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Help needed with BC/Black Lab mix Marajade - Fostering


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Sorry to be so harsh on you. There will be ups and downs for a long time and it is important to not get fooled into a false sense of security. If there is another incident, the situation may be beyond repair.

 

These dogs require very aggressive and diligent management, which is beyond exhausting. In addition to keeping the world safe from the dog, the dog has to be kept safe from the idiots of the world. I can't tell you how many times, I've told people to keep their leashed dogs out of my leashed dog's space, and the people and dogs have kept coming...and I was forced to get nasty. You need to become your dog's protector from scarey things. There will be a point in which you want to intentionally and slowly expose the dog to scarey things but it may be too soon.

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I understand that there will be ups and downs...some of which I have already seen.

 

Since day 1 I have been told to try and stretch Jade and work on her insecurities and try to build her confidence. Since I am not dog "savvy"...not a trainer...just a person that loves animals and wants to help....I was doing what I thought was right. Bringing her with me, to acclimate her to men...which there are none in my household currently...and work on the socialization. I guess I get confused about how far that means to go...especially when she shows no true aggression or what I have seen as true aggression. (other than the one time here..which was the textbook definition of a fear bite) Everyone at my work is very aware of Jade and her insecurities and of the bite.

 

When Paula comes on Sunday we will have an indepth conversation of how I am to proceed. We are working on the muzzle but she is not the least bit comfortable with it, no matter how many treats I have given and worked with her. And I dont see just putting it on her and making her freak out about it being there as beneficial.

 

"There will be a point in which you want to intentionally slowly expose the dog to scarey things but it may be too soon." Actually I thought that is what I had been working on all along with her. Collar, leash, boxes, waste baskets, loud noises, other dogs, taking food from my hand...

 

Having to bring her to work I felt it was a good time to have a good experience. And maybe I misinterpretted her body language but there was absolutely nothing that gave me any angst while we were there. And most of the contacts were really initiated by her walking towards and wanting to sniff. None of them made any effort to touch her when she made that move. They just let her walk over, while I had the leash, sniff them and then walk away. If I had noticed anything in her demeanor that I felt was threatening I would have intervenned. But I felt like it was a positive thing that she would even go up and want to sniff them. So I am confused about this....When will it be a good time to let her seek others out and sniff at them? If this isn't the right time and I am reading her wrong...how will I know the difference? Are there specific things I should be looking for that I am missing? She wasn't cowering.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I don't want to put her in a backward spiral because I have seen her come so far.

 

Thanks

Teri

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These are all good questions for Paula.

 

I worked with a DVM behaviorist and effectively I had to start over after the dog was put on Prozac. I was told to keep the dog away from her triggers to the extent that it was possible for several weeks to give the drug a chance to reach therapeutic levels and for the circulating stress hormones to decline to baseline levels--the vet called this the "cocoon period". Then the dog was very slowly re-introduced to its triggers. At first, the situations were carefully staged and controlled. I was always very careful about exposing the dog to members of the community for liability reasons, although my dog was not aggressive, she was reactive. Ofcourse with a reactive dog, there is always a fear that the dog could get pushed too hard and bite. If something were to go wrong, it would be better for it to happen in a class with dog savvy people or in a staged situation with dog savvy people than at work or an adoption event or whatever. One may work up to bringing such a dog to adoption events, but not until the dog was totally comfortable in less chaotic, less crowded situations

 

You know, dogs don't have to sniff and be touched by everyone that they see. I rarely let strange people or dogs approach my dogs, but yet they are very very comfortable in public places and around people. Some dogs will never be social butterflies and that is OK--what you don't want is a dog having an anxiety attack if there is a strange person standing 5 feet away.

 

Maybe you live and work in a different world than me, but if someone brought a dog to a place of business and it bit someone (even a minor bite) it would be really really bad.. And never in a million years would the dog be welcome back, nor would it even occur to me to bring the dog back. i don't know, maybe you work in a kennel or grooming shop, someplace where animals are welcome and always present.

