waffles Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Is she closed in a crate in the house while other dogs mingle about loose? Is she still up for adoption or are you keeping her? I wonder if she would be less stressed if she were adopted into a home where she was the only dog. Not to say you are not doing a great job but sometimes, certain dogs just aren't meant to live with several other dogs in the same house. If you are keeping her permanently then I would suggest finding a better way to rotate dogs (if you crate her have her in her own room away from the dogs) or contain her with a gate in a kitchen or some place other than having her locked in a crate while the other dogs are out loose in the room. That sounds pretty stressful for a dog. I apologize if I read/interpreted this wrong and this is not what you are doing. Taking her for walks and getting her exercise and out into the world is a wonderful thing! Keep it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 It sounds like you are doing a good job. Keep it up. But it does sound like it is going to be a slow long road. She may feel threatened in the crate when the other dogs come near, perhaps a fear response since she does not have the option of flight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted February 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Waffles and jvw, Thank you for your responses. She will be up for adoption. Just not sure at what point. I have been thinking that one of the requirements would be an only dog home with a privacy fence, not a chain link fence since she can climb so well. She has come such a long way but I know we still have a long road to go. The other dogs are loose while she is in her crate...unfortunately she is really stressed if she isn't in the living room with my mom during the day. She does get let out of the crate and the other dogs crated for a few hours per day and this is the time she crawls in the dog bed with the Shitzpool. That makes sense about being fearful because of no flight option. I just wish it was warmer where we could take them all outside and try to introduce in the wide open spaces. I just get the sense tha she really would like to be close to the dogs...she is just scared. Not being a trainer I think part of the problem is mine in that I don't know exactly how to read her. She is so intense when she wants to play with the Shitzpoo and she isn't aggressive in the mornings or evenings if the other two happen to be in the kitchen area when she is in there. She goes up to the other two's food bowls as they are eating and has no issue...I know it's food she is after. We have been working with chicken..which she loves...to divert her attention from the other dogs. This is the method the trainer/behaviorist recommended to have her figure out that the other dogs are not a threat and good things happen when the other dogs are around. The behaviorist with the ARL said that as soon as we could go outside and walk around and she would get in and out of the car by herself we could start puppy training with other dogs...makes me nervous but maybe with a trainer and other dogs I could learn how to do introductions and not be fearful that they might fight. Hope I am not rambling. Again, thank you all for having conversations with me. Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I've always heard that it takes two calm weeks for a dog to fully recover from acute stress. Is there any way for you to manage the household so that she can take a total break from the other dogs for a while? My foster BC came for a shelter break with a whole host of handling and dog-dog issues. I stuck him in an exercise pen in a room that was gated off from the other dogs and let him drag a leash for a while. He's come along well enough that now I can have him in the yard with my dogs after some parallel walking and a careful intro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted February 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 d112358 - I also have heard it takes a couple of weeks of complete stress free to recover. Unfortuntaley I do not have a way to give her a total break from the other dogs just due to the fact of the logistics in my household. I guess I could put her in a crate in the downstairs but that would mean she would have to stay there for 10-12 plus hours by herself as she learned how to climb out of the exercise pen so that is no longer an option. And after her escapes she immediatley goes to the living room with my mom and the other dogs. I am just really uncomfortable doing that because I feel like she needs the interaction she gets with my mom during the day. Anyone have any thoughts about that long in a crate? Thanks Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I think the lesser evil here may involve a bit of culture shock for your resident dogs and would be harder on your schedule. I would pick up all the toys and keep them out of the living room except for only-dog time - easier way of preventing resource guarding. Since you know she's a resource guarder, feed her separately and don't let her near the other dogs while they're eating - you don't want to develop resource guarding in your own dogs. Set up dog beds situated well away from the foster's crate in the living room, and make your workday a time for the dogs to chill out and nap in your mom's presence. Roughhousing should be discouraged and result in dogs getting put up in a different room, and the loose dogs should also be discouraged from coming towards the crate. At the same time, add outlets for energy in the morning and evening for all the dogs - residents separately from the foster where the other dog (or set of dogs) are put up in another room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 d112358 - We have started doing some of the things you have suggested. Jade goes outside by herself and I play fetch with her. She goes downstairs to