Need some advice about pup

[Laurae]

Any dog, but especially a young puppy, needs more than training from it's human.

 

Really, you don't like doing anything at all with your pup except training? Not even just hanging out? Do you actually enjoy dogs or just doing agility?

[vaporflowers]

1. Like everyone else said, she's a babypup! I start training early with my guys, but it's at their own pace. If they just want to hang out and be a dog most of the time, then that's ok! At first I thought we were talking about an adolescent dog... at this age, I would put most of your focus onto socialization and exposures. Gradually introduce her to people, crowds, traffic, city environments, country environments, livestock, screaming children, unsteady surfaces, strange underfootings (metal grates, sewer lids, etc)... the key here being GRADUALLY. Make the big wide world a fun, relaxing place to be.

 

2. I want my dogs to CHOOSE to work with me. There are some things that are non-negotiable, as you mentioned, like the come command, but generally commands are things that I've chosen for them to do. So I want a dog who enjoys the work. Again, this is a babypup so I wouldn't stress too much about this now.

 

But what I might do is crate the puppy for 20-30 minutes with a chew toy right before dinner time. Then I'll collect their dinner or some treats and go out into a safe, enclosed area (whether it's the living room or the backyard, I'm not picky, as long as it's safe and there are no other dogs who might steal the attention). I have the puppy off-leash or on-leash but with it completely loose, I load my pockets with treats and a toy. I let the puppy sniff around for a while while I stand there totally silent. If and when they choose to acknowledge me, I offer them a tidbit. This isn't anything that's on command... they are OFFERING the behavior of attention. If after 10 minutes or so, they still haven't acknowledged me, I might use some verbal encouragement and reward any attention I get. If not, I'll just collect the puppy and bring him inside for his dinner.

 

I repeat this exercise in the same environment. Eventually, sniffing that same tree becomes less interesting than soliciting my attention and asking for work. I let the dog choose his own timetable to get interested in me. When I get some interest, we do short training sessions of "find heel" (meaning I start walking and reward the dog simply for being at my left side... no commands or signals given). I slowly start adding commands, using luring, molding, or shaping techniques... whatever the puppy feels like doing that day and is responding best to.

 

This is a very low-pressure way of training. Young puppies will vary in their attention spans, they shut down easily, and also go through a fear period. I want a dog who finds work intrinsically rewarding. I work in the same environment over and over again to get what I call "default behaviors"... the default behavior I reward for the most is attention of any sort, and attention in heel position. Once the dog enjoys the training sessions, we take it "on the road" and start working the same way in different environments, and GRADUALLY it gets easier and easier... over a time frame of months, not weeks.

 

Enjoy your puppy. I've learned to stop playing at my dogs and to find out what they enjoy on their own time, so I can start playing with them instead.

[juliepoudrier]

Really, you don't like doing anything at all with your pup except training? Not even just hanging out? Do you actually enjoy dogs or just doing agility?

I was wondering this too. Dogs are pretty astute at reading humans. I wonder if your pup realizes that you don't particularly care for her because she's not interested in training right now and that's only what you're interested in. That would be reason enough for her to tune you out.

 

J.

[Journey]

Geez, I thought we were talking about a 6 mo old or older. All this fuss over a 12 week old? Quit forcing issues and discover "who" your pup is.

[Urban Borders]

Nope, she's just a little tyke. I guess my older girl, and some other pups I've met, were just more in tune with people. Or something. She isn't; well, she is, but in a different way.

 

Guess I just started this thread to see if there were suggestions about how to work with her differently, because (while I wasn't smart enough to figure out what I should be doing) I knew what I was doing with her wasn't working.

