Bad breeding may cause problems

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Hi everyone. It's been awhile since I last posted but I am back again with a couple of problems. I took Tucker to the vet today as he has been losing hair around his eyes and has bad flaky skin. I had noticed these thing coming on for maybe 6 months. About 2 weeks ago I decided to change Tuckers diet from Taste of the Wild High Prairie to Orjins Tundra hoping to see if maybe it was his food that was causing the hair lost and flaky skin. I also started giving him 2000mg of salmon oil once a day. He has also been inserting his feet into his mouth and licking them. His feet will be almost ringing wet when he is done. He has had a recurring ear infection now for the last year. Maybe 3 times.

The last time I was at the vet Tucker tried to bite the vet and we had to muzzle him. This time I took him in muzzled as I new what had happen last time. It's just been the last 2 times that Tucker has had a problem with the vets. This time was even worse! The vet could not get near him to check him out. So we could only talk and look at Tucker from a short distance. I told the vet I had switched his food and started him of salmon oil. Apparently he was not a fan of a grain free diet and asked me to take him off it. He suggested a diet that included grains and meats like fish, venison and duck and to continue with the salmon oil. He also gave me a couple of prescriptions. One is Cefpodomime 200mg once a day and the other is Apoquel 5.4mg that i give 2 tablet 2 times a day. He made an appointment for 2 weeks and give me  another prescription Acepromazine 25mg to give to Tucker on the day of his appointment I guess to calm him down a little before I brought him in. 

I have had on going problems with Tucker since I brought him home. I guess what I am interested in hearing about is how much of these problems is/was/has been caused from the kennel I purchased him from or at least his breeding. Some of you may remember that I got him from Jawanna Boarder Collies in Hemlock, Michigan. They seem to breed only for color and have little regard for much else. At least thats my opinion of them.

Hopefully my vet can figure out some of these issue. I really hate to think I have to drug my dog to take him to the vet though.

 

[gcv-border]

I am sorry to hear of Tucker's problems, but give you props for giving him quality medical care.

Sometimes it can be necessary to use a drug to calm the pet enough to be examined by the vet. I do not know how Ace is viewed as an anti-anxiety med, and others will know more.

Regarding getting a dog from such a kennel as you describe: although frowned upon here on these Boards, breeding for color doesn't necessarily produce a dog with health problems if appropriate genetic tests are done on the parents to insure that (known) genetic-based diseases are not passed on. (Note: I !00% agree with not breeding for color as the main reason for a mating.) However, it is commonly known that inbreeding is highly correlated with a multitude of problems, with skin issues being one of them. Do you know the breeding practices of the kennel you purchased from? Do you have contact with any other owner of a pup from the same litter as Tucker? You could reach out to them  and ask about their pup.

I have heard good feedback about using Apoquel for skin problems.

Note: I checked out the website for Jawanna, and there are a lot of red flags.

[Journey]

Yeah, that kennel is bad news on every aspect, not just the color aspect, the horrendous environment, mass production, no one sees or picks up from house, etc... The skin issues most likely are due to his breeding.

As to grain free, that's been a problem food for a few years now, glad your vet wants him off it! Short of running allergy test, you will need to try everything possible until you hit upon something that works. Don't think 2 weeks weeks will be enough, 30 days min would be my guess.

Did they happen to check for Demodex? Just curious based on where you say the hair loss is.

Good luck with helping him get better!

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

13 hours ago, gcv-border said:

I am sorry to hear of Tucker's problems, but give you props for giving him quality medical care.

Sometimes it can be necessary to use a drug to calm the pet enough to be examined by the vet. I do not know how Ace is viewed as an anti-anxiety med, and others will know more.