my living area with me every night and has a few hours of just her and I and the toys. She is fed in her crate and the others are fed in the kitchen area. I haven't put up all the toys yet but I will work on that this week-end. I have a scenario with a question following that I would really appreciate anyone who is reading this to respond to. Last night when I got home, the resident dogs were out in the living room and I let Jade out of her crate to take her potty. She left the crate, walked out into the room with the other dogs and then we went outside. When we came back in, she walked around the resident dogs, sniffed at them, let them sniff her some and then and laid down. Then she would jump up, run over to them and butt them with her nose...no growling, no open mouth like trying to bite and a couple of times she got down on her front paws and barked like she wanted them to play? On an occassion she would put her paw on one of them like she was boxing them. To me she acts like she wants to be around them.....just not sure how to be. Does this sound like she is trying to play or is this something else going on? I really have no experience in the puppy behavior as I have not owned a pup in over 15 years. Our recent dogs have all been rescue older dogs. I have fostered small puppies....8 weeks old for short periods before they were adopted. I don't want to read something into this that isn't there and I also know that I am on high alert to try and make sure there is no fighting between them. I don't want that to even have a chance to begin. My sister keeps reminding me that the dogs feed off of my emotions and that when I am stressing about them possibly fighting that they sense that...so I am trying to take deep breaths and let some of that go. Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am no expert, and it is hard to know for sure because sometimes the body language is so subtle. But it does sound like she is playing. You may want to research Turgid Rugas. She has an excellent video and book on canine body language. There probably are youtube videos also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Last night when I got home, the resident dogs were out in the living room and I let Jade out of her crate to take her potty. She left the crate, walked out into the room with the other dogs and then we went outside. When we came back in, she walked around the resident dogs, sniffed at them, let them sniff her some and then and laid down. Then she would jump up, run over to them and butt them with her nose...no growling, no open mouth like trying to bite and a couple of times she got down on her front paws and barked like she wanted them to play? On an occassion she would put her paw on one of them like she was boxing them. To me she acts like she wants to be around them.....just not sure how to be. Teri Sounds like one happy puppy! That bopping with the nose is a play move and so is the pawing/boxing and the play bow. It sounds like she is doing very well now. I would keep letting her be with the dogs for short periods of time. As long as she looks playful and relaxed let her stay with them and supervise. Follow your instinct, it sounds like you know it is play but are too worried something bad might happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Good morning everyone. Just thought I would drop by and leave a short update on Jade. Every day seems to get a bit better in her confidence level. Now if I could just learn what to do with the other dogs. I have tried, I think, almost all the suggestions and for a short time most seem to work. Then all of a sudden she is back to biting them and causing them to turn aggressive. I know some of it is the physical restraints of a house becuase it has been so stupid cold out and she can't be trusted to run free in the yard, even though I have a chain link fence. She has chewed through 2 harnesses....but yet she much prefers the harness over the collar. So I am on the look out for a harness that is durable. And I truly suck at training. I haven't a clue I guess even after watching videos and reading books I guess I just don't get it. I am thinking of contacting one of the trainers that specifically work with "puppies" and see if it would be a good idea to take her and work with her with other puppies and to get some help for me. She has finally started laying next to me when she sleeps with me....which just started the last couple of nights. I have seen so much energy from her lately as well. When I come home she carries on something fierce with whining and barking...but I make her become quiet before I release her from the crate. I think that is the thing I should be doing. I imagine most of what I am talking about except the aggression is just puppy stuff and hopefully I will get the hang of it. Tried to introduce her to small children and that didn't go so great. I am sure that is partly my fault as I don't trust her yet either. But she was not impressed with them. Let her stay in her crate but left the door open and let the kids come and sit on my lap as we were close to the crate. With the other dogs, if she is in her crate and they come near me she starts growling and barkig. I cover her crate for 10 minutes or so..some days that is helpful some days not. I need a farm for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I was just thinking about you and Jade last night. You really are working hard to make this work. I admire you. I don't want to discourage you. But it seems like there may just be too much going on in your house to properly work through her issues, at least at this point in her rehabilitation. Your progress seems compromised since there are ample instances where she is in situations that trigger her unwanted behavior. I'm not sure I'm making sense, I'm having trouble finding my words today! Again, I don't want to discourage you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I was