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Okay, I need some advice. So it's been awhile since I've had a puppy. I've worked with other people's dogs, doing everything from tricks to basic obedience to behavioral intervention for fearful dogs, but not really more than one or two young puppies. But I remember my own girl as being very precocious and food-motivated. I was an ignorant, first-time dog owner and college student, and yet I have videos of her doing sit, down, come, stay, and heel at 3 months, with her head high and eyes glued on me. Obviously, she did have some lapses in attention. Fine, that's normal. And once she hit adolescence, all bets were off, and she lost much of her food motivation for a year or two. As an adult she's reliable again. I understand that's (again) the normal progression.

 

But Obi has me stymied. She can hear (lot of white, I did wonder). And she can learn (she'll do sit, down, and touch in low distraction environments, and in higher ones with a lure or two to start her off). BUT she cannot learn her name. And you can tell she just doesn't want to engage in training AT ALL. We make it very fun, smelly and easily chewable or lickable food items of all sorts, 2 minutes or less, once or twice a day. I've tried taking a break from it completely for several days on end, to just give her a mental vacation.

 

But she wants nothing to do with it. She'd rather lay on the floor and lick it, or bit at it, that eat a cookie. Even if she's had nothing to eat for hours. She'll do this for minutes on end.

 

I know licking inanimate objects can be a sign of GI distress. But her stools are normal, she's been dewormed, etc. She plays and runs and chases my older dog, has really come around with people (wants to run up and greet everyone, from little kids to tall men). She never has accidents, doesn't mouth, is quiet in her kennel.

 

In other words, she's perfect...EXCEPT she wants nothing to do with training. Doesn't want to learn anything. I have to admit, I find this incredibly frustrating. I've tried using toys as motivators, which is harder but doable, and she just doesn't get it. No matter how many times I run away from her, call her name, give her a toy/play tug, she doesn't associate it with giving me her attention. Mer has always been so quick to pick things up via association (she's learned multiple cues just by associating a word with the action, like "go upstairs" or "look on the floor" or "get back"). But Obi seems clueless.

 

Any advice/similar experiences? Am I expecting too much? I thought she might be just a slow learner, so really didn't do alot of training, even though I know most puppies her age are very capable of doing it. But she at least needs to learn her name. And I thought she would be able to do that.

 

EDIT: I should add, other things I've tried: trying to reward her when I recall Mer, since she usually follows Mer. Even if I could get a general recall instead of her name, I'd take that, for safety's sake. But Obi won't take a food reward, even people food. I've also tried working her with Mer, or working Mer outside her crate and then putting Mer away and taking Obi out. No increase in interest.

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It sounds like you have a real challenge! Best of Luck! (I mean that in a good way. I really hope she has a light-bulb moment and she starts liking training.)

 

One person I know has a dog that is quite anxious and did not start out either food or toy motivated. What worked for her was to physically play with her dog. Her dog seemed to enjoy a game where the owner pushed her away, and then the dog would jump back at her to be pushed away again. Great game in the dog's mind - and thus, this game became a reward and opened the door to training. She was also able to use this reward to transfer value to toys.

 

Can you think of anything that your dog really, really loves besides what she is doing? Will she run after you if you act crazy?

 

Someone on these boards reported that she knew a dog that would work for Kleenex. Now that was weird, but you have to use whatever works.

 

BTW, how old is Obi? If he is only 3 months old (you made mention of comparing your other puppy at 3 months), maybe he just needs a little more time?

 

Jovi

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How do you reward her? Do you just give it to her or do you make am event out of it?

 

I love this video clip. Yes, they pup is into it, but the handler is putting a ton of energy into it too - the movement, the way she rewards, running around with the pup are all helping to keep the pup engaged with her. Basically she isn't teaching the pup much except that engaging with her is fun and rewarding.

 

FWIW, my first BC could have doubled for Lassie. The second one learned the cats name in three repeats when I didn't want him too but it took 6 months to teach him to lie down. I was wondering what in the world I had gotten myself into with him. Today he is very focused and an eager learner but it took 3-4 months of building a foundation before he got the concept of learning.

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She does like toys. Actually, the only training we're doing at this point is asking her to sit, down, or touch before she gets a toy. She basically won't work for food at all. She will chase me, and I've tried running away, calling her name as she runs toward me, then acting all happy and excited when she catches up (she likes that, starts bouncing all over) or throwing her a toy.