 

You may want to acquaint yourself with dog bite law in your state. Here, a bite is a bite, regardless of the cause.

 

Ofcourse this is my personal experience and opinion and others may think differently.

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I really wouldn't classify how you described this as 'textbook definition of a fear bite':

 

 

Jade bit my boss on Friday. She was at work with me as she has been on numerous occassions as I had to take her to the rescue to get her Pro Heart shot and then brought her here with me. As always I have her off leash and she stays in my office. I thought she was beside my desk but she is very stealthy and apparently got up without me seeing her or hearing her. Al was coming down the hallway towards his office, which is beside mine. She somehow got behind him and bit his leg. All he was doing was walking down the hall to his office. There was no warning, no growling no nothing. He had no clue she was behind him. When I knew she was not where she was supposed to be was when he yelled Ouch and I looked up and she was coming out of his office. There was a scrape which has turned into a blood blister today and a bruise.

 

 

Basically there was no warning, no apparent provocation, and she sought him out to bite him. This is why you need to be super careful about reintroducing her to that environment.

 

My vision of a textbook fear bite is a dog that's cornered, is showing a lot of signs of being nervous or uncomfortable, with someone moving forward into their space - stuck in the 'fight' choice of fight or flight.

 

E: I don't mean to be overly harsh. What's done is done, and I understand that you were stuck in a hard situation. My reading of the original bite is why I would recommend she is crated in your office away from everyone with an extra physical layer of the crate keeping her from biting rather than depending on people who enter your office to be smart about it, even with her on a tether.

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I am trying to remember where I read about a fear bite...and when I find it again I will post but paraphrasing it did describe exactly what I described Jade as doing. And both the behaviorist and the 4 trainers from the rescue felt that she intended no real harm or the bite would have been much worse..noise or no noise.

 

Hopefully after Sunday I will have some of my questions answered and we get going on the right track. It is hard for me to determine what is helping and hindering because there is so much conflicting ideas out there on what to do and not to do. And myabe I am just kidding myself and she needs to move to someone else to help her.

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It is hard for me to determine what is helping and hindering because there is so much conflicting ideas out there on what to do and not to do. And myabe I am just kidding myself and she needs to move to someone else to help her.

Don't know if this may help you, but with the reactive young dog I'm currently working with ,I find that her pupil diameter is a good indicator of how stressed she is.

 

When her pupils are huge (almost no iris colour observable), I know that she is finding it hard to cope and remove her away from whatever is stressing her (usually my other dogs). If her pupils are appropriate for the light conditions then I let her continue interacting with others.

 

I don't stare at her when checking out her pupil diameter as she may find this intimidating. I just gauge this by sidewards glances at her.

 

I use 'timeout' in a quiet room and gentle massage to "de-stress" her. I also minimise any playtime with objects (balls) that she may obsess over and don't leave these with her when she is in her quiet space.

 

It's a very slow process, but the length of time she can be around other dogs is gradually increasing. However, there are still periods when she is very edgy and her pupils remain dilated despite everything..on these occasions I really try to minimise her interactions to just me (who she trusts). As I write this, she is curled up next to me on the sofa with her head on my lap and she is completely ignoring the other dogs who are also sleeping nearby.

 

ETA this is a huge step forward..just a few weeks ago, she would be growling and panic barking which would then very quickly escalate to teeth bared and lunging to attack the other dogs if they were even in the same room as her...and I know that tomorrow she could easily relapse back to this state...(this is what I mean by 'edgy')..but because her pupils 'blow' before she starts.growling, I can step in and act before she flips.

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I've got a boy who I call conflicted. He'll approach strangers, wagging his tail, but if they reach for him he backs away quickly. I don't ask him to approach anyone when I can't control the situation. He 'overloads' quite quickly - sometimes I can't tell what is stressing him, I just see the results.

