juliepoudrier Posted February 6, 2016 Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 Well, Liz, not everything is perfect and if you can point to just one litter, then I don't think Handler's Post is suddenly not reputable. I think we tell people to do their research. Handler's Post is a good place to start and probably better than many other places a person could look. Then again, do you have any BETTER ideas? I'm sure folks would like to hear them, J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Vishoot Posted February 6, 2016 Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 Most people I know who breed border collies will happily place a puppy in the RIGHT non working home. There are some "working homes" that would never get a puppy from these folks. It all hinges on the best situation for the puppy. If there's a list, it's likely full of "working" people because they know in advance of the planned breeding, they'll get priority, but the purpose is not necessarily to refuse non-working homes. Never heard of any of them requiring a pediatric spay / neuter. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I've never heard of it. Most know that's not good for dogs. I would not be a fan of a "reputable breeders list." I guess that would mean that whoever is not on it is disreputable. If somebody is aware enough to be looking for such a list, I trust that they're aware enough to do their own homework and research. Since we have the Internet, and here we all are on it, everybody can network and share information, as well as communicate directly with anyone breeding and their clients. As Donald says, a great many of our dogs don't come from people who identify themselves as "breeders," but from individuals who have a really good dog that they think would cross well with this other really good dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 6, 2016 Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 Just pointing out an example that the ads on there are NOT given more than a cursory screening that the dogs are claimed to be working bred. I've not investigated every ad to see how common it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 6, 2016 Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 Did you point this out to Robin, Liz? I'm sure she'd be happy for some help...are we positive the bitch wasn't working bred and just did ACK sports? They tend to blur the lines..*working bred* vs *working dog*. For some reason I've seen an uptick in people *wanting* ABCA papers lately, Trophy papers is what I refer to them as since the dog doesn't work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Multiple generations of agility breeding with AKC only papers sure is sport breeding to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Agree. Sad but hopefully you pointed this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I have never assumed 'working Bred' and 'working lines' means the parents actually do some sort of stock work. Heck it could be a great great great_ somewhere in the pedigree that worked and you could not say the statement was not the truth. Those of us that have stock dogs know of a cross of 2 actually nice working dogs that has produced pups that do not work well. Since that is the case I would expect it more so from parents who do not work stock. When ads are placed anywhere I think it is the buyer who needs to inquire as to what the words mean that are written about the dog/pup. Working to some I would say would not qualify as working to me. For example a dog that follows behind stock - is that working if that is all he does? There are no concrete definitions and lots of opinions and grey areas. Tons of different dogs and different people so what suits one would not necessarily suit another, which I think can be a good thing. I tell everyone looking for a stock dog to watch both parents work and make sure you like what you see. If there is a previous litter bred the same watch those pups, that is as good of a predictor of what the pups will be that we get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I have never assumed 'working Bred' and 'working lines' means the parents actually do some sort of stock work. Heck it could be a great great great_ somewhere in the pedigree that worked and you could not say the statement was not the truth. Those of us that have stock dogs know of a cross of 2 actually nice working dogs that has produced pups that do not work well. Since that is the case I would expect it more so from parents who do not work stock. When ads are placed anywhere I think it is the buyer who needs to inquire as to what the words mean that are written about the dog/pup. Working to some I would say would not qualify as working to me. For example a dog that follows behind stock - is that working if that is all he does? There are no concert definitions and lots of opinions and grey areas. Tons of different dogs and different people so what suits one would not necessarily suit another, which I think can be a good thing. I tell everyone looking for a stock dog to watch both parents work and make sure you like what you see. If there is a previous litter bred the same watch those pups, that is as good of a predictor of what the pups will be that we get Interesting point. I always thought of "working lines" as being what you describe, in that somewhere in the dog's ancestry there were working dogs, whereas "working bred" means that both parents were working dogs. I wonder how many people actually view the words differently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I'm afraid people who don't really understand the importance of breeding for working ability in this breed, and how quickly that ability can be lost, understand the difference, which is why unscrupulous breeders are using the term "working lines." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 GentleLake, that is part of the problem. Many of the local colour breeders point to the working dogs in their pedigrees as proof that their dogs are true working dogs-although they might not have worked stock in 4-5 generations! For the first time buyer wanting a working dog this is a problem. The first time buyer rarely knows where to go, nor what to look for in a dog. Many think all Border Collies are the same-many shy from the health tested proven dog because the price is too high-I have neighbors going through several dogs-some due to health problems, others due to poor management. While health testing may drive up the price, it generally makes the buyer realize his investment and he may be more careful with the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwb3 Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Good to know Julie, thanks. (Although still several years out from need. . .got my hands plenty full with my two pups!