Regarding getting a dog from such a kennel as you describe: although frowned upon here on these Boards, breeding for color doesn't necessarily produce a dog with health problems if appropriate genetic tests are done on the parents to insure that (known) genetic-based diseases are not passed on. (Note: I !00% agree with not breeding for color as the main reason for a mating.) However, it is commonly known that inbreeding is highly correlated with a multitude of problems, with skin issues being one of them. Do you know the breeding practices of the kennel you purchased from? Do you have contact with any other owner of a pup from the same litter as Tucker? You could reach out to them  and ask about their pup.

I have heard good feedback about using Apoquel for skin problems.

Note: I checked out the website for Jawanna, and there are a lot of red flags.

Sorry I do not really know the breeding practices of the kennel though I suspect there not good ones. I know of no one else that may have a dog from that litter. 

As far as Tuckers skin problems I had thought maybe brushing Tucker 2 or 3 times a week would help. It has not. Overtime I brush him there is more dead skin then there is hair. The brush is loaded with it. The vet did say Tucker has a very nice shinny coat. I am hoping Apoquel is the answer but it's pretty expensive. Hopefully the next vet visit the vet will be able to examine Tucker a little more closely.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

3 hours ago, Journey said:

Yeah, that kennel is bad news on every aspect, not just the color aspect, the horrendous environment, mass production, no one sees or picks up from house, etc... The skin issues most likely are due to his breeding.

As to grain free, that's been a problem food for a few years now, glad your vet wants him off it! Short of running allergy test, you will need to try everything possible until you hit upon something that works. Don't think 2 weeks weeks will be enough, 30 days min would be my guess.

Did they happen to check for Demodex? Just curious based on where you say the hair loss is.

Good luck with helping him get better!

I have had 2 really great BC that were adopted when I live in Montana. They gave me close to 15 years of happiness and nearly know problems at all. Tucker was the first puppy I purchase from a kennel when I got back to Michigan. Though I dearly love him, it certainly was not a very good choice at the time.

Any Suggestion on a better food for Tucker? Seems like everything is grain free now. Apparently price is not an indication of the best dog foods as Orjins Tundra was not cheep! 

He did not mention Demodex that I can recall, but he may have.  He did bring out a book and show me a picture of a dog with a similar problem, it may have been a picture of a dog that had Demodex. The vet was unable to touch Tucker to really exam him good. Hopefully the drug will calm him down next appointment so the he can. I really don't understand that as Tucker has been going to this vet for 3 years. It's only been the last 2 times thats it's been a problem. Thank you Journey!

[Journey]

8 minutes ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

Any Suggestion on a better food for Tucker? Seems like everything is grain free now. Apparently price is not an indication of the best dog foods as Orjins Tundra was not cheep! 

He did not mention Demodex that I can recall, but he may have.  He did bring out a book and show me a picture of a dog with a similar problem, it may have been a picture of a dog that had Demodex. The vet was unable to touch Tucker to really exam him good. Hopefully the drug will calm him down next appointment so the he can. I really don't understand that as Tucker has been going to this vet for 3 years. It's only been the last 2 times thats it's been a problem. Thank you Journey!

Ah, as much as most want to get top of the line (whatever that is in their opinion)..I would recommend Purina. Pro Plan, Purina One, just a Purina brand though. They do the research, the testing and much more on their foods. Or, go raw. Most don't like raw, once you get used to it you won't go back to dry nasty crap 

He's a bit old for Demodex, I was thinking he was under a year. Could be but not likely. Another additive you could try is the Dinovite, I use it periodically when I think coats or condition is lacking. What color is Tucker?  As to the behavioral issues at the vet...can you just go up there and work on desensitizing him? Make it a party to go there, daily if need be, and see if you can figure out what upset him and recondition it..

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

5 minutes ago, Journey said:

Ah, as much as most want to get top of the line (whatever that is in their opinion)..I would recommend Purina. Pro Plan, Purina One, just a Purina brand though. They do the research, the testing and much more on their foods. Or, go raw. Most don't like raw, once you get used to it you won't go back to dry nasty crap 

He's a bit old for Demodex, I was thinking he was under a year. Could be but not likely. Another additive you could try is the Dinovite, I use it periodically when I think coats or condition is lacking. What color is Tucker?  As to the behavioral issues at the vet...can you just go up there and work on desensitizing him? Make it a party to go there, daily if need be, and see if you can figure out what upset him and recondition it..