 

I never put him in situations that I know make him uneasy. In your situation, if I had to take him to work, he'd be in a crate. Being tied makes a lot of dogs fearful. And I can toss a blanket over a crate. I'd ask co-workers/supervisors to please ignore him, to call before they came into my office, and then reinforce the humans' good behavior by thanking them, and perhaps buying pizza for the office or the like.

 

Only you can decide if you're the right person or not to continue on working with her. You've got a steep learning curve with the behavioral stuff. She may not ever be a dog who is comfortable with strangers, or she may just surprise you nicely.

 

You've got your work cut out for you, but from what you've written so far, it's reasonable to assume that she can be better than she is.

 

Thanks for doing all that you have done for her!

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs,

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Quick update- The sterile urine showed no growth so no more antibiotics.

 

Paula came yesterday - she had to cancel Sunday due to weather issues..she lives quite a ways a way from me.

 

Since the last time she saw Jade she saw a huge improvement. She watched her with interactions with the other dogs, with herself, and her fear. Today Paula is going to talk to the vet(vet is apparently on day off today so may take a few days to get back to Paula) about what drugs to try and treat Jade with. We may also look into some holistic including some Chineses herbs. Paula believes that Jade has come as far as she can on her own...that we have hit a wall for improvement without some type of chemical intervention - tradional or nontraditional.

 

She left me two indepth training videos for reactive and hyper dogs that I have started to listen to. (Listening to them on my long commute to work) and then I will watch them. Helps me to listen and then watch so I don't focus so much on words when I watch.

 

Talked about bringing Jade to work. Paula believes that we have to teach Jade to make correct decisions. Which I know is what everyone else wants as well. I won't be bringing her to work in the very near future but Paula believes I need and should be doing that with her. We have a plan in place to protect Jade and to protect the guys and make sure that they don't cross the lines of where Jade is comfortable. Also hoping that the meds will help ease some of her anxiety so she can think things through better.

 

I understand that Jade may never be any better than she is now but Paula does think we can build on where she is and get her more comfortable in her own skin and possibly get her fears to be in better control. If not she will be put down.

 

Since the incident with my boss I have been trying really hard to figure out what the trigger was and could be in the future and it is speed. If something moves very fast, this puts her into high gear freak out. He walks very fast. Where I really got connected with the "speed" is at home with our shitzpoo and her reaction to him going like bat out of hell across the linoloeum to get outide(he hates putting his little tootsies on the linoleum). So that is an area where I will try to start working with her.

 

Thanks for listening, all your advice, and trying to keep me on the right track.

 

Teri

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I continue to be perplexed about this work business.

Why does the behaviorist believe that taking the dog to your job will teach the dog to make good decisions?

Can't the dog learn to make good decisions in other environments?

 

Talked about bringing Jade to work. Paula believes that we have to teach Jade to make correct decisions. Which I know is what everyone else wants as well. I won't be bringing her to work in the very near future but Paula believes I need and should be doing that with her. We have a plan in place to protect Jade and to protect the guys and make sure that they don't cross the lines of where Jade is comfortable. Also hoping that the meds will help ease some of her anxiety so she can think things through better.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi everyone. I need some help with getting Jade to eat. For the last three-four weeks she has all of a sudden decided she does not want to eat. She will go three-four days and possibly eat 1/2 cup of kibble. Since we have started her on the Prozac and a holistic chew that has remained the same. I give her the Prozac in peanut butter and she laps that right up. I have tried 6 different kibbles, combining kibbles, adding yogurt which she liked at first, now turns her nose up, putting peanut butter on the kibble which even though she will take the Prozac, wants no part of it being on the kibble. Maybe I shouldn't worry but I do. This morning I tried wet dog food by itself and she ate that. Is just giving her wet dog food bad for her? Somewhere, and I don't know where i got it, it seemed that just wet food wasn't necessarily a good thing. Or does it fall into, whatever she will eat?

 

Thanks in advance for your time and your responses.

