So What kind of Herding Do You Do?

[RoseAmy]

So I run into an old friend. I have one of my dogs with me. We chat and then she says you just have to meet Connie she would love to meet you she herds!!!

 

Well Connie walks up with a Rottie and proceeds to tell me that he has his tk td it ut mt uk. I assume she is rattling off akc titles. I smile politely as she tells me that she uses a handler to trial him as she can't walk fast enough to keep up.. I have no idea so I keep smiling politely.

 

She finally stops and says what titles do you have? Politely I tell her I don't do akc herding. She says all she does other kinds to abc cba, me I don't have a clue. I just keep (hopefully) smile politely.

 

Then she says Well what kind of herding do you do? Me. Well the kind where I stand here and my dog has to run out anywhere from 300 to 500 yds. bring back the sheep then while I stay here my dog has to drive them away 100yds or so. Her. Oh my that sounds hard.

 

So what kind of herding do you do??

[Smalahundur]

The kind where I climb on my horse, leading another one along and accompanied by Gláma, disappear for two days in the hills behind the farm with a couple of neighbours also on horseback or on quads. To hopefully reappear with a significant amount of sheep and lambs.

[Jumpin Boots]

Well, currently we have two versions. 1. Pup is going great, looking good, listening. Or 2. Crazy woman running across field at said pup as he has flipped the dew claw and decided that since once again his want-to-be handler has late commands, he knows better.

 

We are aspiring for the previously mentioned scenarios.

[Sue R]

We have thirty cows and first-time heifers that we calve out each year starting in the end of February or the first week in March. We deal with first-time mothers, experienced mothers, mothers who need help (rarely after years of culling), clueless mothers (occasionally but not often), and just plain mothers.

 

In the late summer to mid-fall, we pre-condition about thirty calves (from said mothers) and that involves bringing them in twice a day for feeding. My one dog may have to traverse several fields/fencelines to fetch calves through those fields and fence openings (which are not at all on line with each other or to me) for the morning feeding, sometimes in the dark before work, where we have to go on trust and his instinct. My other dog, who does not have an outrun, and I have to go out and work together. He's the go-to dog when stock gets out and needs lots of pressure to push them back through the fence; when stock needs lots of pressure to pen up for working; or when I need to keep stock back off me when I'm feeding supplement.

 

Balancing and putting the right pressure on loose, scared calves who decide they only want their momma but are too afraid to face the fence; staring down a half-dozen adult cows when they need to be turned and moved; gathering a scattered group of thirty calves (some of whom may still be in their night beds and are not yet ready and wanting to be up); moving a new mother heifer and her first calf from the field to a shelter in the barn when she barely knows what to do with this little stranger except to protect it from the obvious danger that she perceives are the dogs; finding and bringing back a clueless newborn that has gone under the wire and bedding in rough grass and brush, and whose worried mother's calls have not aroused him/her to get up and come back.

 

No titles. Not even pretty work some days. I hope someday to be a reasonable handler, earn my dogs' trust, and be able to work better with them and in guiding them. In the meantime, we get mud and manure on our boots and paws, and get the job done. I rest better with the work done than I ever would with ribbons on my wall (as if *that* would ever happen).

 

Maybe, some day, both I and a dog of mine just might be able to trial but not for ribbons - for the learning experience.

 

PS - I've gotten away from using the term "herding" because, to me, the word has become to mean something different from what it once meant, which was the use of a instinct-driven dog to help a farmer or rancher manage his/her stock with reduced stress, less effort, more efficiency, and a companion ready, willing, and able to do a day's work, whatever that involved. I prefer to think of it as "stockwork" because that's what it is to me - the learning process and the actual work of managing livestock.

[GentleLake]

ROTFL! Thanks for the laugh -- or should I say guffaw!? I needed that.

 

It reminds me of the time -- I may have told this story here on the boards already. Forgive me if I'm repeating myself -- many years ago when I took one of my dogs to a large ACK match show and canine educational event to have her eyes checked by a canine opthalmologist. We were waiting for our appointment time, perusing the booths and such, and saw that they were conducting a herding instinct test. I watched as any number of people brought their show dogs into the ring and became exasperated as their GSDs, Rough Collies, Belgian Shepherds, etc. showed little or no interest in the ducks. People were pushing their dogs toward the ducks and getting instinct certificates if the dogs so much as looked at the ducks. There were ooohs and aaahs when a Bearded Collie pup thought the ducks were moving toys and was pouncing all over them.