 

We've tried some of the suggestions folks have had over the past couple days. Playing outside (she "learned" to run through a little tunnel today and get her toy; who knows if she learned it, but she sure had fun ), building food motivation, definitely focusing on default behaviors instead of commands (agh, I know this and yet I still make the mistake). We just sit in the bathroom, no distractors, and she gets kibble for offering eye contact. That's it. Sometimes I label it, sometimes not, but anything she does that I like gets a kibble. This evening, she didn't lose focus at all, and started barking at me when I wasn't fast enough with the kibble. Progress

 

As for not liking to cuddle or go for a walk on a leash, nope, I don't like that. That is just me. There are lots of things I like other than agility, but everything I do, even with my older dog, is a "game" that practices some kind of skill. That is what I enjoy doing with dogs. I really think Obi will learn to enjoy those interactions. They're always supposed to be fun; my older dog, if we go outside and I am not interacting with her in some way, gets incredibly upset. I was sad because Obi didn't seem to be like that, but I think she just didn't understand. By doing what folks have suggested (thank you), I think she is starting to understand, and to realize interaction is fun. I still am not certain she hears well, but we will get that checked. And once we both understand we're on a journey together, we'll be all set for whatever we find.

[Amelia]

Urban Borders,

I like the part about repeating to yourself that's she's only 3 months old. I've successfully trained a few, and put nothing on them beyond manners until they're about 7-8 months. I don't let them put their feet on me, I don't let them bark, etc. I've had dogs that were 13-14 months before I could train them. She's a tiny thing. Lighten up!

 

I have a feeling that your intention is scaring her and causing her to shut down. I recently raised a youngster that reacted by shutting down simply based on what I was feeling at the moment. If I became frustrated, or angry, even mildly or briefly, he intuitively sensed it and became scared. Likewise, if I got mad at another dog, he got scared. Because of him, I learned how to quickly recognize those feelings coming on and dispel them. I used to visualize them draining out through my feet into the ground.

 

Often I've found dogs that are highly intelligence are also highly sensitive.

Good luck with her.

[Root Beer]

As for not liking to cuddle or go for a walk on a leash, nope, I don't like that. That is just me.

 

I think it's good to recognize these kinds of things about oneself.

 

One of my dogs is actually like that (Speedy). He doesn't care to cuddle (never has), and he would much rather train or perform than go for a walk on a leash. He does enjoy ball games, and playing games with Dean, but he really would rather do something where he is practicing a skill. So, that's how he and I connect best. It is different from my relationship with my other dogs, but it is what works for us.

 

I also think that you can focus much of your interaction in this way, and keep it fun and casual at the same time. It's a learning process, but you can certainly get there. You might need to adjust your short term expectations, but these dogs change so much throughout the years - it will all come together, one way or another.

 

I look back now at the way I worked Dean when I first adopted him, and I do feel that I did too much and I kept it too structured and I was too focused on trying to give him a certain kind of foundation. While I am very happy with his training, I don't believe he enjoyed it as much as he would have if I had listened to him more and taken things more at his pace.

 

On the other hand, I've taken things at Tessa's pace instead of my own (which, at one point meant almost completely ignoring her most of the time!), and I am much happier with the results. She doesn't know as many behaviors (yet!), but there has just been something more fulfilling (I believe for both of us) about taking things at her pace.

[juliepoudrier]

my older dog, if we go outside and I am not interacting with her in some way, gets incredibly upset.

Are you saying that you can't be with your older dog without her expecting you to play some sort of game with her? What is she going to do when Obi starts interacting (playing games) with you? What will *you* do if they're both demanding your attention (games) at the same time? Or do you always interact with them separately. Are they allowed to interact with each other? Do they know how to play with each other? Just curious, as your way of raising a dog is completely unfamiliar to me.

 

J.

[Urban Borders]

Yep. Inside, she just sleeps, or sometimes chews on a bone. At dinner, she gets her kibble out of a food toy. Outside, she expects we are going to play frisbee, recall games, or agility. If not, she will get very upset (barking) or just lie flat on the ground (with a toy if available), and wait for upwards of half an hour (I think she would wait forever) with her eyes fixed on me, waiting for me to play. Outside means we must play. I think this was because, as a grad student with very long days, I have always tried to make the most of our limited outside time/daylight.

