Denise Wall Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 How many would you say there are? What is your definition? Is there a definition or is it something people who trial at high levels just "know"? What prompted this is a private post by someone giving me an example of a Big Hat who started out in AKC obedience. This was someone who does pretty well at trials, but would not be considered a Big Hat by most Open handlers. Is it hard to tell who the Big Hats really are if you're not heavily into trialing? How do you decide who to assign this title to? Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Well, it seems to me that there are big hats, Big Hats, and BIG HATS. When you are just getting started with stockdogs, anybody that has a dog that can do useful work, who knows about livestock, and can win/place at trials at pro-novice or open (depending upon how hard such trials are) tends to be considered a big hat. When you are yourself considered a big hat (by the above definition and probably you are still a pro-novice kind of handler), you start thinking that the Big Hats are really just the top open handlers, particularly the ones who finish in the money more often than not, those who have several dogs, breed them, have a real ranch, etc. When you are yourself an open handler (I am definitely speculating here), you start viewing the winners of the National Finals (and a handful of other Big Trials), the judges at the Big Trials, the people who consistently place in Open over a period of many years, etc. as the real BIG HATS. Maybe a good alternate set of definitions would be the BIG HATS (or Big Hats, or big hats) are people from whom you would pay to take a lesson or to get a clinic. Of course, the BIG HATS are always included in the Big Hats who are included in the big hats. Sorry. Too analytical, I know. But it's my job. charlie torre P.S. Perhaps the USBCHA should adopt some "guidelines" regarding how one can win the "BIG HAT" titles? Personally, I prefer a regional, points-based system. Sorry, couldn't resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I think a true BIG HAT is anyone that can be identified by a one name designation...ie and definately not limited to!!! Alasdair Kent Tommy Scott Bev Ralph Amanda Angie... Above list is just a FEW...please dont kill me if I missed someone...!!! Anyone in the above mentioned list will easily be identified by anyone seriously into trialing....so just my definition of true big hat status! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Yeehaw! I'm a big hat. Everybody out west calls me by one name. A**hole, unfortunately. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Ok, here's my rough definition: A handler that has brought several dogs into open (partially or fully trained the dogs themselves) and has consistently placed well with these dogs in the larger open trials. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Well dangit, See Charlie I knew I would forget someone on that there list...My appologies to you sir, and my little hat off as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Hmmmmmm "Red"? :eek: naaaaaaa Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I like Sam's definition, which is just slightly less obscure than what I was going to post, which was either, if you're serious about this sport, you know who they are, or, if you have to ask . . . I'm also a bit worried about Charlie, who is starting to sound like a lawyer, and you know what THAT will do to to your general level of popularity. And, finally, I actually HATE the phrase 'big hat' or 'Big Hat' or 'BIG HAT'. I believe it was Don McCaig who popularized the term, although I suspect it was more a case of inventing or at least rescuing it from well-deserved obscurity. Nobody I know actually uses the term, certainly not the actual 'big hats' I know. Reeks of sycophancy, don't you know? A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Mark :0 ewe funny boy ewe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Hey Sam, thanks for the invite, perhaps another time. We were a bit worried about what the weather would do. Mark P.S. we enjoyed watching Tommy run his puppies last weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 No probs you are welcome anytime...glad you stayed where you were and supported Verna..whish I could have made it. He he he on the tommy puppy thing..was too busy sitting home putting whistles on Libby and Jo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 /me says to Andrea, "big hat, big hat, big hat, big hat." What the hell does "reeks of sycophancy" mean anyway? Is that some sort of lawyer term for brown-nosing or name-dropping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 reeks: To be pervaded by something unpleasant: ?This document... reeks of self-pity and self-deception? (Christopher Hitchens). sycophancy: ?fawning obsequiousness sycophant: A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people. synonyms: ? crawler, lackey, toady ? usage: A sycophant will everything admire/Each verse, each sentence, sets his soul on fire. --Dryden. See Also: ? adulator, apple polisher, ass-kisser, bootlicker, fawner, flatterer, goody-goody, groveler, truckler ?I had to merge a couple of sources so as to capture every delicious nuance. God I love language. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Yeah Baby! Excellent over-the-top definition provision. And if you love language so much, how did you make it past the first page of Culture Clash? I bogged down on the horrific analogy on the first page (Walt Disney definition of dog vs. Skinnerian definition of dog) and haven't picked up the damn book since. Marg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted January 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Holy Cow! Here I thought no one would respond and I come back to this? It must be cold everywhere Sam, I kind of had the only first name needed definition in mind too. Nice answer Charlie. Margaret - You come from a family of shepherds, don't you Denise? No, not exactly. My grandparents' families were from the UK. They had border collies for stock work (cattle and goats too I think - no sheep) and my grandmother was a breeder. By the time I was old enough to remember anything, my grandparents still had the farm but had gotten rid of the stock. My grandmother still occasionally bred border collies out of good working stock though. She was careful to purchase imported working dogs or their get from people at that time like Arthur Allen. Most of the market back then was for farm dogs. They only lived a couple of miles away and I spent a lot of time there. I remember many happy times of being surrounded by border collie puppies. As a child, I had a house pet who was a granddaughter of Gilchrist Spot. So, in answer to your question, I grew up with border collies and have had them all my life. However, I've only had sheep for ten years this month. