog is this?

 

 

Well, actually, it's a well-bred working English Shepherd named Shooter.

 

 

I bet even a novice could tell there's a difference in the way that dog is approaching his stock. The English Shepherd website describes how English Shepherds came from the working dogs that shepherds brought to this country from the UK and other countries, before the Border Collie was developed. This breed developed as a working stockdog with NO trial standard, while the Border Collie was being improved through the more exacting standards of work that the trial imposed upon it. The work standard is the ONLY difference between these two breeds' development.

 

Today, the English Shepherd is a nice all-around farm dog, yard dog, even drover dog, but for power and versatility (on stock) a commercial farmer is going to want what the Border Collie offers. Not to mention the agility, obedience, flyball, etc, trainers.

 

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction. I think without continuing to breed to the trial standard will transform the breed to its lowest genetic common denominator, and you can look to the English Shepherds for a glimpse of that. Now, I adore ES's, but I don't have them for a reason - WORKING standard-bred Border Collies are really best at everything I need them to do.

[Keegan's Mom]

Well said Becca. It amazing the difference in the stance of the English Shepherd working the cattle. I wonder how it can get them to really move because it looks more like play than work to the dog????

 

But of course, you know much more about that than I do and I was glad to see your post!!!! I've seen some Border Collies do amazing things that makes me still awe over the breed.

[border_collie_crazy]

I agree well said even I can see the huge differnce in that approach lol that dog looks like "wanna play?!" lol I mean Misty(a cattle bred BC) for the most part is wildy playing with a grin on her face, but when she see geese for example that she wants to work, that changes quick, and she gets this "get right down to buisness" kinda additude

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I forgot to post the source for those pics, rather rude of me.

 

History: http://www.englishshepherd.org/breedinfo.htm

 

Shooter's page:

http://www.englishshepherd.org/Shooter/Shooter.htm

 

More pictures of working English Shepherds:

http://www.englishshepherd.org/farmdog/photofarm.htm

[Denise Wall]

This is an excellent example, Becca. English shepherds are a breed that looks very much like (the public perception of) a border collie physically but their working styles are very, very different. In almost all of the pictures on the website you list, the dogs' tails are in the air, and their demeanor is not the one of intensity or determination that border collies should show. They remind me much more of livestock guardian dogs in their demeanor than border collies.

[Keegan's Mom]

I just don't see the cattle being very intimidated and if they wanted to be difficult...how would this dog really get them moving?

[tucknjill]

Oh my I am on the english shepherd webpage...

[Denise Wall]

I thought that was you.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You know, I kept thinking I knew that person. I thought maybe I'd met her on a rescue transfer!

 

I'm such a fluffbrain that context is everything.

 

So, in general terms, what is your impression of an English Shepherd's style versus a Border Collie?

[Pipedream Farm]

You look so young. :eek:

 

[tucknjill]

Very upstanding, no eye, alot use barking to move stock...Less serious attitude. I did 33 dogs that day in the snow, most weighed like 40-60 lbs and most were on a long line pulling barking and frothing at my sheep. My back was KILLING me that night ugh. Mostly a nice bunch of people though.

[nancy]

Sam, where are you in all that? If I knew you, I might could maybe find you. But I'm both nosy and old enough to not be embarrassed about it. Give us poor folk the links!

[tucknjill]

umm click on the fist link Becca listed above, then go to photos, then farm dogs. I am the girl listed with Rosyln the dog I think.

[Pipedream Farm]

Forget that, let me help.

 

Introducing the very young and stylish Sam

 

 

She's the one wearing the boots.

[Shoofly]

Yes, those are boots, not snow skis......

 

[tucknjill]

yall can both kiss my grits!

[Joan]

Originally posted by tucknjill:

umm click on the fist link Becca listed above, then go to photos, then farm dogs. I am the girl listed with Rosyln the dog I think.

Sam, is that Karen in the photo right below you?

 

I enjoyed the trial this weekend! :cool:

[Erin Hischke]

You'll have to forgive me as I'm new to this board and have little experience on this type of board so if I perform some faux-paz please excuse it.

 

My name is Erin Hischke and the black and white ES pictured previously is ours.

 

Someone said this:

 

Today, the English Shepherd is a nice all-around farm dog, yard dog, even drover dog, but for power and versatility (on stock) a commercial farmer is going to want what the Border Collie offers. Not to mention the agility, obedience, flyball, etc, trainers.

