The work is the standard

[Erin Hischke]

Originally posted by tucknjill:

Nope none of them had seen sheep before save one. All dogs did turn on by the end of the day I believe and I think we all had a good time. I still stand by my earlier statement that it almost killed me though! I dont like working hard and it was pretty tough going sliding in the slush all day.

I heard that the weather was crap. I'll bet it was miserable for you.

 

I wanted to make a point that ES work from pack bonding. The ES that you witnessed were not bonded to your sheep. This makes a BIG difference with ES, IMO. They will treat strange stock like intruders--they are more in "run them off" mode. With their own stock they are more bossy but less vicious--like an older sibling.

 

Two of those pups that day were by Shooter--Nula and Moe. Heather Houlahan was their breeder.

 

Erin

[Eileen Stein]

Hi Erin, welcome to the boards. I had the pleasure of corresponding with Elaine Reynolds about English Shepherds and border collies a few years ago. I mention that because the ES world is small enough that you would probably know her or know of her.

 

The sheepdog trial is designed to test dogs' abilities to do the various things that are required for stock work in the farm, ranch or hill situation. By testing the dogs on tasks which reflect farm work, but are more difficult and require more exacting performance, the trials are a way to measure the dogs as workers, and for breeders to see how they work and how they compare to other dogs assigned the same tasks. We feel that the breed's working ability has improved greatly through this kind of testing, but the the way we assess how well the trial standard has served us is by looking at how the border collie works in real life, not how it does in trials. Most of the best trial dogs are hardworking dogs who are invaluable to their owners on the farm.

 

So while you're right that border collies have not been selected for guardian duties, it's not correct to say that they've been selected to work in a trial situation. They've been selected by trials (among other ways) to work in livestock farming.

[Erin Hischke]

So while you're right that border collies have not been selected for guardian duties, it's not correct to say that they've been selected to work in a trial situation. They've been selected by trials (among other ways) to work in livestock farming. [/QB]

 

I see what you're saying and I agree with you.

 

I realize that many BCs work on ranches and are competent on their turf, but because the *breed* has been selected *partly* on trials, the breed differs from ES, who has not been selected *at all* on trialling. This leaves the ES with more "all-around" farm dog ability. There is a sort of spectrum within the breed--one end being dogs the herding chops of a top notch Aussie (it's really hard to compare them to a BC)and some with the guardian sense of a Pyr. Most fall comfortably in the middle somewhere.

 

I would say this about BCs and trials:

They've been selected by trials (among other ways) to work in livestock *herding*.

 

When I use the word *work* I mean all facets of farm life--not just herding. I need a farm dog to do jobs including, but not limited to, herding. I need the dog to protect the chickens from skunks, not kill the chickens themselves, keep the coyotes and wolves away from the calves, not chase cars, not let the kids get in the road, let me know when the neighbors' bull has broken into our fence, stay home, protect the house from strangers, track my husband's injured deer, etc. These tasks are also valuable on the farm and make the ES our dog of choice.

 

Erin

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hey, welcome! I want to say that I posted out of my closet love of ES's developed through years of interaction with rescues (Jan Hilborn may still remember me). They remind me of my livestock guardian dogs - practically perfect in their "realm" - monarchs of all they survey with everything in control under their paws.

 

I hold by my statement that Border Collies work better for me, however - I need precise work and by power I mean the ability to move stock efficiently and precisely. Straight lines and correct flanks are important when you do rotational grazing. It really SUCKS if you spend all day running temporary fence and the sheep decide to walk through it on the way to the next grazing.

 

I do understand what you mean about the way your dog works. I didn't post that picture and those links to say, na-nah-nee, we've got better dogs than you - it was to illustrate that they DO work very differently even though they can look very similiar. And the difference is simply that some guys in the UK 100 years ago, got together and said, "Hmmm, we'd like our dogs to have a certain range of abilities so we can manage our flocks in a certain way. How do we make sure that the dogs we pick for breeding have those abilities?" From that point the Border Collie separated from the proto-collie stock from which came the English Shepherd, the Welsh Collie, the Australian Sheepdog, the Scotch Collie, etc. Within a few generations the breed was highly recognisable (and desired) as a dog with a certain package of abilities and stock working potential.

 

People who like Border Collies for whatever reason would be disappointed if down the road the breed was turning into English Shepherd-type dogs (back to the pre-working standard genetics) because there's a need for both breeds. I guess inmy reference to sports I wasn't clear enough that it wasn't a reflection on the ability of the dog. It was just a reflection of the reality that most sport people prefer these nutty Border Collies and would be sad to see them changed into something saner. I won't address the working issue as I know everybody's breed works the best! Witness the Kelpie thread in the "AKC Ethics" topic!