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Who said I read the damned thing? Is that the Jean Donaldson tome? "Never in life, my dear!"* A. * somewhere in any one of 15 volumes of Patrick O'Brian's magnum opus. Another chap who adores language, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 The Big Hats are guys who walk the walk and talk the talk and show up for all the big events But you have to have the right catch in your get-a-long and the right worn out boots and the right name for your dog and you have to be cool or you can't be a Big Hat And you have to have a beat up plastic folding chair to set in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Mary: What about the truck? Tell us about the truck! charlie torre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Actually, for me, the biggest hats of all are the ones who, after having kicked the ^&$^($ out of the open course earlier in the day, and after being surrounded by all their admiring big hat friends, they still come over to the nobody in the lower classes and say, "Nice job" or "Here's something to try when your dog won't take that inside flank at the gate...". charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Interesting topic. The first usage I ever saw in print was around 1990, by Donald McCaig: "The Big Hats--that's what the top handlers are called." I'm surprised someone who enjoys language wouldn't like it. It plays off the Western (Stetson, belt buckle, rodeo) origins and flavor of sheepdog trialing, and connotes greatness at the same time. Can't see where it's sycophantic, unless it were used in wide-eyed wonder and flattery: "Oooh, you're a Big Hat!" But I can't imagine it's ever used seriously in direct address; I've certainly never heard it used that way. Nor would Big Hats use it of themselves: "We Big Hats always . . . ." Contrary to the view of it as sycophantic, the only Big Hat I ever heard opine on the subject said he thought it was disrespectful. But I don't agree with either of those views. It's just useful shorthand, IMO. I take it to mean the greats, the top tier of sheepdogging. Charlie's BIG HATS. Known names, like Sam said -- known to the extent that if you just use their first names, people know who you mean. (Although there are inevitably some problems of the Lewis Pence/Lewis Pulfer variety, that folks like Alasdair don't run into in this country. ) People to reckon with. People who know what they're talking about, and are worth listening to. I don't know if there IS a more precise definition. As Denise says, if you've been around a while, you know who they are. It also lends itself to being used humorously, generally as good-natured recognition that someone is moving up the ladder. "Gonna get measured for your big hat now?" Much as I was tempted to use it in a response to Denise, when she said on the other thread that she'd started out in obedience. "Why, Denise, then YOU would be an example of . . ." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Come now, Eileen, how could a connaisseur of the English language admire something as pedestrian as (grimace) 'big hat'. And, if I am not mistaken, Don McCaig first used it in his book 'Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men' in a manner that could quite readily be characterised as sycophantic. Not a Stetson in sight, either, inasmuch as he was referring to British handlers who could not conceivably have worn anything larger than a flat cap to the post. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted January 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 It also lends itself to being used humorously, generally as good-natured recognition that someone is moving up the ladder. "Gonna get measured for your big hat now?" Much as I was tempted to use it in a response to Denise, when she said on the other thread that she'd started out in obedience. "Why, Denise, then YOU would be an example of . . ." To which the people usually shake their heads no with a sheepish grin, knowing how far it is from the truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Andrea, My respect for you has just grown by such leaps and bounds. This thread has brought to light a whole other side of you that I wasnt aware of...My impression of you ranged more to the four letter variety and imagine my delight that we will now be able to communicate in such new and enlightening ways... (OMG I HOPE I HAVE SPELLED EVERYTHING CORRECTLY...SIGH) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Charlie: Not all the big hats have trucks. I remember when Berhow got a good deal on a van - and the whole entire inside was done in red velvet. I tell you, it was an embarrassment. Looked like a whorehouse on wheels. Had a decal on the back - Don't come knockin if the van is rockin. I think the next year he had a truck. Vans are big among the Big Hats Trucks are, too. Trailers carry all the dogs And the children clean the poo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillTerry Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Hey, just found this thread. I like Sam's definition of the first name. I also will add that a Big Hat is someone who when they do not make the top 20 at the National Finals that is the gossip of the day versus if they do make the top 20. You are not a Big Hat even if you make the the top 20 once or twice (could be luck), The Big Hats have all been in the top 20 at least 5 times. Denise, I think that different handlers' have different ideas of what a Big Hat is dependant upon how serious that they are and how many big trials that they attend. To some people a Big Hat is someone who may be big in their region because these people have never seen or read about the best. It is like the animal that is champion at a county fair and the owner mistakenly takes it to the Nationals. The owners are just big fish in a small pond. To the people in a small pond, they are big fish. I remember someone talking to a Big Hat that had just gotten back from the U.K. and the English Nationals. She went on and on about how much better the dogs and handlers were in in England. The Big Hat asked her if she had been to the National Finals, Meeker or the Bluegrass. She had not. As he so eloquently stated, "since you haven't seen the best run over here, how can you have that opinion." Good god A., you are over the top with your words. I will never be a sycophant where you are concerned. You still are better than "Webster's Word of the Day" from the internet. Sam, when you say Terry does everyone know who you mean? Since I am alway off topic or is it that I am always "off center". I believe there is a second tier of handlers that although not "Big Hats" are "Good Hats". They sometimes win trials and generally place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.