I will look into the Purina foods. Thanks

I have thought about Dinovite. I will get some a try it out. Tucker is a Blk/Wht long hair BC.

I had though about taking Tucker to the vets office just to get him desensitized to all the commotion going on in there. He is at the top of his anxiety level when we walk in. It hadn't been an option until this last time. They're letting people and dogs back into the waiting area agin now. Because of covid they would make everyone wait in the cars.

[Journey]

Ah, the reason I asked about color was I was wondering about CDA. Cute picture!

[beachdogz]

Tucker is beautiful!  Wouldn't have guessed a skin/coat problem from the picture.  How is Tucker's temperament with other people outside of the vet's office?  Is Tucker a Covid pup that suffers from lack of socialization?  Or is he great with everyone, and just nervous at the vet's office?  Has he been to an obedience class and been trained - or is currently being trained? 

I agree that you will have to do some exploring as to which food might be best for him, and it is very frustrating to keep trying dog foods, I know.  But hang in there.  I also have heard good results from Apoquel. 

Depending on any prior or current training, if he is not enrolled anywhere, I would look into obedience or agility training for him, or even nosework.  Working with him will give him confidence and may help you with handling him at the vet.  He also may need a lot of socialization. I also agree with desensitizing him at the vet's office.  You said that he was going to the vet for the past 3 years.  Was he always good for the vet, except the last 2 times?  Was there anything different about those visits? 

I adopted a dog that would not let the vet touch her for the first year or two.  She was not a biter, but we didn't push it.  Obedience and agility classes gave us both the confidence to tackle those problems.  My vet was amazed when she could actually examine her, and I credit that to her non-stop classes. 

Best of luck!  Don't lose hope!

[diane allen]

I would say to continue going to the vet office when you don't have an appointment.  You might have to start outside, have him watch other dogs going in and out, all the while getting the Very Best Treats Ever!  Maybe even half a block away - whatever his trigger demands.  (I know, it may not be the best if he does indeed have a food allergy, but if you gotta get him into the vet.....)  After a number of trips like this, maybe just open the door and treat.  Etc. etc. 

I have one who doesn't like the vet office (my first!), and she occasionally has to be muzzled.  She's much better than she used to be, but still.

Good luck.

diane

[D'Elle]

Other grain-inclusive foods that I have fed my dogs with good results are Simply Nourish (which is a Petsmart brand) and Wellness. Make sure it is not Simply Nourish Source, which is grain free. I always read ingredients.

some of the companies that make mostly grain-free also make one kind that includes grain, but you have to look for it these days.

I will be really glad when this "grain free" fad is over.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

On 7/23/2021 at 6:33 PM, beachdogz said:

Tucker is beautiful!  Wouldn't have guessed a skin/coat problem from the picture.  How is Tucker's temperament with other people outside of the vet's office?  Is Tucker a Covid pup that suffers from lack of socialization?  Or is he great with everyone, and just nervous at the vet's office?  Has he been to an obedience class and been trained - or is currently being trained? 

I agree that you will have to do some exploring as to which food might be best for him, and it is very frustrating to keep trying dog foods, I know.  But hang in there.  I also have heard good results from Apoquel. 

Depending on any prior or current training, if he is not enrolled anywhere, I would look into obedience or agility training for him, or even nosework.  Working with him will give him confidence and may help you with handling him at the vet.  He also may need a lot of socialization. I also agree with desensitizing him at the vet's office.  You said that he was going to the vet for the past 3 years.  Was he always good for the vet, except the last 2 times?  Was there anything different about those visits? 