 

Your dog is beautiful and a great ambassador of the breed.

 

(This post is dedicated to Spats, Fly, Tux, Tippy, Lad, Royal, and Leroy, rescue English Shepherds now in a variety of companion, sport, and working homes)

[Erin Hischke]

Rebecca said:

"I hold by my statement that Border Collies work better for me, however - I need precise work and by power I mean the ability to move stock efficiently and precisely. Straight lines and correct flanks are important when you do rotational grazing. It really SUCKS if you spend all day running temporary fence and the sheep decide to walk through it on the way to the next grazing."

 

 

I understand that BC works well for you. It sure is good to have a useful dog isn't it? My response was to the reasons you cited in your additional post. Power as defined by extreme presence of the dog and versatility are hallmarks of the ES breed in the herding department.

 

We also rotationally graze. I don't think it's the matter of work that you have that makes your dog best in your situation--it's your species of stock. I think if I had sheep, I might also have a BC. BCs are tops with sheep--doesn't mean an ES can't do it, but BCs have been selected specifically for that task and it makes sense that they excel at it. Since I have cattle and poultry, I need something different. Hard eye and stalking does nothing for these ignorant Holsteins who have had all the fear bred out of them.

 

I really liked how you said that the work is the standard. That is just it for ES. The standard is very loose because the types of work that are available to a dog vary greatly. This is also why the appearance of ES vary so greatly...form follows function.

 

Thanks for giving me the chance to have input on the breed that I so love!

 

Erin

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant by the work being the standard.

 

I was going to say, as a matter of fact, that I felt that if I had a commercial cattle operation I'd probably have a working English Shepherd - they are the dogs I thought collies were when I was growing up. Then I realized that sheepdogs were Border Collies and I wanted to raise sheep. After that I discovered the ES and thought maybe someday there'd be room for one here. Well, my life is a bit too intense probably and Border Collies have changed my expectations of what livestock work is.

 

It's been neat hearing from you - hearing about English Shepherds reinforces the concept of breeding for performance rather than appearance. It would be fun to hear from people who have other breeds with working standards like Huntaways.

[Denise Wall]

Hi Erin,

 

First off I'd like to say I enjoyed going through the different links you provided. You should be proud to have a good dog like Shooter. I can well understand how this type of dog might be more useful to people in some situations than border collies. I've recommended the breed to people on occasion for this reason.

 

I don't think it's the matter of work that you have that makes your dog best in your situation--it's your species of stock. I think if I had sheep, I might also have a BC. BCs are tops with sheep--doesn't mean an ES can't do it, but BCs have been selected specifically for that task and it makes sense that they excel at it. Since I have cattle and poultry, I need something different. Hard eye and stalking does nothing for these ignorant Holsteins who have had all the fear bred out of them.

 

I don't know how many good border collies you've seen on cattle but there are quite a number of them being used quite successfully on cattle (meat and dairy) both in this country and overseas.

 

I have sheep and work cattle with my dogs only occasionally, but perhaps other border collie owners on this board who use them on cattle can comment on the "hard eye" and "stalking" thing.

 

Denise

[Bill Fosher]

I used my first dog, Molly, fairly on a small herd of Holstein-Friesians (springing heifers and dry cows) that were boarded at a farm I used to rent. There were 35 of them.

 

I found that she could control them just fine, but in retrospect I think that we were often working across purposes. Or more accurately, stumbling over each other realizing at the same time that the same thing needed to be done and both trying to do it -- neither one trusting the other to do it correctly.

 

Since then I have had very few occasions to work my dogs on cattle. Molly again saved the day one time when I came across three Angus steers in the highway and used Molly to drive them home. The owners were lassoing them, and leading them home one at a time by tying them to the bumper of a pickup truck. They had done three this way, and (oddly enough) every time they went back for another one the cattle were spookier and further from home. One of the steers had fallen and had a wound on its front leg that looked like it needed stitches to me. I mention this because they were pissed at me for "harassing" their cattle with my dog.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I too hope that someone who uses border collies on cattle will respond to this, but if you're suggesting that border collies won't use their teeth on cattle, that just isn't so. I recently watched some cattle which had never been worked by a dog being taught to respect a dog by a good border collie and one of the best handlers around. These cows had no respect for the dog at all to begin with, and the dog had to go in and grip. By doing that, and immediately releasing the pressure when the cow turned, the dog quickly taught the cows that if they obeyed, all would be well, but if they didn't, they would regret it. The value of the "hard eye and stalking" is that it serves as a reminder (or threat, if you will) to the cattle of what will happen if they don't move, and therefore makes it less likely the next time that the cattle will challenge the dog and have to be gripped again.