 

But even after multiple repetitions (over the course of days, not all at once), she doesn't respond to her name AT ALL. It's like (even though she's learned a few commands) she doesn't fundamentally understand the concept of training by associating verbal cues with an action, and then rewarding it. She doesn't seem to easily make the leap that that cue means a reward will follow. There are things she likes, but nothing she will really WORK for, nothing that really captures her attention completely. Sorry if that's confusing, I'm not articulating it well.

 

It sounds like you have a real challenge! Best of Luck! (I mean that in a good way. I really hope she has a light-bulb moment and she starts liking training.)

 

One person I know has a dog that is quite anxious and did not start out either food or toy motivated. What worked for her was to physically play with her dog. Her dog seemed to enjoy a game where the owner pushed her away, and then the dog would jump back at her to be pushed away again. Great game in the dog's mind - and thus, this game became a reward and opened the door to training. She was also able to use this reward to transfer value to toys.

 

Can you think of anything that your dog really, really loves besides what she is doing? Will she run after you if you act crazy?

 

Someone on these boards reported that she knew a dog that would work for Kleenex. Now that was weird, but you have to use whatever works.

 

BTW, how old is Obi? If he is only 3 months old (you made mention of comparing your other puppy at 3 months), maybe he just needs a little more time?

 

Jovi

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Oops, darn sorry for putting two separate replies. Yep, get really excited. Happy voice, no corrections, run around the yard like an idiot. Mer had zero food motivation for a year and a half following adolescence, so I had to do the whole act excited and really focus on building interaction with toys and praise routine. Obi likes it and will follow me around, but again, doesn't really seem to focus intensely on anything. She just bobs along on the current of life, generally sort of happy and oblivious. Nothing gets her excited enough to act as a reward.

 

How do you reward her? Do you just give it to her or do you make am event out of it?

 

I love this video clip. Yes, they pup is into it, but the handler is putting a ton of energy into it too - the movement, the way she rewards, running around with the pup are all helping to keep the pup engaged with her. Basically she isn't teaching the pup much except that engaging with her is fun and rewarding.

 

FWIW, my first BC could have doubled for Lassie. The second one learned the cats name in three repeats when I didn't want him too but it took 6 months to teach him to lie down. I was wondering what in the world I had gotten myself into with him. Today he is very focused and an eager learner but it took 3-4 months of building a foundation before he got the concept of learning.

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Maybe she just needs more time? Kipp was not quite 2 y/o when I got him and it took him a good 3-4 months to get into the whole training/learning reward thing.

 

And FWIW all 3 of mine have been vastly different in the learning styles department. I learn how to train one dog then I get another and need to learn all over again.

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Yeah. I guess I just need to keep looking for the thing that really makes her light up. I think that's why I'm getting disappointed/frustrated: my only reference point is Mer, who has been incredibly intense her entire life and very highly motivated (first with food, then with toys--she was obsessed with fetch by 9 weeks, and now with both). Obi is just very laid back and happy-go-lucky, and I'm struggling to find a way to connect with her. Will keep trying :rolleyes:

 

Maybe she just needs more time? Kipp was not quite 2 y/o when I got him and it took him a good 3-4 months to get into the whole training/learning reward thing.

 

And FWIW all 3 of mine have been vastly different in the learning styles department. I learn how to train one dog then I get another and need to learn all over again.

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She could just need time. My sister border collie is just starting to understand basic training at 4 years old(thankfully!). Before asking him to focus longer then 30 second would earn you a blank look and anything you asked of him was gone with the breeze.

 

I dont know your story but if it really bothers you. You can keep her on a 30 foot leash that way she always is reminded to come at her name (there is no other options ).

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can you work it into general play? my Happy is the smartest dog I have, but she HATES training, she will shut down, start avoidence behaviours etc.. if I set out to actually "train" something. rather I have her in a room while I train my other dogs and just have her watch, then I give her the same commands while playing a game of fetch for example. but for the most part Happy works for work, she has no interest in rewards,her "reward" is usually "good" or "thanks" short and breif with no special tone. try to throw her a party and will leave, even with toys, she wont respond to obvious training with toys as a reward, snd she wont do any tricks for other people to get them to throw a toy. for the record Happy is trained in more sports and more tricks then all my other dogs combined. all of it I just had her watch other dogs then tell her to do it, good luck trying to train her any other way lol

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We make it very fun, smelly and easily chewable or lickable food items of all sorts . . .

 

But Obi won't take a food reward, even people food.