 

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction. I think without continuing to breed to the trial standard will transform the breed to its lowest genetic common denominator, and you can look to the English Shepherds for a glimpse of that. Now, I adore ES's, but I don't have them for a reason - WORKING standard-bred Border Collies are really best at everything I need them to do. [/QB]

 

I have to disagree that the ES lacks the power and versatility needed.... Our ES has been known to run in front of a herd of heifers and stop them on a dime. He also herds the chickens gently out of the garden. Our ES and past ES have been used on our large farm with great success. We have a very useful farm tool that saves us time and money and also a wonderful companion who is content to warm our feet and lick the tears from the kids' faces.

 

I know of ES who work well on all kinds of farms and ranches. Versatility is the ES's forte. This is why they are called an "all-around farmdog". They can work many different kinds of stock as well as guard their pack and have excellent hunting and tracking skills.

 

I understand that there have been some discussions about the differences between ES and BC. I thought I would tell you about our dog and ES in general and then you could draw inferences on your own.

 

To save time and effort, I'll first send you to our homepage--it's bare bones but we're dairy farmers so not a lot of time to learn

fancy web paging. http://www.geocities.com/danhischke

 

This page shows the versatility of Shooter:

http://www.geocities.com/danhischke/workingdogs

 

I have also written an article about our life with our dogs:

http://www.geocities.com/danhischke/EnglishShepherdLife.html

 

That article was written for Stockdogs Magazine, so I made special effort to point out the differences in training an English shepherd

vs. training other types of stockdogs.

 

In addition to this information, I'll describe Shooter. Keep in mind, there is a vast diversity in ES because of the working standard. This is because ES have been bred to function on farms and some farms have different stock/herding requirements than others.

 

Shooter is a very powerful, confident, bossy, intelligent, hard-headed, tough worker. He is not an obedience champ (although many ES are great at obedience)! If you ask him

to sit for no reason, he'll often ask *why?*. He is very into rules, routine, and pack order. He knows what is ordinary and tries to keep things ordinary. The best part of this behavior is that if we are gone and the cattle get out, he puts them back in with no direction. To an ES owner working independently means working while the owner is off the premises--not while the owner is out of sight.

 

ES are very bonded to and thus are very protective of their people and pack (pack includes all members of the family as well as livestock, cats, and poultry). Personally, I think this is the most useful function of the

dog. If we go into the pasture to heat check or do vet work, Shooter keeps a 10-ft. radius around us so that none of the animals are up rubbing on us. He protects us and the kids. In addition, if we have a sick cow, he will keep the same radius clear around her to protect her from the prods and pokes of onlooking cattle.

 

I recently placed a pup on a dairy farm that raises breeding stock. There were many bulls on the farm. Holstein bulls are notably nasty.

I picked them the most bossy powerful pup in the litter. Now at 5-months-old the bulls can be fed more peacefully. The owner knows that the pup has his back and will protect him at all costs.

 

Shooter does not allow people whom he perceives to be a threat play roughly with our children. He will not allow anything to harm them.

 

Shooter has very little prey drive (most ES are higher in prey drive than he is). He works mostly from what we call pack drive. It is an

ES's desire to be beta in your pack. He places himself beneath all the people and enforces their rules on the other pack members. For example, we don't want chickens in the garden. When we see them there we shoo them out. Because Shooter sees this, he knows it is a rule that chickens don't belong in the garden! When we aren't

outside, he enforces that rule. He will go shoo them out of the garden. However, he leaves them alone otherwise.

 

Yes the appearance of herding style is obvious. Shooter is not a prey drive dog. In the photo witht the cows, Dan (husband) told the heifers to move and he's making them move....not with threat of mortal harm like a hard eye gives but with the power of his presence. In the picture featured on

the link he doesn't need to use much power--the heifers are moving willingly. This variability in working intensity is a necessity on our farm. Milk cows need to be handled slowly and carefully for the most part, but heifers can be rank and need a dog to be forceful. He has the ability to slowly guide a milk cow to the parlor and the

power to stop 95 stampeding heifers.

 

ES are very shadowy companions. They want to be with you. On the ES lists we often laugh at how our dogs need to follow us to the bathroom all the time. Shooter's daughter, Sweetheart, wants to be touching you all the time. It is a very strong bond between pack members.

 

The energy level of ES is variable. Shooter is quite laid-back. He is content to lie under the porch when there is nothing to do. But when there is work to be done he's ready to go! We have no problem with him working the stock needlessly. Other ES are more exuberant and many love to play ball. Most are happy to see you when you arrive but also have an off-switch that allows you and them to be happy lounging around.

 

Many ES are agility dogs (Shooter is not very agile--but his daughter Pippi is), they are excellent SAR dogs, many of them express their

compassion in therapy work. This reminds me of my Mom's ES, Susie, who visits us from time to time. One night I was watching a movie and was getting distraught at the sad part. Susie, who generally likes my husband better, came and snuggled with me.

