Help needed with BC/Black Lab mix Marajade - Fostering

[TDFOSTER]

I have suggested it. If I don't hear from them I may take her to my own vet and pay to have it done. She can be such a good dog and most of the time she loves being with the boxer and the boston terrier and playing. Sometimes I think these dogs get lost in the momentum of continuing to get new dogs and new puppies. Jade is under their radar because I take care of her completely and don't fuss at them. But I am fussing now because I think it is totally irresponsible for the trainer to not get back to me when she said she would.

 

The behaviorist, who is not associated with the rescue, would never let me sit for this many days without at least responding to me.

 

Unfortunately, no matter how this goes down with Jade I am done fostering for this rescue and possible all fostering is done for me. I know they do the best they can do and all are volunteers but I can't deal with not being responded to when I ask a question or for something. Sorry..off my soap box.

[D'Elle]

Does the rescue understand that thyroid problems can cause aggression?

 

It may sound harsh, but IMO it would be totally irresponsible of them to have her PTS without having a medical workup to see if there's a medical cause for this.

 

Honestly, I think it's irresponsible of them not to have done one in all this time anyway.

I agree with Gentle Lake on this - also not meaning to be critical of the rescue, but a full check for medical/physical issues really should be done before the ultimate and irreversible is done.

I am so very sorry you are experiencing this, and my heart goes out to you.

 

ETA: your post came in while I was typing this. Good for you to be willing to do this for Jade.

 

And please take a break from fostering if you need to, but I would like to encourage you not to give up on fostering entirely. It is such important work to do and I can tell from your posts that you are the kind of person that is badly needed. You are kind, and willing to work hard for the dogs, and put your heart into it. Maybe that rescue group is not good, or maybe it's just a few of the people in it.....but perhaps you would have a better experience with a different one. I an fully understand how you feel, but try not to make any decisions about never fostering again at least for a little while.

Sending you good energy and thoughts......

[TDFOSTER]

Thank you D'Elle.

 

I know that I am pretty emotional right now and my emotions are talking. Hopefully when all this is over, however which way it goes, I can reassess what I can do. It is just so difficult to have worked with Jade for 11 months and not really have them pay attention to what I have been saying. And now be at a point where they even suggest she might need to be PTS.

 

Are there other symptons of thyroid issues that I might be missing? She is on her 3rd UTI since she came into the rescue. She is a veracious chewer. She has now totally destroyed four TV remotes...even as hard as my mom tries, Jade seems to find them She will sit for very long periods of time and chew on the Nylar bones.

[d112358]

By all means, get the vet workup, but I wouldn't put all your hopes in that basket - it's kind of a hail mary at this point.

 

Jade came from unknown parentage and had a very rough start. She was poorly socialized (unsocialized) from birth to 5 months and had a rough transition into your household even with all the hard work y'all put into it. She's shown fear and fear aggression from day 1; these issues are hard to deal with if you have plenty of money (to get medical and behavioral resources) and time (to go to all the appointments and implement the training protocols and manage every moment of the dog's life to keep them moving forward).

 

Whatever happens, you've been there for Jade and advocated for her. The rescue may be jerks; they may also be busy folks who have to make tough decisions based on limited resources of time and money.

[TDFOSTER]

d112358 - I agree that the blood work up is a hail mary but if she has to be put down, in my heart I want to know that I have done everything that I can do.

 

I know that the rescue people are busy folks and I am not trying to make them seem like jerks and I apologize if that is how I came across. BUT it is easier to bring cute little puppies in, post them all over the place and move them out quickly than deal with these issues.....BECAUSE they are volunteers and have full time jobs and families...I get that. On the other hand, when you have a volunteer that takes total responsibility for the foster, it is a known difficult foster, please don't blow them off. And that is sort of what I am feeling like right now. In order to get a response from the owner of the rescue, I had to post a private message on facebook, send 1 e-mail, 2 text and then a text to tell her I had cancelled the two meet and greets for yesterday. 30 seconds after that text I get a phone call. That was Saturday night at 9:00 p.m. I still haven't received a call back from her and I have asked about doing a blood panel to just rule out there could be anything physical adding to Jade's issues.