 

She is VERY jealous when I interact/play games with Obi. Displaces/shakes a toy/barks. I try to do it out of earshot, or put Mer in a downstay/give her a Kong to work on. When I tell her we are not going to play, she will play tug with Obi. When we go to the city (I rent a room in the city during the week for work, and come out to the boonies on the weekend), she plays tug with the 3 other BCs we have as housemates there and takes turns with them bringing the people in the room toys.

 

Mer basically ignores other dogs; her attention is only on people and toys. If other dogs solicit play, and there are no toys about, she will play very appropriately. She actually tried to get Obi to wrestle the day after she came home, but Obi was too nervous at that point, and Mer has not tried again. She ignores Obi, tolerates her when tugging or fetching, and is jealous otherwise. We have to work things out once they are older. I've never had two dogs before. I think they will always have alone time on a daily basis. But I would like to have them walk in the cemetery (where I take Mer for exercise in the city), and each have a toy to fetch or just do recalls as we walk.

 

EDIT: Hmm, reread that and had to laugh. I guess you could say my "way of raising a dog" was a matter of necessity and not design. There were mornings on clinics that I got up at 4, went in to see my patients, then drove (sped) home to play with Mer for the 25 minutes of daylight I got that day to play with her, then went back for 12 hours (my roommate let her out), then got home to fit in thirty minutes of recalls or heeling by the barn light, then showered, ate something and fed Mer, and collapsed to do it all over again. But every minute I got to spend with her was precious, the only thing that kept me sane, and gone in a puff of smoke if we got an emergency case. Even before clinics, I was commuting into the city everyday or doing chores at the farm we lived on. Guess that's why everything we do (both of us) is so intense. We just never have enough time. Even now, it's better, but we can't take classes with the agility instructor I adore anymore...still at work.

 

Are you saying that you can't be with your older dog without her expecting you to play some sort of game with her? What is she going to do when Obi starts interacting (playing games) with you? What will *you* do if they're both demanding your attention (games) at the same time? Or do you always interact with them separately. Are they allowed to interact with each other? Do they know how to play with each other? Just curious, as your way of raising a dog is completely unfamiliar to me.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Well, given the *intensity* of your interactions with your older dog, I do think you need to dial that way, way back with Obi.

 

You have a shy, quiet, retiring puppy. Those kinds do not thrive under intensity. They're more apt to shut down from it. If your lifestyle permits you to slow down and smell the roses now, I hope you will consider ways to adapt to a quieter pace with Obi.

 

If she acts like she doesn't know her name, maybe it's because every time she hears it, it's prelude or parcel to a wholelotofstuffgoingon-omg-we'retrainingcomeonlet'slearnstuff ....and that may be too much. She may not identify her name as her name, but as this noise that means she's about to become overwhelmed.

 

When puppies are stressed, they are very apt to start acting like they don't hear or notice you, and instead just go sniffing and nosing around. That's called avoidance behavior. It means they can't process everything that's going at them, so they're shutting down to something simple, like sniffing bugs.

 

I'll say again, if you want to be the center of her world, you need to become the center of her world, and being a dervish of activity and training and learning may not accomplish that, with her temperament. Slow down. Relax. Take time to just be with her, sometimes. If you don't like to snuggle or cuddle, fine, that's not a problem. But leash walks? Surely you teach your dogs to walk on leash. Surely you can find time for a laid-back stroll, once in a while. Surely you can sit on the back porch with her and do nothing but maybe roll a toy, now and then. Surely you can sit and drink a glass of ice tea while she chews a bone at your feet. Surely?

 

Take time. Give her time. And don't school on her every moment she's with you. If that's what you do, that may be why she seems to ignore you.

 

Best of luck.

 

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

P.S.

To work with a puppy, you MUST give them alone time with you. If your old dog is jealous, tough. Remove her from the area, put her in a crate in the house, whatever, but she should not be there barking and shaking toys and otherwise distracting Obi. If that's what's going on, that could be yet another reason Obi is not responding as you hoped. Your older dog could be adding to the stress and chaos. Obi is most certainly aware of Mer's jealousy of you, and that could further keep Obi from bonding with you.

 

Just my tuppence.