 

Denise might even have some pictures . . .

[border_collie_crazy]

Im hoping someone who works cattle with their BCs will jump in too... Misty is from cattle herding lines, her dam works cattle on a ranch, her sir travels around helping out commercial cattle operations. mistys dam saved her owner from a charging bull. a good BC has no problems whatsoever handling cattle. one thig I hav noticed though is that Misty is much tougher, and much more demanding of respect then most of the BCs from sheep lines that I have met...

[L and M Ranch]

Hi all. Just wanted to chime in as someone who uses their Border Collies on cattle. We run around 400 head of cows on a cow/calf operation. We also take in "summer cattle" for other people every year. We also usually have around 200 head of sheep, so I get to see how differently the dogs work the differnt species. We've used Aussies and ACD's in the past and several years ago switched to the Border Collies. I'm still sometimes amazed at how much more we are able to accomplish now with much less effort than with our previous breeds. (This is not to slam the Aussie's or ACD's, just noting the difference we've seen.)

 

The Border Collie's we use tend to use less eye when working cattle than they usually do when working sheep. They know that with sheep you can generally control a few sheep and influence the whole bunch. On cattle, that isn't generally the case. When working a large bunch they generally are very free moving and more upright.

 

I don't feel the way my dogs handle cattle can be interpreted as "threatening" in any way. I love the saying "Respectful but never Fearful". I think it applies to the "relationship" I want my dogs and stock to have towards each other. Cattle or sheep that are fearful are never using their minds to their fullest extent and this usually leads to panic and many other problems. Livestock that is respectful of the dogs (and vice versa) lead to a much more calm group of animals (and people).

 

Sometimes in the teaching of respect though, a line in the sand must be drawn and the other party must know there will be no backing down before respect truly happens. They're making their "request" known and making sure there's no misunderstanding that their willing to back it up with teeth if necessary.

 

I'm sure the reason the Border Collie's I've worked, and the countless numbers of others that I've seen used on ranches all over out here, are capable of handling most kinds of livestock you put in front of them is they've been bred so for so long for "the work".

 

I very much respect that we all have different needs and wants for our dogs and it's a good thing there are different breeds out there to suit most people's needs. To me, that makes it even more obvious for people who don't need or desire the working "style" of the Border Collie's to seek out another breed that suits them better rather than trying to change this one!

 

Laura

[Denise Wall]

Well, I've got tons but here's one of my favorites. The cow goes for her and the dog neatly handles it. End of story. Cow trots off - no more trouble:

 

 

I must confess, I've never worked my dogs on broke cattle so I have no experience with daily work on my own cattle who know a routine. There are lots of cattle in this area and I occasionally help neighbors with theirs. I've used my Tod to break replacement heifers for a friend whose family has around 700 beef cattle. Because they aren't dogbroke, there's normally biting when I work cattle. I don't believe more biting has gone on than was needed to teach the cattle though. In fact, Tod, who was never very good about calming down appropriately after gripping sheep, was real damn smart about it on cattle. But rest assured, there was no hesitation to bite cattle when they needed it.

 

Edited to say, thanks to Laura for jumping in and expressing the POV of a real cattle person using border collies.

 

Denise

[Erin Hischke]

Originally posted by L and M Ranch:

 

I very much respect that we all have different needs and wants for our dogs and it's a good thing there are different breeds out there to suit most people's needs. To me, that makes it even more obvious for people who don't need or desire the working "style" of the Border Collie's to seek out another breed that suits them better rather than trying to change this one!

 

Laura [/QB]

Amen to that! We've recently had a split in the ES breed--mostly instigated by the UKC, who was bought out in 2000 by Wayne Cavenaugh, formerly of the AKC. Now we've got the UKC doing the crap to our breed that the AKC has done to yours in the past. They want to make them into a breed for conformation purposes and to "dumb them down" to be more suitable for pet homes. Many of those who have stayed with the UKC have begun to purport that the ES has no guardian nature--like it's some kind of new theory! All you have to do to see that it has always been an inherent quality of the breed is to go back and read the stories in the archives!

 

Getting off soapbox now.

 

I understand how upsetting it can be when someone wants to come along and change your breed--especially when the sole reason is for monetary gain. Good luck with keeping your dogs the way you like them!