 

This happened at 1:00 p.m. Friday afternoon. I talked with the trainer at 3:00 on Saturday afternoon and she was going to call me back and it is now 2:00 on Monday and I still don't have a call back. I am just totally frustrated that they dropped the "PTS" on the table and just aren't communicating with me.

 

The behaviorist I have been working with is not with this rescue...she is with the ARL here.

 

And again I am way way emotional about this. Just using the forum as a sounding board. I do appreciate everyone listening to me vent. Much better here than me saying something that burn bridges that I might not want burned once the emotions are in check again.

[TDFOSTER]

Ok -Good news...The rescue just sent me an e-mail and agreed that no decision would be made until a full vet check and blood panel was done. Now I can take a deep breath again. I know that might not change the final decision but then I will know that we have done everything we possibly can. They also have a meeting with the trainers tomorrow evening and they will try to pin them down and see what thoughts they may have.

 

I have read a little on "brittle" dogs. Not enough probably to even ask intelligent questions but does anyone on here have any experience with a brittle dog or know someone that has and how they dealt with that dog?

 

Thank you again everyone for putting up with my emotions.

 

Teri

[GentleLake]

I'm sop happy to hear this.

 

Will you be the one taking her to the vet? If so, please be sure to ask whether they feel anti-anxiety meds might be a possibility for Jade, too. They've worked wonders for many dogs.

[TDFOSTER]

GentleLake. I will be taking her. But sometimes they won't let the foster go back with them but I intend to put up a pretty good fight about not being able to do that. And I will talk to them about the anti anxiety drugs to see if that can help her.

 

Thanks for hanging with me!

 

Teri

[GentleLake]

Very best wishes that this all works out in the best way for Jade, whatever that happens to be.

 

Thank you for sticking with her.

[TDFOSTER]

December 24, 2014 - 7:30 a.m. - Wish us luck and that we have no more dog fights or bites before then. Will most likely post after the appointment and nothing until then unless something else transpires.

 

Everyone have a very Merry Christmas!

 

Teri and Jade

[Eileen Stein]

Teri, no one who has read this thread could fail to be impressed with how much you have done for Jade. You've made a huge difference in her life and have been willing to hang in there with her and do everything you could possibly do to help her become a normal dog. It's a slim possibility that there could be a medical answer for her, but of course I hope there will be.

 

But I have known dogs who have nervous system issues that are just not correctable. I read recently about a disorder in humans (misophonia, it might have been?) where certain sounds, like the sound of someone chewing, can cause them inexplicable pain and fill them with uncontrollable rage. They can describe this to people who would otherwise have no way of even guessing at what their problem might be, but a dog cannot. Yet there's every possibility a dog could be subject to the same type of disorder. I think the same is true of other human disorders where ordinary, normal sensory stimuli are excruciating for those who suffer from the disorder.

 

If the time comes when you have ruled out other possible explanations of Jade's behavior, euthanasia would be a last kindness you can do for her. In no way would it be a failure on your part. But again, I hope it will not come to that. And your advocacy for her, in making sure that she has a full medical workup including thyroid before any decision is made, is just another example of how much you've done for this dog. Bless you!

 

ETA: I wrote this before I saw your last post. What an appealing, engaging dog she is! Best of luck to you with the exam and the time leading up to it. Merry Christmas to you and Jade.

[TDFOSTER]

Eileen, I think that's what makes this so hard for me.

[Eileen Stein]

I understand -- I'm sure it is. Sometimes I think it's dogs like this that speak the most deeply to us. There's so much that's good in them. We want so much to fix them, so it's hard to let go of the hope that they can be fixed.

[jvw]

Well said both posts Eileen

[Tess's Girl]

I've been keeping up this thread since the beginning. I hope the vet appointment goes well.