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

I think that's a very good point, Gloria. Our old Mac actually never did anything overt (at least not overt to us humans) but he could get a point across to the younger dogs with just a glance. You might have hit on something, and taking Obi for walks or having "private time" with her could be just what she needs. Here's hoping she at least gets the chance to see if that's an issue.

[Maralynn]

Just now reading through what Gloria wrote it hit me - licking can be a sign of stress in a dog. The licking you're seeing could be a "I'm stressed and don't understand what is expected of me" response. Dogs learn A LOT through just hanging out with people - it can be a huge confidence builder for a shy dog because they can figure out things at a pace they are comfortable with.

[PSmitty]

Well, given the *intensity* of your interactions with your older dog, I do think you need to dial that way, way back with Obi.

 

You have a shy, quiet, retiring puppy. Those kinds do not thrive under intensity. They're more apt to shut down from it. If your lifestyle permits you to slow down and smell the roses now, I hope you will consider ways to adapt to a quieter pace with Obi.

 

If she acts like she doesn't know her name, maybe it's because every time she hears it, it's prelude or parcel to a wholelotofstuffgoingon-omg-we'retrainingcomeonlet'slearnstuff ....and that may be too much. She may not identify her name as her name, but as this noise that means she's about to become overwhelmed.

 

When puppies are stressed, they are very apt to start acting like they don't hear or notice you, and instead just go sniffing and nosing around. That's called avoidance behavior. It means they can't process everything that's going at them, so they're shutting down to something simple, like sniffing bugs.

 

I'll say again, if you want to be the center of her world, you need to become the center of her world, and being a dervish of activity and training and learning may not accomplish that, with her temperament. Slow down. Relax. Take time to just be with her, sometimes. If you don't like to snuggle or cuddle, fine, that's not a problem. But leash walks? Surely you teach your dogs to walk on leash. Surely you can find time for a laid-back stroll, once in a while. Surely you can sit on the back porch with her and do nothing but maybe roll a toy, now and then. Surely you can sit and drink a glass of ice tea while she chews a bone at your feet. Surely?

 

Take time. Give her time. And don't school on her every moment she's with you. If that's what you do, that may be why she seems to ignore you.

 

Best of luck.

 

~ Gloria

 

*claps* Great post, Gloria. Good, good stuff.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I've owned two “mental” sheepdogs. One was exquisitely sound shy, ran insanely wide and had inept dog/dog manners. The second had numerous phobias (you had to open the door "correctly" before she would go out), inept dog/dog manners, and would nip when something seemed “odd” to her.

 

I bought both from extremely competitive, successful, trainers. Both trainers were intelligent people who never raised a hand to their dogs. Both trainers drilled and drilled and approved only the dog who won trials. The way to their approval was narrow and straight.

 

Such trainers exist in every human competition. These are HUMAN competitions. While dogs can come to enjoy them, no dog ever entered a sheepdog trial or an agility competition or a rally match or . . .or . . .

 

I am only mildly competitive which means that I don't win that many sheepdog trials, not that I am morally superior/more sensitive/ BETTER than those sheepdoggers for whom winning trials is the be-all/end-all. (Indeed, I pay for their clinics, not vice-versa).

 

And it is the top handler’s dog/sheep insights that pass into our common culture. We all learn from her/him.

 

Like the original poster, they have a right to be who they are.

 

But:

 

I believe, as Barbara Ray likes to say, "It has to be fun for the dog."

 

I believe, as Geoff Billingham said, "Training a sheepdog without real work makes them hot."

 

Like the original poster, the dog has a right to be who he is.

 

One of the dopier mistakes Dr Skinner and his acolytes made/make is tabula rasa ;the notion that every dog is a blank tablet and that our manipulation of its experience can reform the dog’s basic character. We CAN modify it: we can ease the fears of a shy dog and redirect the energies of an aggressive one. We can make a dog who's uninterested in food, somewhat interested; just as some Zen monks learn to value money and power.

 

But we cannot change the dog’s character. The too-wide runner will always run too wide and you never want to force a sound-shy dog into a boiler room.