wondering why the rescue isn't trying to find an adoptive home for her. The longer they wait the less puppy she will be and the less people she could attract to adopt her. She doesn't need to be a fully trained perfect (no such thing anyway) dog before the rescue should adopt her out. I think it sounds like she would be happy as the only dog in a home and may progress more in that environment. It sounds like you have made wonderful progress but the situation you can offer (a house full of other dogs) may prohibit her progression which is no fault of your own. You now know her well enough to tell prospective adopters about her and see if they can offer her what she needs.also she doesn't need a farm. She needs owners who have no other dogs or maybe one polite dog and the time to continue training and time to exercise her. That's it for most dogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I imagine most of what I am talking about except the aggression is just puppy stuff and hopefully I will get the hang of it. Tried to introduce her to small children and that didn't go so great. I am sure that is partly my fault as I don't trust her yet either. But she was not impressed with them. Let her stay in her crate but left the door open and let the kids come and sit on my lap as we were close to the crate. With the other dogs, if she is in her crate and they come near me she starts growling and barkig. I cover her crate for 10 minutes or so..some days that is helpful some days not. I need a farm for her. Her crate is supposed to be a safe space. I wouldn't let things that might stress her out (other dogs, kids) within 6 feet of it while she's crated. You also know you're a resource that she guards, so try to keep interactions with the other dogs out of her sight, just like you pick toys up off the shared space. Every time she practices flipping out at something it 'burns in' a little more and get harder to train away. The hardest part of training a reactive dog is the intense management to keep them under threshold at all times, and it sound like your household is harder than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Thank you everyone. I was afraid the answer to the solution was her leaving. I guess I will let the rescue know that she needs to be put up on the "adoptable" page and get to work on finding her a home where there isn't so much going on. I truly don't know if we would have even gotten this far if I hadn't found this group. Thank you so much for all your patience with me and all the wonderful advice I have received. Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Waffles, thank you! I have been thinking that I don't really need a farm...I was jesting. But I was beginning to wonder if I was causing her more harm because I can't keep her separate from the other dogs as much as I try...even though part of the time she acts like she really just wants to play with them. And d112348 is 1005 right in that her crate should be her safe haven and I do try to make it that. I have contacted the rescue and told them that we need to start looking for a home for her. I just assumed that we shouldn't try to move her again until she was 100%. I did take her out this week-end to Pet Smart. Carried her in the store, only because she has chewed through two harnesses and she is the houdini of getting out of collars. Needed to buy a new harness and also felt it was time to do some exposure since she for the most part is doing so well with no cowering and no hiding. I put her in a cart and we meandered around the store, buying the harness, food, toys, and just walking. Kept her in a safe place and didn't let people invade her space. She did exceptionally well. The next time I hope to take her walking in with a harness on and also not allowing people to touch her but just letting her walk around and explore. I had asked the behaviorist if it is time to try puppy training classes with other puppies that are not in the home? But maybe she will get adopted quickly because she is a beautiful dog. I just hope I haven't made things totally worse for her, thinking I was helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 jvw, you made total sense and I think I have been feeling the same. Trying to make things better for her but only making them worse because there are too many other distractions and animals. I will keep you all posted on what the rescue tells me and when Jade is adopted. Thank you all again. Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I don't think you've made her worse. You've done a good job! I think there is just too much in your environment that you can't control to get consistent progress. Also I think you've taught each other quite a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Just thought I would drop in and give an update. The behaviorist agrees that it is most likely time for Jade to be put up for adoption. We are waiting on photographer to come and take pictures to put up on the adoptable page. This is going to be a hard one for me to let go but it is the right thing. The behaviorist is trying to find a place where she can bring her Springer Spaniel that she uses with fearful dogs and resource guarding dogs...which definitely describes Jade. She says the Spinger can tell her more in 1/2 hour with a dog than she can learn in 3...so I am excited about that. Because Jade isn't an ARL foster it is more difficult to be able to use their facilitites. I am thinking that some of what I am seeing with Jade isn't really her wanting to be aggressive or even guarding...she wants to play but doesn't know how to start. If she starts off by slapping the daylights out of the dog with her paws, that seems really rude to me and I see the other dogs either laying down submissively (my mom's Shitzpoo) or not liking at all and trying to fight with her (the Boston Terrier)? I don't allow her to do it but then how do I teach her to play nice? Is it