 

Erin

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Hey Erin,

 

I don't see Shooter's pedigree on the pedigree page. I didn't have time to look through all the dogs listed there, but it looks to me like most of the dogs there have two or three generations tops.

 

Is that because that page is only for dogs that have OFA's? Roughly, what's the standard number of complete generations ESD breeders have in their dogs' pedigrees?

[Sue R]

Thanks, Laura, for putting the viewpoint of the Border Collie handler working their dogs on cattle so eloquently.

 

We have two young dogs, no sheep, and calve about 30 head of cows and heifers each year. We have used an Australian Shepherd for help with the stock - he is wonderful but now getting too old for safe work with the cows, but we never could get him to gather, only to drive, which he does superbly.

 

We have also used a half Border Collie/half Aussie (Border Collie in appearance and behavior) who was better at gathering and helpful with driving. But both dogs were taught on the farm and without formal training, and left a lot to be desired.

 

Our two young dogs are now getting training on sheep with a qualified instructor, and lots of at-home work with a couple of young, bottle-raised heifers, and occasional work with the herd. I have great hopes for them as they are bold and willing to grip (the one is; the other is working up the courage to actually make contact). The stock don't always respect them like I would like but are learning to do so as the dogs gain confidence.

 

The joy of having dogs that will gather (especially those flaky little calves) and will be trained to drive as well, is just wonderful.

 

I believe that some Border Collies may not make the best cow dogs but I also believe that many of them will do the work, whether it be sheep, goats, or cattle, or any other form of stock, if they have the proper training to develop the natural talent and instinct.

[Erin Hischke]

Originally posted by Margaret M Wheeler:

Hey Erin,

 

I don't see Shooter's pedigree on the pedigree page. I didn't have time to look through all the dogs listed there, but it looks to me like most of the dogs there have two or three generations tops.

 

Is that because that page is only for dogs that have OFA's? Roughly, what's the standard number of complete generations ESD breeders have in their dogs' pedigrees?

Hmmmm... standard number of generations? I don't understand that question. I think I can go back about 7 or 8 generations on Shooter with no incompletions.

 

Here's Shooter's page:

http://www.geocities.com/farmcollie1/redbank.html

If you follow the links, you'll find pedigrees for his sire and dam.

 

The ES is a farmers' dog. Most farmers don't give a rip about papers or pedigrees--they just want performance. There are many ES who are unregistered but most have a pedigree.

 

I am guessing you are referring to this page.

 

www.nesr.info/pedigrees/pedigrees

 

That page is a hobby page for the website owner, Jan Hilborn. It goes only 2-3 generations because it's her hobby and that's as far back as Sit/Stay.com lets you go. I think she's got some "unknowns" in there because they are unknown to her....not necessarily because the breeders did not know.

 

The ESClub is working on getting a registry together that would include an online database with photos of each dog in the family tree. That will be a great resource for breeders.

 

Erin

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Originally posted by Erin Hischke:

The ES is a farmers' dog. Most farmers don't give a rip about papers or pedigrees--they just want performance. There are many ES who are unregistered but most have a pedigree.

 

Erin

Pedigrees are very important, especially when you are dealing with animals that have been carefully bred over countless generations by folks who have particular things in mind. They are an important part of the proof that you are getting what you pay for when you purchase an animal. Nobody knows that better than a farmer looking to invest in her livestock operation.

 

Without a pedigree, who's to say that I don't have a fine specimen of an English Sheepdog right here?

 

http://www.pbase.com/image/31388823

 

or here?

 

http://www.pbase.com/image/31389414

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think she was saying they don't have a studbook at present, not that they don't have pedigrees. The ISDS Border Collie did not have a studbook until 1955, but breeders and breed admirers had kept their own records just as we do today. Andrew Brown's Old Maid, a collie bitch from the turn of the previous century, was designated ISDS Number 1.

 

Edit: to answer your question (if I may presume), I'd say, in addition to the known parentage of the dog (that is, it was bred AS an English Shepherd, from English Shepherd parents), that you could prove it easily by showing it at work. Just like the Border Collie. A "fine English Shepherd" should show some herding ability, some guarding ability, possibly some hunting skills, etc. He works stock in a distinct way, which would be easily distinguished from the way Border Collies do it, because they've been bred for generations to work in those different ways.

 

Which brings us back to the original point of my post - without that distinctive way of working, what is the Border Collie?

[workindogs]

I have a good dog that has run in Open inconsistently...he has a tendency to scare his stock, works much much better on heavy stock and even better on large groups. He is very strong and has lots of presence and less finesse....qualities that work against us at trials. He is tremendous at farm work....if you need a single caught down or a group packed down chutes for treatment, he's your dog.