 

It's hard to find words to describe the ES. I will try to put up some links to wonderful ES stories so that you all can get a feel for

the dog.

 

In the meantime, ask any questions you might have. I'll try to check

back here again to answer them.

 

Thanks,

Erin Hischke

Suring, Wisconsin

[Erin Hischke]

This is because they have been selected for herding and guardian duties that are needed on a farm. BCs have been selected to work in a trial situation, which has no need for guardian ability.

 

Erin Hischke, ES breeder, owner of Shooter

For the entire website http://www.geocities.com/danhischke

 

 

Originally posted by C Denise Wall:

This is an excellent example, Becca. English shepherds are a breed that looks very much like (the public perception of) a border collie physically but their working styles are very, very different. In almost all of the pictures on the website you list, the dogs' tails are in the air, and their demeanor is not the one of intensity or determination that border collies should show. They remind me much more of livestock guardian dogs in their demeanor than border collies.

[Erin Hischke]

This is the whole idea. ES don't work from intimidation. They work from power and bossiness. There is no need to stress out the livestock with intimidation. However, if the stock are uncooperative the dog will become drastically bossy and will make them move--with teeth if necessary. But only if necessary!

 

Erin Hischke

 

Originally posted by Keegan's Mom:

I just don't see the cattle being very intimidated and if they wanted to be difficult...how would this dog really get them moving?

[Erin Hischke]

Originally posted by tucknjill:

Very upstanding, no eye, alot use barking to move stock...Less serious attitude. I did 33 dogs that day in the snow, most weighed like 40-60 lbs and most were on a long line pulling barking and frothing at my sheep. My back was KILLING me that night ugh. Mostly a nice bunch of people though.

Of those dogs that day I can't think of one that had ever seen stock before.

 

I was not there, but it was advertised on the ES lists.

 

Erin Hischke

[Erin Hischke]

Links to many ES so you can get a better idea of what an ES is/does.

 

Here's Bob--one of my favorite ES

http://www.nesr.info/rescue/stories/bob.html

 

Here's Atchley's Boo wrapped around a cold newborn calf

http://www.geocities.com/farmshepherd/atchley.html

 

Here's my Mom's kennel with lots of links to follow:

http://www.geocities.com/horsesnewmexcom/cimarron.html

 

Here's Shepherd's Way--the kennel that Shooter came from:

http://www.englishshepherds.net

Raven is Shooter's littermate. Brighton is Shooter's Mom. Dover is Shooter's uncle. Honey is Shooter's half-sister.

 

Here are additional photos of Raven and Honey...

http://www.geocities.com/erinhischke/honeyworking.html

http://www.geocities.com/erinhischke/Ravenworking.html

 

Here is Lilly, an example of the guardian nature of the dogs... My favorite Lilly story is when she rescued a duckling (her owner raises ducks) that fell through the ice. She carried it in her mouth and dropped it at her owner's feet. After a warm bath the duckling was returned to its mama.

http://www.geocities.com/farmcollie1/lillyp.html

 

Have fun!

 

Erin

[Denise Wall]

Erin,

 

Thanks for describing your ES. However:

 

BCs have been selected to work in a trial situation

 

This is simply not true. Border collies have been selected for real work. Trials may be a part of the selection process but real work drives the process.

 

This sentiment I quote from you is one I've read many times on non-border collie boards. It shows a gross misunderstanding of working border collies.

 

Denise

[Erin Hischke]

This is what Rebecca said:

"The English Shepherd website describes how English Shepherds came from the working dogs that shepherds brought to this country from the UK and other countries, before the Border Collie was developed. This breed developed as a working stockdog with NO trial standard, while the Border Collie was being improved through the more exacting standards of work that the trial imposed upon it. The work standard is the ONLY difference between these two breeds' development."

 

I was responding to her post. I'm sorry if I offended you.

 

Erin

 

 

Originally posted by C Denise Wall:

Erin,

 

Thanks for describing your ES. However:

 

BCs have been selected to work in a trial situation

 

This is simply not true. Border collies have been selected for real work. Trials may be a part of the selection process but real work drives the process.

 

This sentiment I quote from you is one I've read many times on non-border collie boards. It shows a gross misunderstanding of working border collies.

 

Denise

[tucknjill]

Nope none of them had seen sheep before save one. All dogs did turn on by the end of the day I believe and I think we all had a good time. I still stand by my earlier statement that it almost killed me though! I dont like working hard and it was pretty tough going sliding in the slush all day.