I adopted a dog that would not let the vet touch her for the first year or two.  She was not a biter, but we didn't push it.  Obedience and agility classes gave us both the confidence to tackle those problems.  My vet was amazed when she could actually examine her, and I credit that to her non-stop classes. 

Best of luck!  Don't lose hope!

I will be posting another thread about Tuckers temperament. In short it hasn't been very good. All my fault for sure. I have ordered some differed of food that has grain in it..Purina. Seems as if I use to feed him that but thought he might deserve better. Now I think the better food was what I originally started with.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

23 hours ago, diane allen said:

I would say to continue going to the vet office when you don't have an appointment.  You might have to start outside, have him watch other dogs going in and out, all the while getting the Very Best Treats Ever!  Maybe even half a block away - whatever his trigger demands.  (I know, it may not be the best if he does indeed have a food allergy, but if you gotta get him into the vet.....)  After a number of trips like this, maybe just open the door and treat.  Etc. etc. 

I have one who doesn't like the vet office (my first!), and she occasionally has to be muzzled.  She's much better than she used to be, but still.

Good luck.

diane

Thanks Diane........That is exactly what I am going to do. The vets office is for sure a high anxiety environment for him. 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

12 hours ago, D'Elle said:

Other grain-inclusive foods that I have fed my dogs with good results are Simply Nourish (which is a Petsmart brand) and Wellness. Make sure it is not Simply Nourish Source, which is grain free. I always read ingredients.

some of the companies that make mostly grain-free also make one kind that includes grain, but you have to look for it these days.

I will be really glad when this "grain free" fad is over.

Elle you're right, I did have to hunt for the grained verity. Why did the food companies even go down that route of grain free foods. My vet at least don't approve.

[Journey]

Most vets, worth their salt, don't approve of the grain free..glad you've found an alternative. Give it a good 90 days and see where he is then. I find if it's not going to work you'll see that quicker that if it is. I tried the grain free, could not keep weight on any of my dogs. 3 months and we went to a raw/dnc blend and have stayed there for most of the past 15 years.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Thanks Journey…….I went with The Purina One Sensitive Skin food. I don’t have a problem keeping weight on him, at least not yet. He eats most any thing the smells like food. I didn’t know until recently that grain free was bad. Maybe that’s why my dogs would eat so much grass. His coat is getting really shiny now. Maybe because he has been on salmon oil for about 3 weeks. I brushed him tonight and it seems like there is a lot less dead skin coming off him. 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Tucker’s hair loss around his eyes is get better. I just finished up the last of his meds. I can see the hair returning. He still has a little bit of dry skin flakes but nothing like he did have. He has stopped chewing on his feet too. I am really happy with the results, and I am sure he is. He has been on Purina One Sensitive skin food now for a couple of weeks. I always squirt in 2ea 1000mg soft capped Salmon oil into his food once a day. He really likes that food. His next vet appointment is next week. Hopefully the meds I give him before his appointment will allow the vet to exam him.

[Journey]

Positive improvements are nice to see! Glad you found a food that is agreeing with him.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

It’s been a couple days since I have gotten Tucker back from the vet. I would like to say everything went smoothly but Tucker still was extremely unsettled. I had given him the Tranquilizer more than an hour before his visit, as the doc had instructed. Trucker still tried to bite anyone he could thru the examination and never quit growling even though he had his muzzle on.  I felt so bad for him.  At least the vet was able to exam him and give him a couple of his shots. After I got him home I noticed that his eyes were really drooping and he walked like a drunk dog. He stayed that way all day but did sleep most of it. I really hate doing that to him! The next day he seemed fine. The vet said his coat looked really good and that the Apoquel appears to be working well. He said that we will continue the Apoquel. His hair is growing back around his eyes now. He is not scratching no more or chewing on his feet. I am really happy Tucker is feeling so much better!

[D'Elle]

Glad to hear he is better!

Of course sedation like that is a last resort, but it sounds as if last resorts are required in Tucker's case. Really glad you could get him treatment.