 

I just wanted to chime in and say that many people think that anti-anxiety meds can be cost prohibitive. This doesn't have to be true. Tess is on a daily anxiety med. I get it filled at my local Kroger pharmacy and it costs $20.00 a month, definitely something that's doable for most people. So, if the vet thinks that anti anxiety meds are an option for Jade, discuss with them about the possibilities and check your local pharmacy's for a good price.

 

I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas. Will be keep my hopes up for Jade and waiting to hear about the vet appointment.

[GentleLake]

Yes, definitely check your pharmacies, but also do some price checking. I checked several places for a prescription for one of my dogs and the range was from $19.91 to $111.00 for the exact same thing! Most were in the $20-$26 range, but still quite a difference.

 

Also check out Pet Rescue RX. http://petrescuerx.com/ Great prices, fantastic service and they donate all their profits to rescues and shelters that you designate.

[TDFOSTER]

Thank you for the suggestions on the meds. I want to do some research about them as well. The behaviorist recommended this morning that I start working with her and a muzzle...maybe a gentle leader. Not because she is bad but to help her from making mistakes. Do any of you have any experience with muzzles. And I am assuming I have to fit her for it? And I know that I have to let her put her nose through it...click and treat.

 

The trainer did call last night but I know it is because the owner of the rescue pushed her a bit. I have a very uneasy feeling about the trainer...just because she thinks all of Jade's snarking is to tell the other dogs to get out of her space but I don't think she is listening when I say she will cross the room on occassion to snark Jet the boxer and sometimes she just barks and acts like she is going to go across the room to keep him from coming in. She is suggesting that we do 2-3 hours of training at her place with new people and new dogs. I am really leary about this. I really want her to come to my house and see the dynamics of what goes on there. Is that a wrong request?

 

She also told me that Jade was probably not a candidate for anti anxiety meds because we weren't working with someone and then said oh yeah, after I said well we are using the rescue vet. She then said, just tell them you are working with me then...they know me...I keep forgetting that Jade is a foster. I am nervous guys!

 

Again thank you for listening to me and giving me advice. I feel so connected here and so grateful for everyone's input.

 

Teri

[GentleLake]

It doesn't help things when you don't have much confidence in the trainer. So sorry about that.

 

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the trainer's suggestion to work with new people and dogs at her place, but I also think you're right that it could be very helpful for her to observe the dynamics in your home as well. So it might help if you can convince her to do that. Of course, you always run the risk that nothing will happen when she's there. Dogs and kids are notorious for not doing bad things when you want them to. LOL I'd definitely try to convince her to make a visit to the house, though.

 

What is it that's making you uncomfortable with the thought of taking Jade to the trainer's for some work? If you have a good reason to be concerned, maybe it's not a good idea. But let's see if we can tease out the reasons so you can make the best choice about ding a combination of things. The behaviorist might be able to give you some helpful insights on this as well.

[TDFOSTER]

Gentle Lake,

 

Maybe the reason I am so uneasy is because I really don't feel like she is listening to what I am saying to her. And maybe in a face to face it would be better.

 

I don't disagree with the new people and new dogs and for much more than an hour at a time. It could be I am just so uptight about another dog fight happening that I am putting too much emphasis on the snark's too. And Maybe because she blew me off about the dog bite in general and didn't call me back even after having left her several messages.

 

It might be that she seemed uncomfortable that I had talked to the behaviorist about Jade but what she doesn't understand and hasn't asked about is that I paid for the Behaviorist out of my own pocket, Paula has seen Jade since the very beginning, I have a history with Paula, Paula has given me solid advice up to this point, and Paula continues to talk to me about Jade and what we are encountering, even though she is not being paid for any of this.

 

Could be I am building a wall with her and I need to step back, breathe and start over.

 

It seems that these 3 dogs behave pretty much the same after someone has been in the house for a bit...even Jade as long as the new person makes no move towards her...just ignores her. Jade has met Jenn so hopefully that would help in her becoming a little more normal. Mollie is the same intense piece of work with everyone. I also wonder if we need to set up a video camera and just let it roll so she can see everything that goes on in a day.

[GentleLake]

Not listening to you is a good reason to be wary of any trainer, imo.