 

Is there anything super high value that you haven't tried giving her? Meatball, liverwurst, cooked chicken, etc?

 

Also, is there anything she eats eagerly outside of the context of training?

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How does she do with hand signals/body language? Some of us are visual learners, wonder if some dogs are like that too. Does she follow your hand into a sit or a down? You can at least teach concepts before focussing on language if she prefers visual signals. Clapping hands might substitute for "come".

 

You said she's not deaf -- is her hearing as good as your other dog's or perhaps worse? If you say she's not food-motivated, then I assume she doesn't come running everytime you open the fridge (my check for hearing ability. )

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She doesn't eat ANYTHING eagerly. Doesn't DO anything eagerly. Her personality is very sweet, very playful and happy now, but she doesn't get really excited about anything. Not enough for it to act as a motivator, to really inspire focus on the person with the food (or even the food itself, just sitting on the floor). Tugging is the best, followed by tennis balls and fluff toys, followed by running and sort of happy voice, rough petting at the end. But even that is just playful attention, easily lost, with no excitement or focus.

 

I did try baby food last night. THAT was actually the most excitement I've ever seen out of her. Will try it again. And then I think I just need to (as you said) start exposing her to all sorts of different foods, try and find something (anything) that really captures her attention.

 

EDIT: Chicken (Mer's favorite), she will spit out. Besides meatballs and liverwurst, any other suggestions? Thanks!

 

Is there anything super high value that you haven't tried giving her? Meatball, liverwurst, cooked chicken, etc?

 

Also, is there anything she eats eagerly outside of the context of training?

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Oops, sorry again. But I want to reply, so it is clear, and people can give the best advice. So, I start most training with hand signals, as Mer (and most dogs I've worked with) seem to do better, as you say. Obi doesn't seem very astute at even associating a visual cue with a reward, mainly because when I "reward" her with food she spits it out. And yep, she'll spit it out even if we're not training or I'm not near her. She usually eats her dinner/breakfast alright, but only if at least 10 hours have gone by.

 

You are also right about her hearing. I don't think it is anywhere near as good as Mer's, and wouldn't be surprised if she is partially deaf. It's hard to tell. Should just get her BAER tested. Sometimes she responds to a loud noise, sometimes not. She doesn't seem to respond to human voices the way most puppies will (orient to them in a quiet room), but will orient towards a soft, peculiar noise (like blowing or a whistle or a duck call). She doesn't respond to fridges or crinkling bags, but then she doesn't like treats, so...

 

I will try to be clearer about her visual signals though, just in case she can't always hear me. Thanks.

 

How does she do with hand signals/body language? Some of us are visual learners, wonder if some dogs are like that too. Does she follow your hand into a sit or a down? You can at least teach concepts before focussing on language if she prefers visual signals. Clapping hands might substitute for "come".

 

You said she's not deaf -- is her hearing as good as your other dog's or perhaps worse? If you say she's not food-motivated, then I assume she doesn't come running everytime you open the fridge (my check for hearing ability. )

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Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Urban Borders writes that her pup doesn't like training. I think it's fairer to say that the pup doesn't like one method of training. There are other methods of training pet dogs, you know, and some are at least as successful as what the puppy is rejecting. Koehler, Milan, Benjamin and Volhard come to mind.

 

Donald McCaig

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She doesn't eat ANYTHING eagerly. Doesn't DO anything eagerly. Her personality is very sweet, very playful and happy now, but she doesn't get really excited about anything. Not enough for it to act as a motivator, to really inspire focus on the person with the food (or even the food itself, just sitting on the floor). Tugging is the best, followed by tennis balls and fluff toys, followed by running and sort of happy voice, rough petting at the end. But even that is just playful attention, easily lost, with no excitement or focus.

 

My recommendation would be to focus, for now, on building her enjoyment of those things, independent of training sessions. In order for anything to operate as a reinforcer, the dog much have a desire for it. Sometimes, and I know I've done this, in our eagerness to get training, we become more focused on the training goal than on the dog's enjoyment of the reinforcer. And in the early stages of training, that enjoyment is so important.

 

Since she likes to run, have you tried tossing treats? Not in the context of training, but just as a fun thing for her to do?

 

Something like that is really nice to use as an early training reinforcer, especially with a dog who tends to lack motivation.

 

I did try baby food last night. THAT was actually the most excitement I've ever seen out of her. Will try it again. And then I think I just need to (as you said) start exposing her to all sorts of different foods, try and find something (anything) that really captures her attention.