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Lack of appetite is a side effect of prozac. You need to speak to the prescribing vet.

 

The behaviorist did not start my dog on the maximun dose of prozac immediately for this reason. The dose was slowly increased overtime until the final dose was reached. At one point, we had to decrease the dose until my dog started eating. Then the dose was increased.

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Thank you Cass C and Blackdawgs. Jade was having issues with eating several days before the Prozac was started. I will do some research on the wet food. Jade is not on the maximum dosage of Prozac either. She wanted to start as low as she could and see how she does on that.

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FWIW: I had a foster dog who came to me on Prozac from the home that relinquished him to rescue. He did not want to eat, and the former owners told me that he didn't like to eat, although he was flabby and mildly overweight. I simply took him off the Prozac, and he immediately started eating and being active and soon was healthy and happy. I am not saying Prozac is wrong for your foster dog, but it may be the factor that is interfering with her appetite.

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Just a short update. Worked with the vet and the behaviorist on the food issue. Have gone to Nature's Balance and hand feeding. Some mornings she will eat...other mornings not. Almost every night though she eats and the vet is fine with that as long as she isn't losing weight and she doesn't appear to be. She said that she can go 7 straight days without eating before causing harm to herself...but I would never let her go that long. Because as you can see from my posts I tend to freak out about that.

 

The most important thing is drinking water every day and she seems to do that. I ask my mom to keep an eye on her and make sure she is drinking. We are back to a nightly routine of her getting a dental bone (she has to find it) and when she is done with that she always goes and drinks water.

 

The Prozac, I think, definitely had an affect but Jade was not eating prior to the Prozac and the behaviorist and I were having discussions about it.

 

My house is in a mess right now as I am having it painted so this does affect Jade. We have decided to wait until the house in back in a normal schedule and things are in their place again and give the Prozac some time to get built up. The vet says it will take about 6 weeks to get her at a therapeutic level.

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Thanks for the update.

 

As for the eating, some dogs are just not big eaters. My girl, Tess, is like that. Sometimes she eats, sometimes she doesn't. She is healthy and always stays at a good weight so I don't worry about it much.

 

To help with feeding you can add water to her kibble, that will help her drink more and it may even help her eat more.

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  • 1 month later...

Just thought I would stop in for a few and give a quick update on Jade. Not going to regurgitate everything over the last several weeks but will try to give the highlights.

 

We have had some really good moments and some not so great but honestly I think the Prozac and the supplement for the brain and calming affect have had a very definitive affect.

 

I am seeing a level of calmness to some degree....there is no snarking at the boxer at all...they actually do some playing tug of war and the famous boxer mouth fighting (not really fighting but playing). The intensity of her play with the Boston is still pretty intense but at much shorter intervals. She is still very possessive of toys she perceives as her and will literally dive like a bird and snatch out of the mouth of the dogs...the boxer put her in her place about the other night and I am trying to work with that as well.

 

Paula came over a week and a half ago to assess how Jade was doing and check on some of our training and to work on barking outside. She was extremely impressed with Jade's calmness. She looked Paula in the eyes, crawled up on the couch beside Paula, and allowed Paula to pet her...none of these has she ever really allowed prior.

 

Because Jade is not eating like I would like to see her, Paula evaluated her gums, her muscle mass, and her coat...she said actually Jade was perfect. Everything looked really good and I needed to not allow her to gain any weight.

 

Paula said that this is the very first time that she felt Jade might be able to be adopted.

 

On the down side, she is still very afraid of sudden movements, loud noises, and get spooked to the point of shutting down for several hours. This has happened twice in the last week...once when my Sister was carrying her to give her a bath and the Boston jumped up and I don't know what happened...whether the Boston was trying to play or actually attack Jade...but Jade cried and went into total shutdown. I sent pictures to Paula and she talked me through what we needed to do...next day Jade was fine. Then Saturday she had been outside exploring like she loves to do...came in and was absolutely petrified again. For the life of me I cannot figure out what happened. But she actually ran from me and cowered like I was beating her....that broke my heart. Again, the next day she was fine.