 

Top sheepdoggers know this – that’s why most are always looking for the dog that will suit them in its stage of life and theirs.

 

Some sheepdogs can be trained by drill, drill drill. Most of these are hard, resilient, and perhaps a little stupid. The timid, soft, quick-learner/easily-bored dog that might suit a commercial sheepman or a novice handler can’t take extreme training/trialing/traveling pressure. (It’s worth noting that most British trial dogs live on working farms where they do relaxing chores during the week. And they don’t travel nearly as far from home as our dogs do.)

 

It is unfortunate that agility/obedience/rally/flyball are “pure” sports which serve sophisicated dog needs of pet owners, because pet ownership is sentimental, sometimes cruelly so.

 

Sheepdoggers whose primary desire is winning trials avoid dogs that won’t suit them and sell the ones that fail to suit. For most pet owners, selling a dog is morally repugnant. I believe that keeping a dog that doesn’t satisfy your needs (or the dog’s needs) is cruel.

 

There are less drastic steps: one can persist and hope for the best, one can change one’s methods and, to a small degree, one can change onesself. Like every dog, every human has a right to be who they are.

 

One morning with Ethel Conrad I was training working Mack, an untalented. fearful three year old. I bellowed until Ethel lost patience, “If you don’t like that damn dog why don’t you give him to someone who might?”

 

I did and Mack was happier ever after.

 

 

Donald McCaig.

[Sue R]

Boy, there has been an awful lot of good commentary in this topic. I think it might be one to save for future reference for a lot of people.

[Root Beer]

Urban Borders - are you familiar with the Control Unleashed program? I know I recommend this often, but the more I read your posts, the more it occurs to me that you and your dogs would both benefit from the program, and I think you would enjoy the heck out of it.

 

CU would give you some fantastic foundation exercises for Obi that are enjoyable for both dog and handler, would give Obi the chance to learn at her pace, while providing you with the kind of structure that you like. This foundation is designed both to provide a pre-foundation foundation for sports, and to build a good relationship between dog and handler.

 

CU would also be great for Mer, to help her learn to keep her jealousy in check, and to help her learn what she should do while you are working with Obi.

 

If you are interested, I strongly recommend that you get the puppy book, not the original. (Or, at least start with the puppy book and, if you get into it, read the original later). The info in the puppy book is equally applicable to Mer, as well as Obi. And CU exercises would fit in nicely with your work schedule.

 

Just some food for thought, but I think it would really help with a lot of the things that you are describing.

[Root Beer]

Like the original poster, the dog has a right to be who he is.

 

True.

 

One of the biggest mistakes that I see people make in the classes and events around me is a failure to look to the dog for input throughout the training process, and even within performance itself.

 

This is not always easy to do, and it is a skill that must be learned.

 

At the same time, the handler is who he or she is. While methods and approaches can be tweaked, and learning can and should be happening along the way, there are qualities at the heart of the handler that do not change (just as there are often qualities at the heart of an individual dog that do not change).

 

Recently I overheard someone making a comment to my Agility instructor regarding a dog who was presenting quite a challenge for the handler on course. You hear that a lot, actually. "Too bad that handler had that dog as his/her first dog" or "Too bad that handler doesn't do well with a fast dog" yadda yadda yadda. I actually didn't hear the entire comment, but it was something to the effect of "shame about the handler".

 

I was surprised, and deeply impressed, by my instructor's response. Instead of feeding into that "shame about the handler" mentality, she said, "That may be true, but she is his handler, and he needs to learn to run with the handler that he has."

 

That, of course, will require both the dog learning some skills, and the handler learning some skills, and a great deal of patience on the part of dog, handler, and instructor. But what I loved about that response was that the door was left open for learning to happen, and there was no implication that either the dog, or the handler, were hopelessly inadequate.

 

I don't mean to imply that there are times when there is simply a bad match between dog and handler. That happens. We returned a dog to the shelter one time, after giving it our best go, because I simply couldn't stand him. He was some sort of terrier mix - definitely not my kind of dog. I mistakenly thought that my husband liked him, and wanted him, and it turned out to be a difficult situation. We returned him, and several weeks later, we got Speedy. Definitely a much better match, in spite of the challenges that we would face along the way.