 

Suggestions:

 

Peanut Butter

Liverwurst

Lightly seared stewing cubes (so the inside is still raw)

Home made liver treats

Different cheeses (seriously, Maddie loved cheddar, but was only "eh" about mozzarella)

 

The nice thing about these is that once you find what the dog gets excited over, you can use them sparingly.

 

As food motivation is built, often lower value treats do gain importance.

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So, I start most training with hand signals, as Mer (and most dogs I've worked with) seem to do better, as you say. Obi doesn't seem very astute at even associating a visual cue with a reward, mainly because when I "reward" her with food she spits it out. And yep, she'll spit it out even if we're not training or I'm not near her. She usually eats her dinner/breakfast alright, but only if at least 10 hours have gone by.

 

You mention verbals and hand signals. Have you given her the opportunity to offer uncued behavior?

 

Something like Doggie Zen might help her to get started in understanding what the reinforcer is all about. You can play Doggie Zen with a toy that she finds exciting, as well.

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Sigh. I dislike the other methods out there (this is, admittedly, a personal preference), and believe they should not be used for a fearful or aggressive dog, as they increase anxiety and can exacerbate aggression. Since this puppy was very reserved even when I picked her up at eight weeks, I have been trying to make our interactions as enjoyable and upbeat as possible; she has definitely decided (I believe because of this) that new people, for instance, are not to be feared. Additionally, it is very difficult to train agility using the methods mentioned.

 

Mr. McCaig, that being said, I will not tolerate a dog that does not come when called. If that means she has to be either in a kennel or on a line until she learns this skill, then so be it. I don't think I would ever use a shock collar; I would give a puppy to someone who knew how to train a completely non-toy and -food motivated dog before that, as things can go very wrong (the dog can become fearful, aggressive, or shut down) if you are not an effective trainer with impeccable timing. Positive reinforcement gives much more leeway to make a mistake. I don't think I am that good of a trainer, and I have no experience with any of the methods you mentioned.

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Cool, thank you for the suggestions about food. Yep, I love capturing. That was how she learned "sit." I want to capture other things, but she will not take food rewards and toys seem to be harder to use when teaching a behavior (they are much easier to use as reinforcers for an already learned behavior). Thought I would try a clicker to help with marking things, and she was terrified of it, so I put that away after one brief session.

 

She will not eat treats, even if I toss them like a toy (thought the motion would make them more appealing). If I leave her in a room with different treats, the only ones she will eat are peanut butter or baby food. She will work for these, but only if very hungry and not with much enthusiasm.

 

What is Doggie Zen?

 

EDIT: When I run with and then toss, or toss treats like a toy, she will chase the treats and then stand there biting them. Then she will start biting or licking the floor, and will continue until she is interrupted. Do you think I should just feed her PB and baby food and praise her, to try and build the value?

 

EDIT AGAIN: Sorry, I don't mean to shoot ideas down or anything, I will be trying to just make her happier about eating in general. I'm just frustrated because this dog is so untrainable (for me!). She doesn't act like the handful of other BC puppies I've met at all (who were mostly happy, friendly, mischievous training sponges), and it has me stumped.

 

You mention verbals and hand signals. Have you given her the opportunity to offer uncued behavior?

 

Something like Doggie Zen might help her to get started in understanding what the reinforcer is all about. You can play Doggie Zen with a toy that she finds exciting, as well.

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Cool, thank you for the suggestions about food. Yep, I love capturing. That was how she learned "sit." I want to capture other things, but she will not take food rewards and toys seem to be harder to use when teaching a behavior (they are much easier to use as reinforcers for an already learned behavior). Thought I would try a clicker to help with marking things, and she was terrified of it, so I put that away after one brief session.

 

I agree that toys are usually easier for reinforcing behaviors that the dog already knows. Although, for a recall, I think you could use toys nicely.

 

You could have the tug, hold it behind your back or something, and toss something on the floor that will pull the dog's focus off of you.

 

Then call your dog's name (or your recall word) - wait for the dog to turn back to you, mark (I use a tongue click with a dog that can't handle the sound of a clicker), and reinforce with the tug toy.

 

Maybe do this once or twice and then quit. Once you have done this for several days, you can up the criteria by having another person distract her briefly, call her name, mark and reinforce with the tug. Eventually take it outside, etc.

 

The nice thing about using the tug to reinforce the recall is that it will build a very strong response to the cue.