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Dear Doggers, When I heard Dog Fanciers talk about lines: "A Labrador Retriever from 'hunting lines''", I couldn't figure it out at first. Since hunting Labrador Retrievers are bred for different characteristics than show Labrador Retrievers (and are different as chalk and cheese), isn't it easier to think of them as different breeds rather than slight variations ('lines') within a common breed? Well, er, no. That deliberate confusion allows the show people to claim their dogs could do the work the 'hunting ('working') lines are bred for if only, if only, if only . . . . and since their dog fulfills the morphological constraints of the "breed standard" and is awarded the only "CH" before its name, we know which is the better dog don't we? It's intellectual obfuscation. Dogs bred for different purposes become different breeds. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it can fly like a duck (or so conformation breeders would have the world believe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I truly do not understand how an intelligent person could think that? Have none of them just gone out and hunted their dog to find out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hello everyone, I truly do not understand how an intelligent person could think that? Have none of them just gone out and hunted their dog to find out? I think that those who have dogs which haven't been bred to retain their breed's working talent and ability feel that their conformation bred dogs are still capable of doing the job. They seem to believe that the "work" (stock work, field work, etc.) doesn't require any innate ability, it is simply a trained set of behaviors. Regards, nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 yup, I call it "birth right". Some seem to believe that the ability is a birth right and automatically comes in the package with that neat set of registration papers nicely wrapped around it. It's not just the AKC folks or the people who never need or use a dog, it's also many who use dogs that fall for it. Believing with out question that the breeds have been bred to a homozygous state when it comes to what ever working ability that the breed was developed for and no further selection pressure needs to be applied. Just breed to another of the same breed and a great example of the breed will be produced, or so some believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I think that those who have dogs which haven't been bred to retain their breed's working talent and ability feel that their conformation bred dogs are still capable of doing the job. And sadly, they don't actually care enough about what should be their breed's natural, instinctual ability, to actually find out that the dog doesn't have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 The proud owner of an English Pointer bragged about the proof that his show dog had total hunting ability because it went "on point" when a House Sparrow fluttered down in front of him in the show ring. Sure, pointing at a sparrow in a bare dirt ring is proof of hunting ability. I guess that means a Border Collie that stares or bites at the cat is just demonstrating working ability, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 hum, people need to get out more:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 "It's not just the AKC folks or the people who never need or use a dog, it's also many who use dogs that fall for it." Yes. This. I meet very few Border Collies in SAR who come from actual working parents. It's "working lines" from breeders with good websites. The other BC on my SAR team is the exception to that. His mom was an open level sheepdog turned SAR dog. Oddly enough, many SAR labs come from lines that are still pretty actively hunting/involved in hunt trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 A prominent breeder and shower of another breed seriously told me to my face that the instinct to work (or hunt or whatever purpose) was "hard-wired in" and did not need to be selected for when breeding, yet the all-important show ring appearance (standard) did need to be rigorously selected for in each breeding. In other words, you could not lose the instinct and the appearance had to be guarded at all cost. A new definition of ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 ^^ Shaking my head. . . . Talk about getting things ass backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Dear Doggers, Sue writes (tongue in check): "I guess that means a Border Collie that stares or bites at the cat is just demonstrating working ability, too." The AKC writes ( head up ass) : "The vast majority of Herding dogs, as household pets, never cross paths with a farm animal. Nevertheless, pure instinct prompts many of these dogs to gently herd their owners, especially the children of the family." Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Dear Doggers, The AKC writes ( head up ass) : "The vast majority of Herding dogs, as household pets, never cross paths with a farm animal. Nevertheless, pure instinct prompts many of these dogs to gently herd their owners, especially the children of the family." Donald McCaig "...gently herd their owners, especially the children of the family" If they were so gentle, why are so many young, untrained BCs coming into rescue because they herd/nip the children? The ACK donned their rose-colored glasses when they wrote this. Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMom Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Well, clearly Livi has previously unrecognized herding talent. She'll be here waiting for her award for superior herding of children. I regret to say that the rescue requires her to be spayed, so we'll be unable to reproduce this incredible gift of hers. It's a shame, because despite her uncertain ancestry I feel certain her demonstration of child-herding instincts indicates she has a lot to add to the breed. (Said firmly tongue-in-cheek, especially since we don't allow her to herd he children...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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