 

Now my dog Kate wasn't an especially talented sheepdog, and I wasn't an especially talented handler, but we managed with our own sheep at home and I knew we could do a whole lot better than that and thought folks might enjoy seeing what a herding dog should be doing. So we walked over to the sign up person and I asked if we could give it a try.

 

The woman turned around, looked at me, looked down at my dog (who wasn't all shiny and spiffily groomed), looked up at me again and then -- without saying a word to me -- turned around and walked away.

 

I guess she knew what kind of herding we did and didn't want us showing them up for the idiots they were.

 

So, yeah . . . what kind of herding do you do? Not the same kind, apparently, as they do.

[Sue R]

Sorry if I took the question too seriously.

[GentleLake]

I thought your post was great, Sue. It definitely what kind of herding you do . . . and it's not the kind Connie and her Rottie do.

[Gloria Atwater]

I actually love BOTH posts - Sue's and RoseAmy's! It's a perfect illustration of the disconnect between "herding" and what real stock work is all about.

Thank you, ladies! A good guffaw and a good read, all in one post.

~ Gloria

[RoseAmy]

Sue I loved your post. I've run into this before and it always leaves me speechless. How does one explain what it is we do.

 

Next question I'm asked is "If you don't get titles what do you get?"

[mum24dog]

I thought your post was great, Sue. It definitely what kind of herding you do . . . and it's not the kind Connie and her Rottie do.

 

Does it really matter? She's doing something with her dog and is proud of him.

 

I keep my thoughts to myself when someone is clearly deluded - who am I to burst their bubble?

[Sue R]

What do I get? Manure and mud just about anywhere you can imagine, and places you'd rather not imagine. Having to be outside when I really would rather be in by the fire, or in by a fan, or with my feet up watching a movie. Stiffness and soreness, or a jarred joint or back from trying to maneuver on ground that might be frozen stiff and ragged, slick with rain or mud or ice or snow, or just churned up by cattle hooves. A throat that's raw from yelling (I do really need to learn how to whistle and get the dogs to know whistles but thank goodness it's a small farm) some days. A wardrobe that consists of old boots, ratty jeans, jackets with broken zippers, sweat-stained ball caps, and gloves with tips of fingers missing. Sometimes, enormous frustration. And often enough, moments of transcendent joy and amazement to see a dog work with instinct, listening to me, and making my work ever so much easier - or, certainly, ever so much more enjoyable.

 

And then, at the end of the day, to hear contented dog snores and dreaming dog feet "running" from the dog beds around our room.

 

Sue I loved your post. I've run into this before and it always leaves me speechless. How does one explain what it is we do.

 

Next question I'm asked is "If you don't get titles what do you get?"

[GentleLake]

[gcv-border]

Love this topic. Hope to read more.

[Covelo Dogs]

I am enjoying these posts so much! The pup listening and doing great to the next of pup flipping its dewclaw, LOL. This was very visual for me and so in need of a good laugh. Then Sue's wonderful post which I can also relate to as I have been there and done that! Also saddling the horse and going out for days with good dogs and friends to gather cattle in the mountains hoping we find them all and whatever early calves have been born.

Thank you all for the wonderful posts, nice way to end my day!

[PSmitty]

Does it really matter? She's doing something with her dog and is proud of him.

 

Yes, exactly.

 

 

 

 

And now I remember why I don't post much here anymore.

[Maja]

Nice posts!

[terrecar]

Sorry if I took the question too seriously.

 

I actually found your answer rather interesting, since I've seen cattle 'managed' sans dog. It was a train-wreck. I used to live on a cattle farm (old farmhouse divided into apartments) and cannot tell you the number of times a lone calf wandered off from the herd. Sometimes the entire herd got out of the fencing, at which point they were "herded" down the lane by the owner's daughter (brandishing a mop). It really was quite comical, except that I am surprised the owners never got sued--sometimes a stray calf would end up on the main road at night. They were black angus.

 

ETA: My point being that they sure could have used a well trained dog (only expressed in my usual ADHD writing style)

[RoseAmy]

Just for the record in no way was my intent to belittle anyone but myself.