 

Eating is still very much a challenge. She almost always refuses to eat any breakfast which I am OK with that but I do offer it to her. I hand feed and if after a few times of putting in her mouth she doesn't act like she is ready I leave her alone. Have started using a rolled food, at night adding coconut oil, and other various things to try and get her to eat. I am researching adding some raw food to see if that will help her be more interested. Last night was a really good night for feeding...she ate out of her bowl..which she almost always refuses to do.

 

We will just keep plugging along and see where things go. Thank you all for your thoughts and comments. They are most helpful to me.

 

Teri

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Gentle Lake, Cass C and Tess's girl...thank you for the comments. I think I am lucky that she does like the coconut oil. My sister has found that if we allow her to see us putting the oil on the food, then allow her to lick the spoon...she will eat out of her bowl and sometimes actually eat it all. It is interesting to watch this whole scenario go down and Jade's reaction. I really believe she just does not like the taste of any of the dog food...fish, bison, beef, chicken none of it. That is why I am thinking of adding some raw just to see if that helps. I can't afford to do a whole raw diet either in time or $'s. I have tried different bowls, different places to feed, even going to plates to see if it was the depth of the bowl that bothered her. Nothing made much of a difference. It almost always starts out with my putting the food in her mouth and she will then chew it up.

 

One thing that does help jump start her is Paula suggested that I keep the other three dogs at a distance but feed her while they are watching her and occasionally giving one of them a piece of her food. That made me really nervous at first but it does make a big difference and all the other dogs are really good about keeping a distance while we are working on this. I know that some are going to totally disagree with this and I am fine with that. Right now, I need to find ways to get Jade's brain back on track with eating and I am willing to do what it takes and this does work for her.

 

My son has a boxer that they supplement her with raw at each meal. He has done a ton of research about making sure you get something that includes crushed bones, organs, and meat and added supplements so they get the nutrients they need so I am sort of using him as my mentor in this area. The biggest problem I have is that he lives in Minneapolis with lots and lots of choices on where to get good quality raw food...I am very limited and not comfortable enough just yet that the places I can get frozen raw has a good quality of food...so will keep researching that.

 

I am beginning to think that Jade may end up being a foster failure. I am not sure I can trust someone else to work with her and keep her safe and not lose patience with her. I know there is still a chance that she may not make it through all this so I will wait until we feel we have taken her as far as she can go before I decide anything.

 

It's just so awesome right now to have her seek me out and want to be close. She gets on the couch with me...I know..I am one of those that allows them on the furniture..and she will crawl up close and lay her head across my lap and now at night she is coming up towards the top of the bed and laying right beside me, touching me...such a difference.

 

OK - I have rambled enough. Again...thank you all for your support, your comments, and the upcomings when I need them.

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I have a very picky dog, who if just given plain kibble will not eat. He used to get coconut oil regularly and that was not enough to get him started. For the past couple of years we have been putting small amounts of "teaser" food on his kibble and that seems to get him started. I have used all sorts of things, human leftovers, chicken bits, cooked ground beef, raw ground beef, the off-cuts of meat that I am cooking, zucchini, at the moment I have discovered a selection of terrines in jars that are really inexpensive and he loves, he usually only gets a couple of tablespoons.

 

Edited: I was so busy writing about food that I forgot to say what a great job you have been doing and I love reading your updates

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Thanks Cass C. It's just I have to be done with fostering if we become failures but I really want to do what is best for Jade.

 

It appears she may be adjusting a bit better to the Prozac too as I am seeing some of her former playful self returning. She hasn't wanted to play fetch inside for a bit but the last two nights she has gone and gotten the rope and brought to me to play. In my mind, another good sign that we are moving in the right directions.

 

Everyone have a great week-end....hopefully spring is really on its way in. :)

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