even possible to do that? We are trying to get them together outside with no toys to try and get them more comfortable with each other. If there is a spat we don't leave it that way. We try to get a being in the same area with no incident before we take one or both back in. Any suggestions on how I calm that down some. We are working on sit, off, and down. She is just so smart that she figures out what you want her to do and knows there are treats and doesn't wait for you to give the command. Just planks her butt down and looks at you like....OK I did it! Where's my treat? I also have hung sleigh bells on the door to use to go out so we can start training her to use them when she wants to go outside because she is not telling us when she needs to potty...we are just automatically taking her out every few hours. She still occassionally uses a pee pad that I keep down without telling me she needs to go. I would much rather she go outside but if she is going to go inside would rather have on the pad than the carpet and she seems to know what the pads are for. I know that may not work in the household she will go to. When I jingled them yesterday she nearly had a stroke they scared her so bad....but I am going to keep trying to desensitize her with them. I wasn't prepared for the reaction...I didn't realize that noise would scare her. Thanks Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yesterday was the day to take Jade to the ARL and meet the behaviorist and her two dogs. Paula was extremely pleased with the progress that Jade is making. We have a reasonable sit, down, and stay. We worked on fear of new things with the pylons and Paula worked with me on the clicker. I was doing it incorrectly as I suspected. I was trying to hard to get the click and the treat close together. Now that I have a clearer understading the training on the cone and touching my hand went way better. The work with the dogs didn't go quite so well. We still have work around that. Jade is a control freak...imagine that with her history. She is fine with meeting the dog and sniffing and being sniffed but if the dog makes a move she immediately moves in for the snark, a little bit Paula said, like she would move into sheep. No biting. But the next time the dog makes a move she is more aggressive. Paula said it is her trying to control the dog and the more the dog doesn't do what she wants then she ramps up and each time becomes more aggressive. It was very interesting to witness her do that away from the resident dogs where I could really watch what she was doing and not be so caught up in trying to be the one to keep things calm. We didn't even bring the 2nd dog in to work with her. She gave me some exercises to work on using the resident dogs so hopefully we can get her past this. Saturday they will be coming to my house to take pictures to put on the adoptable pages. I am both glad and sad. I have some requirements for the adopting family. I hope I am not being too picky annd restrictive but Jade has come so far I don't want her to fail and get put back in the rescue. The rescue did contact me yesterday about a 60 y/o lady with 2 cats might wanting to adopt her but I think my suggestions/resrictions scared her away. And I do think that is a good thing. Thanks everyone for reading and commenting. Your comments and suggestions really have helped Jade and me alot. I might even be willing to work with an extremely fearful dog again...but maybe not! Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 The work with the dogs didn't go quite so well. We still have work around that. Jade is a control freak...imagine that with her history. She is fine with meeting the dog and sniffing and being sniffed but if the dog makes a move she immediately moves in for the snark, a little bit Paula said, like she would move into sheep. No biting. But the next time the dog makes a move she is more aggressive. Paula said it is her trying to control the dog and the more the dog doesn't do what she wants then she ramps up and each time becomes more aggressive. It was very interesting to witness her do that away from the resident dogs where I could really watch what she was doing and not be so caught up in trying to be the one to keep things calm. We didn't even bring the 2nd dog in to work with her. She gave me some exercises to work on using the resident dogs so hopefully we can get her past this. It is always nice when you can actively observe a situation without feeling the pressure of having to be in control of it. It sounds like the behaviorist gave you a lot of great feedback and some homework to do going forward. It must feel like such a relief to you to have some help and a professional giving you direction. I know how hard you have worked with Jade and it's clear you've made great progress with her thus far. Now you have some new tools in your toolbox to keep helping her along. Saturday they will be coming to my house to take pictures to put on the adoptable pages. I am both glad and sad. I have some requirements for the adopting family. I hope I am not being too picky annd restrictive but Jade has come so far I don't want her to fail and get put back in the rescue. The rescue did contact me yesterday about a 60 y/o lady with 2 cats might wanting to adopt her but I think my suggestions/resrictions scared her away. And I do think that is a good thing. There are many people on these boards who foster. The overwhelming opinion seems to be that having a say in the home your foster is placed in is a very good thing. Right now you know more about this dog then anyone else, I'm glad you will be an active part of her finding the right home! Thanks everyone for reading and commenting. Your comments and suggestions really have helped Jade and me alot. I might even be willing to work with an extremely fearful dog again...but maybe not! Thank YOU for taking this girl in and doing the very best by her. She's come a long