 

Numerous people in the "know" have studied his pedigree to no avail....he is a "blue collar" Welsh dog...bred from working Welsh farm dogs....you have to go 4 generations to find any trials dogs. While I am not personally, familiar with his direct ancestors, I am firmly convinced that they were dogs that were used for serious farm work.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Hey Elizabeth,

 

I couldn't agree with you more. Did it seem to you that I meant that a dog needed a prestigous pedigree? If so, I was unclear. Sorry.

 

I'll admit though I wouldn't buy a border collie that didn't have a pedigree from the ABCA or the ISDS, but maybe that's just my politics showing.

[Erin Hischke]

Originally posted by Margaret M Wheeler:

Hey Erin,

 

I don't see Shooter's pedigree on the pedigree page. I didn't have time to look through all the dogs listed there, but it looks to me like most of the dogs there have two or three generations tops.

 

Is that because that page is only for dogs that have OFA's? Roughly, what's the standard number of complete generations ESD breeders have in their dogs' pedigrees?

Sorry. I thought I had answered this one once, but it never appeared here.... I musta punched the wrong button. I'm not used to this board format.

 

Short answer this time. I can go back 7 generations on Shooter with no unknowns. The ES is a farmers' dog and historically farmers don't give a rip about papers, so many lines of ES have been unregistered. However, most ES have pedigrees.

 

I assume that you are referring to this page:

http://www.nesr.info/pedigrees/OFA.html

 

That page is maintained by the NESR webmaster. It has no official use, it is merely a hobby of Jan Hilborn that she put online for us to use. She does not have an elaborate pedigree program; she uses Sit/Stay.com which only allows for three generations. As Jan Hilborn's personal page, their are some "unknowns" in the pedigrees. That means that they are "unknown" to Jan--not necessarily that they are unknown to the breeders.

 

Because Sit/Stay only allows 3 generations, I linked from Shooter's webpage to his sire and dam's pedigrees--that at least gives 4 generations. You can see here: http://www.geocities.com/farmcollie1/redbank.html

 

Erin

[Erin Hischke]

Originally posted by brookcove2:

[QB] I think she was saying they don't have a studbook at present, not that they don't have pedigrees. The ISDS Border Collie did not have a studbook until 1955, but breeders and breed admirers had kept their own records just as we do today. Andrew Brown's Old Maid, a collie bitch from the turn of the previous century, was designated ISDS Number 1.

 

Edit: to answer your question (if I may presume), I'd say, in addition to the known parentage of the dog (that is, it was bred AS an English Shepherd, from English Shepherd parents), that you could prove it easily by showing it at work. Just like the Border Collie. A "fine English Shepherd" should show some herding ability, some guarding ability, possibly some hunting skills, etc. He works stock in a distinct way, which would be easily distinguished from the way Border Collies do it, because they've been bred for generations to work in those different ways.

 

Nicely put. I now got the page to refresh and see that my original page *did* come through, sorry for the repeat.

 

Erin

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'll admit that I would prefer a dog that not only worked to a high standard itself, but had a record of several generations of predecessors that did the same.

 

However, I've seen many times that really decent dogs can come from blue collar lines - it's a testament to the careful breeding of the past. Many times the great ones (at least so I've gathered from my reading) came from a cross of a trial winner to a hill dog that was hard to hold on the trial field. A few generations ago it was rather common for that hill bitch to be unregistered, or have unknown predecessors.

 

Again, the first standard by which I'll judge a dog is the work, then the pedigree. It does often happen that the two go hand in hand, though.

[Erin Hischke]

Without a pedigree, who's to say that I don't have a fine specimen of an English Sheepdog right here?

 

http://www.pbase.com/image/31388823

 

or here?

 

http://www.pbase.com/image/31389414 [/QB]

 

 

Here is the ESC's breed standard--the UKC won't adopt it because it's not in the right *format*. However the membership overwhelmingly voted to adopt it this way. http://www.englishshepherds.net/standard.htm

 

Erin

[juliepoudrier]

I must say it's refreshing to see a standard in which the work takes the lead and also in which the conformation requirements are vague (inclusive) enough as to include a variety of dogs and not just the typical cookie cutter type seen in most KC standards (I especially like the comment in the "ears" section: "Variation in ear set is common and of trivial significance." I guess you don't see all the gluing, tieing up, etc., that the KC border collie folk use to get the "perfect ear"!). Good for the ES folks!

 

J.