 

But there are also times when sticking with it, figuring out how to make it work for both dog and handler, is the way to go. And I have found that those dogs teach me the most.

 

When I read Urban Border's posts, I perceive a great deal of potential for learning and growth on the part of both dog and handler. Learning and growth that allow both of them to be, at heart, who each of them are.

[juliepoudrier]

I was surprised, and deeply impressed, by my instructor's response. Instead of feeding into that "shame about the handler" mentality, she said, "That may be true, but she is his handler, and he needs to learn to run with the handler that he has."

Although I can understand this sentiment on some level, I think it's important to remember that in these endeavors the dog is not choosing any of it. That's why the culture of "blame the handler" likely arose in the first place. Esepcially in sports that don't have a genetic component (that is, where the dog has to learn the rules from scratch <--not talking about the physical ability to do the tasks, but rather learning that the tasks themselves should be done), I think the human does need to always keep in mind that just because the human finds the activity enjoyable, rewarding, _fill in the blank_ doesn't mean the dog does. Yes, dogs can be taught to find enjoyment, and of course there are dogs who are naturals at games and really want to interact with their humans that way.

 

But, I think it's a little sad to believe that the dog just needs to play the hand(ler) it's dealt. Some dogs just don't like certain things, don't learn the way other dogs do, and don't interact with humans the way we think they should. Is that really the dog's fault? Should the dog really have to just deal with it? Or should the human (the one with the big brain, who gets to make the choices) be held to a different standard--one that takes the dog's aptitudes and, yes, overall happiness into account?

 

Note that I am not saying all bad things should be blamed on the handler, but I do think the handler should be able to recognize when his/her own desires don't mesh with the temperament of a particular dog. Once that recognition is made, the handler can decide to push ahead anyway, realizing that it likely isn't going to result in a perfect partnership or the handler can adjust his/her expectations, accept the dog for what it is, and work within that framework.

 

In that sense, it really does all rest with the handler, IMO.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Well said, Julie, as always.

[Root Beer]

Although I can understand this sentiment on some level, I think it's important to remember that in these endeavors the dog is not choosing any of it. That's why the culture of "blame the handler" likely arose in the first place.

 

Actually, "blame the handler" arose, I believe, as a response to people who did blame certain aspects of poor performance on the dog that rightly do belong on the handler.

 

It's an extreme that answers another extreme "it's all the handler" vs. "it's all the dog".

 

But in reality, dog and handler are a team, and there are some aspects of poor performance that do come from handler choice, or lack of handler ability, or handler error, and there actually are other aspects of poor performance that actually do come from dog choice, lack of dog ability, or dog error.

 

Either extreme is problematic. Blame the dog results in the dog being punished for things that the dog has no control over. That is certainly not a good thing, and I don't advocate "blame the dog".

 

But blame the handler often results in the handler blaming his or herself for things that he or she really has no control over. And I would maintain that, in spite of the fact that the handler is choosing to participate, that is not a good thing either.

 

I believe that blame is useless and that honest assessment of issues as simple facts (whether they lie with the dog or the handler) allow the handler to be proactive and make better choices.

 

Esepcially in sports that don't have a genetic component (that is, where the dog has to learn the rules from scratch <--not talking about the physical ability to do the tasks, but rather learning that the tasks themselves should be done), I think the human does need to always keep in mind that just because the human finds the activity enjoyable, rewarding, _fill in the blank_ doesn't mean the dog does.

 

That is true, and I would be the first to say that if a dog absolutely hates a particular activity, after giving the dog a fair chance to really understand what it is all about, then often the best thing to do is to find something else to do that the dog enjoys more.

 

I've done this myself on many occasions. It is how I got into Agility in the first place because Agility was the only sport/training activity that Maddie didn't hate!!