way with you and you're setting her up for a long, happy healthy life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 I have some requirements for the adopting family. I hope I am not being too picky annd restrictive but Jade has come so far I don't want her to fail and get put back in the rescue. Good for you! At this point, you know Jade better than anyone else, and your requirements and selectivity may just well go a long way in making the adoption successful when it does happen. If other people don't understand that, then they're not the right fit for this dog. Kudos to you for all the hard work you've done with Jade and all that you've accomplished with her. What you've learned will come back to help you with other fosters in the future, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Camden's Mom and GentleLake, Thank you for your kind words and your support. I will keep you posted on how the girl is doing and I will keep reading the posts to continue to learn! She so deserves a loving active family. I have learned so much from this forum, not just about Jade but training in general. I intend to stay a member even after Jade has her new home. Everyone have a great week-end, Happy 2nd day of Spring, and hopefully they are wrong about snow for us on Monday. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I am so excited! We worked with Jade and Jet (the foster boxer who is a bit more laid back than the Boston Terrier) over the week-end for awhile outside. We have been having them walk by each other in the house but not dilly dallying around! And no snarking so thought this would be a good time to get started with outside introductions. She only made two snarks at him and nothing serious. We worked on the "look at me" while my sister worked with Jet on sit and stay. We will try to get some time every night as well. She still has these moments where she tears around like a wild woman and just pounces on poor Buddy...I guess those are the puppy zooms. How do you redirect before she gets to that point? I don’t normally see it coming…it is generally when she is with mom in the living room. Then we did three really really scary things for her all in one day. The first one was playing with her ball and it jumped into one of the blue recycle waste baskets and no way was she going near it so I decided this should be a confidence builder we should work on. So, I turned the basket over and then deliberately put the ball in the basket. At first she would barely walk up to it…then she got so she would reach in a little ways to get it..that seemed to be the tolerance for the day so we went upstairs…then later I threw it in the basket, it went all the way to the back and she actually put herself in and got the ball and backed out. I praised her like crazy and kept playing and she continued to go after it. YEAH Jade!!!!! Secondly she has been fearful of the bathroom…most likely because the night I brought her home she had to have a bath as she had poop all over her back side and stunk so bad..so bath she had. Just recently she started just coming into the bathroom, sniffing, walking over to the tub and checking it out…so last night I needed a shower and I turned on the water and away she went like a scared rabbit. I went and got the treats and literally scattered them all over the bathroom floor (it is really small) and I climbed in the shower and she came in while I was in it and gathered up all the treats so will try that again tonight. And the last and final was the nail file that is battery operated. She desperately needs her nails trimmed but I am thinking that the groomer is not the place yet. So my sister has the trimmer and we decided we would start working with her. We let her sniff it and touched her with it and talked to her…then Stella turned it on and holy cow…she was gone. So we got more treats, went back to the couch and started over and turned in on and just let her listen to it for awhile. Then Stella touched her and she was gone again. So we tried the third time. She did let it touch her nail and not freak out. So we are going to try every night. We also thought of purchasing numerous batteries and just put it on the floor running and let her explore it some, obviously not unattended. Saturday they came and took pictures so they should be putting her up pretty soon. She has something going on in her mouth. She has a raised area that actually kind of looks like a pimple on her gum right above that baby tooth but it is relatively hard and the base is all red. And she has a much smaller spot on her lip that is hard. Took a picture and sent to the rescue. She was going to send to the vet today. Just thought it would be fun for those reading these posts to see some positive things for Jade. She even is gettting so she doesn' want to sleep in the bed with me anymore but wants to be on her own bed on the floor beside the bed. I am sure the adopting family will really appreciate that. Paula the behaviorist says that she is really really good about rebounding quickly from the adrenaline rush and that she has some very good genes and that is most likely why we are getting such good progress from thealmost total shut down" when I got her. My heart just swells for her to see her become a more normal dog! I know we can have some set backs but I am so hopefully they are short and far between. Have a good rest of the week everyone! Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Glad to hear of this awesome progress. Good Work! I hope she finds a wonderful family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 That's fantastic news, Tdfoster! Isn't it just the best feeling seeing the shy dogs make progress like that? You've been great with Jade, and your experience with her will equip you to be an even better foster mom with other dogs, too! Great job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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