 

I wrote this thread tongue in check poking fun at MYSELF! This is not the first time I've encountered this. I have no clue what all those letters are or what they mean or what you do to get them. The conversation always turns towards what titles I have when I explain I don't get titles, the next questions are "Just what kind of herding do you do and what do you get". At which point I feel like the village idiot trying to explain in a zillion words or less what I do and what I get from it.

[Smalahundur]

Maybe you could spare those zillion words and tell them you do the only kind of herding...

[Gideon's girl]

I only have a small place, a few goats, about 40 free range chickens, and a calf. The dogs have to take turns helping with chores, because 2 is too many with such small jobs. They round up the goats and drive them into their night pen, then they gather the chickens and put them in their coop, then they keep the bottle raised steer from trampling me while I put his food out. Sometimes they help me move him. Each job takes a completely different understanding of what it takes to get the job done and I love how they have figured out exactly what is needed for each one.

[Sue R]

I thought your post was wonderful, and pointing out the "great divide" between dogs that do real work for a living and dogs that do "herding" as an activity and a source of ribbons (for the owner's satisfaction and/or bragging rights).

 

And I, too, have been caught off guard by a question, such as a Beagle showman asking me if I saw the BC that won (again) at Westminster and didn't I think he was such a beautiful specimen and so representative of the breed. I was caught between being polite and nice, and being honest. I tried for polite honesty but apparently failed as I don't think that man ever said another word to me again. Ever.

 

I just told him that I felt a show-bred BC was not a real BC; that a dog like that couldn't work livestock if its life depended on it; and that the only value judgment of a BC was whether or not it could work stock (with, of course, the multitude of characteristics that that involves). I said it all as nicely as I could but he was taken aghast at my heresy and pointed out that the dog had "herding titles" which, if I remember correctly, amounted to passing an instinct test. Of course, he is of the camp that believes that working traits (be it a "herding" breed, bird dog, rabbit dog, etc.) are hard-wired in and all that is important to select for is the show standard because then you will breeding for "perfection".

 

Have I just gotten on my high horse again and started to rant? Methinks so...

 

Just for the record in no way was my intent to belittle anyone but myself.

 

I wrote this thread tongue in check poking fun at MYSELF! This is not the first time I've encountered this. I have no clue what all those letters are or what they mean or what you do to get them. The conversation always turns towards what titles I have when I explain I don't get titles, the next questions are "Just what kind of herding do you do and what do you get". At which point I feel like the village idiot trying to explain in a zillion words or less what I do and what I get from it.

[GentleLake]

Sue, I don't think you missed your mark in being politely honest, rather that the man was unable (or more likely unwilling) to comprehend what you were saying and therefore cut you off from his circle of people he deems worthy of conversing with. A lot like the woman who (pre-ACK) thought border collies were such a wonderful breed but that it was a shame we didn't have a standard.

 

And we all know how rigorous and useful that herding instinct test really was . . .

 

People like that aren't able (or, again, willing) to entertain a concept that isn't in their world view. It's their failing, not yours.

[Liz P]

I pissed off someone this week who told me their Pom "herds" her. It bites her ankles when she turns away and starts walking. I tried to explain to her that he was just biting her and that dogs lacking in confidence bite at the backs of ankles/legs because they don't have the guts to face a threat head on. I explained it very politely, but she was very deflated that I didn't agree her non herding dog was, in fact, herding her.

[Gideon's girl]

I had the conversation just acouple day ago about the dog not being confused and thinking that the people, the cars, the toys, and the other pets in the house were sheep. They could not understand the simple concept that the dog can and should and probably does know the difference between the animals that can and should be herded and everything else that moves.

[Sue R]

Thanks. One of the dogs this man had at his presentation at the local AKC affiliate club was the most lovely little Beagle I've ever met - quiet, polite, cute as a button. But not a worthy dog, he pointed out, because his color was not right - rather lemony instead of the proper brown. Fortunately, DH did not discount me for having green eyes instead of some other color when we first met...

Sue, I don't think you missed your mark in being politely honest, rather that the man was unable (or more likely unwilling) to comprehend what you were saying and therefore cut you off from his circle of people he deems worthy of conversing with. A lot like the woman who (pre-ACK) thought border collies were such a wonderful breed but that it was a shame we didn't have a standard.

 

And we all know how rigorous and useful that herding instinct test really was . . .

 

People like that aren't able (or, again, willing) to entertain a concept that isn't in their world view. It's their failing, not yours.