 

On the other hand, an initial dislike doesn't necessarily mean that the dog absolutely hates a particular game. Tessa had a serious fear of going into the tunnel, and it took about 3 sessions of baiting the short barrel with treats before she would go all the way through it (that is, three 8 week sessions, not 3 training sessions!!). Now that she understands it, and trusts it, she loves the tunnel - sometimes even leaving me on course to fly through it! Had I given up on her too soon, she would have missed out on something that she actually does enjoy.

 

There is a balance, in sports training, between sticking with something so the dog can have a fair chance to see if it really is something that he or she does not like - once the task is truly understood - and quitting because something that the dog has had a fair chance to understand and it is not something the dog enjoys.

 

In Obi's case, at only 3 months old, she has not had a fair chance to know whether she enjoys the kind of training the Urban Borders hopes to do with her because she has not had a fair chance to understand it yet.

 

It sounds like Urban Borders does need to ease up on some things, and let the puppy mature, and break training down into smaller, and more laid back components.

 

But it is way too soon to say that Obi will never come to enjoy more intensive and structured training. She may not, but she may. She really hasn't had the chance yet to know one way or the other.

 

But, I think it's a little sad to believe that the dog just needs to play the hand(ler) it's dealt.

 

It would be if the dog in question truly disliked the activity after having a fair chance to know what it is all about.

 

In the example that I cited above the dog does enjoy Agility. He sometimes gets frustrated because he has trouble, at times, reading his handler's handling, so often (at this point) their runs fall apart. However, the dog does enjoy the activity.

 

And do you know what? There are two things that can (and will) happen for this team, as they progress together. The handler will learn to handle better. And the dog will learn to read the handler's body language better. Nobody is "at fault" here. What is needed is experience and learning, not blame.

 

This dog is not miserably playing this game, suffering because he really hates it. He clearly enjoys the heck out of it. And he's going to enjoy it even more as the team learns and grows together.

 

It's a both/and not an either/or. And this dog will play the game with this handler. The reality is that this is the handler that he has been "dealt". So, yes, his task is to learn to run well with her. And he can do that, and have fun at the same time, playing this game that they both enjoy.

 

Some dogs just don't like certain things, don't learn the way other dogs do, and don't interact with humans the way we think they should. Is that really the dog's fault?

 

I would say it's nobody's "fault".

 

It is what it is.

 

Should the dog really have to just deal with it? Or should the human (the one with the big brain, who gets to make the choices) be held to a different standard--one that takes the dog's aptitudes and, yes, overall happiness into account?

 

Of course the human should take the dog's overall happiness into account.

 

But one also doesn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the process.

 

Example: Dean stresses at Agility trials.

 

Instead of throwing up my hands and saying "he hates Agility", I worked with him and found what was needed to help him enjoy it. He enjoys it if I run him with a tug toy.

 

So, he goes to Agility class every week. He loves it so much he drags me into the building to play (and I let him because I fostered that desire, and he would walk on a loose leash if I asked him to).

 

So, we both get what we want. I get to play a game that I enjoy with him in a way that he can enjoy it. I trial with him only rarely in settings where he doesn't stress (outdoors, near a pond).

 

And I trial with Tessa, who loves to trial.

 

Sometimes the answer isn't a black and white "play" or "don't play". Often it takes working with the dog to find what is going to work for both dog and handler.

 

And while there are times when the best thing is to give up a particular activity, there are others when it can actually work for both.

 

Aa perfect partnership or the handler can adjust his/her expectations, accept the dog for what it is, and work within that framework.

 

In that sense, it really does all rest with the handler, IMO.

 

And actually, I would say that accepting the dog for what he or she is and working within that framework rests as much with the dog as it does with the handler.

[Maralynn]

In Obi's case, at only 3 months old, she has not had a fair chance to know whether she enjoys the kind of training the Urban Borders hopes to do with her because she has not had a fair chance to understand it yet.

 

---

 

But it is way too soon to say that Obi will never come to enjoy more intensive and structured training. She may not, but she may. She really hasn't had the chance yet to know one way or the other.