 

The key with this will be to move slowly until it is clear that she is really getting it.

 

What is Doggie Zen?

 

It is a game where the dog has to figure out (without being told) that in order to get what he or she wants, he or she must choose to back off of it.

 

With treats, this is taught by holding some treats in a fist and then offering the fist to the dog. The dog is allowed to try to get the treats, but as soon as the dog stops trying (usually the dog stops for a second to try to figure out how to get at the treats), mark, open the fist, and give the dog the treat.

 

The same thing can be done with a small toy.

 

I've used this game to teach several different concepts to different dogs. For some it is, "to get what you want, you need to refrain from trying to get it". For others, it has been, "your choice can get you a reinforcer". For others, it is a foundation self control exercise, or a foundation confidence exercise. This can also be used to teach eye contact, although I don't tend to use it for that.

 

The name, I believe, comes from Sue Ailsby's Levels.

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EDIT AGAIN: Sorry, I don't mean to shoot ideas down or anything, I will be trying to just make her happier about eating in general. I'm just frustrated because this dog is so untrainable (for me!). She doesn't act like the handful of other BC puppies I've met at all (who were mostly happy, friendly, mischievous training sponges), and it has me stumped.

 

I didn't take it as you shooting ideas down.

 

I can definitely see how that would be very frustrating.

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This might not be very helpful input, but I keep reading how frustrated you are with the puppy. It's hard to *completely* mask such emotion when training dogs (to do anything), so no matter what the hiccup is on her end right now, your frustration likely isn't helping. Maybe step away from all training for a bit and just learn to enjoy each other? The BAER test isn't a bad idea. Something seems off.

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I posted elsewhere one time regarding my, now 2.5 year old, as she was when she first came to us. We thought she was deaf for the first 2 weeks we had her. The only reason we decided she wasn't was because she showed interest when she could hear the other dogs bark. She had little interest in anything else, barely would take treats. We named her Indy for Independent. She spent a lot of her time just looking around or sleeping, totally detached from our world. We started labeling her autistic. She did enjoy interacting with my other dogs. Eventually I started playing my version of crate games with her. She spent a good deal of time in her crate for a few weeks at about 3-4 months old, very little interaction with the other dogs, just enough to keep her in their pack, all fun would come from/with me. I hand fed her her meals working towards rewarding any good behavior that she offered... I also used a clicker. She was a little more food motivated then it sounds like your pup is, but initially this had to be built, as she could take it or leave it in the beginning. She had NO play drive, no interest in toys at all. One day she started showing a bit of interest in me pushing her and playing with her physically, which lead to her tugging on my shirt sleeves, something I normally would not encourage but at least it was something, I did encourage it and at times it continues today :)! It took until she was 7 months old for her to hang on to a toy for a very, very short session of tug. We thought she had absolutely no drive but was, and is, the sweetest dog. I NEVER thought she would end up having what it takes to be a decent agility pup.

 

What am I learning? Each dog is different, finding the motivators can be a real challenge, frustrating and exhausting, patience is my friend and I am not a patient person. She entered her first trial in January and came away with High In Trial Novice. She now loves to "train" but we call it and treat it like play. I allowed her to grow at her pace and I am thankful for the lessons she has taught me, it has made me a better doggie friend and trainer. Had I of forced her, I think I would have ruined her. Oh and she has the best recall of any of my dogs... who woulda thought.

 

Hope this story helps.

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This might not be very helpful input, but I keep reading how frustrated you are with the puppy. It's hard to *completely* mask such emotion when training dogs (to do anything), so no matter what the hiccup is on her end right now, your frustration likely isn't helping. Maybe step away from all training for a bit and just learn to enjoy each other? The BAER test isn't a bad idea. Something seems off.

 

Yes! This^^

 

A couple of questions

 

1 - what does she like to do?

2 - how can you do that with her?

 

For example - Kenzi loves to pull. LOVES to pull. Like a freight train. It has been very challenging to to train loose leash walking. Then one day I decided that if I couldn't beat her, I might as well join her. Harnessed her up and started biking with her. My 35# dog pulled me for a mile. And loved it. She loves getting in harness now and PULLING.

 

If your pup likes to lick and bite at things, can you smear a kong or something with baby food or PB and let her lick it? Just get down on the floor, be excited over it, then let her bite at/lick it for several seconds before putting it up.

 

After a few sessions of that, tie a string on the kong and drag it around on the floor. As soon as she goes after it, let her catch it and lick it.

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