 

Am I understanding that she's suggesting 2-3 hours at one time with strangers and new dogs? That's a long time and could be very stressful. You say she's OK at the adoption events for about an hour, maybe a little more, right? Pushing it a whole lot more than that could be going too far. I'd be asking her just what her plan is when Jade reaches the point where she's had enough and starts getting snarky. Again, asking the behaviorist what she thinks of this plan might not be a bad idea either. She sounds like a gem.

 

The video camera could be a really good idea. It would allow the trainer to see the behaviors without any outside influence, namely her presence, and also eliminate any having to wait around for things to happen. It could be a very useful tool.

 

I don't know if this would be a situation where you'd have too many cooks spoiling the broth, but are you familiar with the AGBEH (Aggressive Behaviors in Dogs) list on Yahoo Groups? It hasn't been a very active group lately, but there are some excellent trainers on the list who specialize in working with aggressive behaviors. It might be worth a shot asking for some opinions there. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/agbeh/info

[D'Elle]

TDFoster, I just want to say bless you for the work that you are doing with this dog. And I am thinking about you and sending you and Jade the very best mojo for a good outcome. I am so glad you came to this forum so that we have the opportunity to support you, and I only wish I could do more for you and Jade.

[TDFOSTER]

Yes, she is suggesting 2-3 hour stints. The first time she met Jade, was two weeks ago when we were supposed to be going to a "behavior class" with other dogs. When we got there, Jade was the only Dog and there were four trainers there. This was less than a week after Mollie had attacked her. She was freaked beyond freaked. And the trainers saw all that. They really just sat on the floor and gave her hot dog treats and she would come up to them afte a bit and take the treat.

 

Then I was told to bring her back the next week to the "obedience" class to see how she reacted around new people and dogs. But what ended up happening is a still in school trainer was assigned to us and we worked on the same skills the other dogs were working on. It was most evident when Jade hit the wall. Everytime a big fan came on, she was done. She would just lay down and take no more treats. They would let her rest a bit and then try again.

 

I was given assignments to work with Jade and they would touch base after the first of the year....Then we had the bite to my President.

 

I am wondering if I should gather all the e-mails that have gone back and forth between the owner of the rescue and the behaviorist and myself to give the trainer some background..but maybe that is asking too much to have her read all that because there is a lot.

 

I also like the idea of the video camera so maybe I will suggest that after the vet visit and we can do that before she starts whatever plan she has in mind.

 

I dont know about the yahoo group but I will definitely check it out. And that may be but if I can just glean education from them and begin to get a better understanding and know the questions to pose, that will be helpful to Jade and me.

 

I did mention to Paula and I don't think she is keen on the 2-3 hour sessions either. She referred to them as "boot camp"!

[TDFOSTER]

D'Elle, thank you so much. You will never know "how much" you all really do. If I didn't have this outlet I think I would explode. As Paula told me :the border collie" people have it together and are honest, forthright, and understand .

[Gloria Atwater]

Sometimes you just need to listen to your gut. If you really feel uneasy about this trainer and feel she's not listening to you or communicating as you like, then I think that's reason enough to be wary. I do think that a full 2-3 hour session of ANYthing is a lot for a dog. If you know she hits threshold sooner than that, I'm not sure saturating her in a situation is the best thing. You'll do what you must, of course, but I'm also a proponent of listening to one's better instincts. You know the dog better than anyone, by now.

Thinking of you and hoping for the best.

~ Gloria

[TDFOSTER]

Thank you Gloria. I will try to give the trainer the benefit of the doubt as she does not know me or Jade and she does not know how much research and work I have put into Jade. With that being said, I won't have a problem in saying we are not doing this. They don't get to take her without me being a part of it.

 

I want Jade to succeed if there is anyway for her to do that and I don't intend to push her to the point that there is no return for her.

 

She is a beautiful dog,

 

She truly is sad when she can't be with the other dogs in the house...I just checked and currently she is laying butt to butt with the boxer. Makes no sense to me sometimes. But I guess not everything is supposed to make sense.