 

Umm, nobody ever said that. They said (And I paraphrase here) let the puppy be a puppy, learn to enjoy some things your puppy enjoys, ease up on your training/expectations of your baby puppy, realize that your dog has a personality that may be different than your other dog.

 

One poster suggested that perhaps they might not be a good fit for each other. But that was it. Everyone else pretty much said to take a deep breath, relax a bit and enjoy the pup.

[emilyfalk]

Urban Borders,

 

I, too, had a challenging border collie as a vet student (sidenote: were you behind me at Penn?), and while my life was just as hectic as you describe, Ella didn't turn out to be so demanding for constant training/interaction/what-have-you as you describe with Mer. Sure we trained seriously in agility and flyball (and she was super talented), but first and foremost she was a "dog." Just a dog, and I enjoyed her for that. More accurately, I adored her for that. She easily could've become obsessive with any number of things, but I didn't allow it. I can't imagine letting one of my dogs stare at me for 30 minutes expecting something of me. That's what "go lie down" is for.

 

These stories are where the stereotype of over-the-top agility dogs (or crazy pet dogs) come from. Is it possible for you to relax and take all this pressure off your puppy? That's what sheepdog trainers do: try the pup say, once a month until it shows that it is *ready* for training, rather than forcing it on them from too early on. Maybe your pup will have a different attitude after a mental break and with the benefit of maturity. And maybe you will, too.

[juliepoudrier]

I am not going to get into the time sink that is point-by-point dissection of someone else's posts (and the verbal gymnastics that go with that), so I am going to address just one thing and then let it go. UrbanBorders can take my point(s) or not.

 

In Obi's case, at only 3 months old, she has not had a fair chance to know whether she enjoys the kind of training the Urban Borders hopes to do with her because she has not had a fair chance to understand it yet.

 

<snip>But it is way too soon to say that Obi will never come to enjoy more intensive and structured training. She may not, but she may. She really hasn't had the chance yet to know one way or the other.

 

Exactly. A number of us have said that this is a baby and that her owner appears to be putting way too much pressure and has expectations that are way too high for the pup she chose. The point is that if the human doesn't recognize that s/he is overdoing it with an individual dog, then s/he may never get to the point where s/he can figure out if the pup likes an activity because the pup will have given up on the human. I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that, but I have seen plenty of dogs who have been shut down by overzealous or inappropriate training, and in those cases, the human is to blame (for trying to force the dog into the human's training mold as opposed to changing the method to match the needs of the dog).

 

UB has a choice now, she can keep pushing and being disappointed and finding fault with her puppy (which surely isn't a recipe for a happy partnership), or she can decide that Obi is not Mer and isn't going to be Mer, and then adjust her expectations, back off, and let the pup tell her when she's ready to learn and how she best learns. Doing so may also mean that UB has to come to a decision about interacting with her dogs outside of training as well. This is a funamental change in behavior on her part, but it may be what this particular pup needs.

 

If sports are an activity that is meant to encourage partnersip between human and dog, then I personally think it's incumbent upon the human to figure out how to make the activity enjoyable for the dog. Period. Right now, from UB's description Obi is saying loud and clear that something's not right.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Julie, I don't think we disagree as much as you might think that we do. My initial comment above was in response to something that another poster had said, not to something that you had said. (See Post #68 for original context)

 

I also suggested some changes in approach with Obi - try to build food motivation outside of the context of training (thereby removing any stress that the current approach to training is most likely causing), try more capturing and give Obi the chance to offer behavior for reinforcement, observe Obi to see what she finds reinforcing and build her drive for that outside of the context of training, check out the CU program which is based largely on removing pressure from the dog, let Obi mature and be a puppy, etc.

 

At the same time, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that Urban Borders does have some particular goals for her puppy, and is looking to find ways to work toward those goals in a way that will work for Obi. (Again, that is in response to something that another poster - not you - said).

 

Building a performance partnership is a balance of give and take, and it often requires adjustments in goals and expectations.

 

I applaud Urban Borders for putting as much thought into this as she is. I believe that she and Obi will find the way to an excellent working partnership.