Injury To Stock

[terrecar]

I was going through posts on a herding forum and read something about a lamb having run into the side of a pen and broken its neck. I think the dog working it was a PWC, though I don't remember for sure. The lamb was slaughtered right there.

 

I've done an Earth Dog trial and Dachshund Field Trial or two (though the 'quarry' is caged in the former), so I do understand that we aren't playing with stuffed toys here. However, I would feel horrible if a dog I was running caused injury to an animal (even though I would expect to compensate the stock owner). This is my primary concern with "hobby" herding (though admittedly it is from the perspective of someone with zero knowledge and likely a number of misconceptions) and I mean this for myself, before anyone gets their dander up. I have to be honest and say I would be inclined to give it up if my dog caused a serious injury to stock.

 

This brings me to my question: How frequent are injuries to stock (requiring slaughter) in the trialing community? Is this more of a problem with AKC herding due to the lack of real stockmanship?

 

Also, for first introductions, what do you look for to decide if the dog might be too rough with stock (aside from the obvious)?

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

The obvious is usually all that's required.

 

Deaths don't happen all that often, really. In 12 years, I think I've seen only three deaths between trialing and training. In one case, the property had split rail fencing in places and the sheep knew they could pass under it. When the owner added woven wire, for some period of time the sheep still thought they could go under, and I saw one try to take off (dog slow, and NOT chasing) and the sheep broke its neck when it hit the wire fence, which it clearly wasn't expecting. The oher case was when I was working a young dog and a sheep bolted. We were well away from the fences, and I stopped my dog and called him off but the sheep kept running, plowed into the fence and broke her neck. In that case, she was no longer paying attention to what was going on around her--she was simply in run away mode, and the bulk of the flock was on the other side of that fence.

 

The other two [ETA: one of the two I did not describe--similar scenario but the sheep ended up with a broken leg] occasions were at trials and both occurred with sheep on their home field where a single broke off and took off for the gate that accessed their regular night pasture. I didn't see the actual hitting of the gate in that case, but the sheep broke its neck. <--This was with a fully trained dog at an open trial, so such things aren't limited to beginner dogs.

 

I think sometimes lack of stockmanship is indeed to blame (the human not recognizing a situation going south rapidly), but you also must remember that sheep are prey animals, and sometimes they panic, and when they panic, they stop thinking and this is usually when bad things happen. Like in the examples I gave above. In neither case was the dog chasing, but the sheep simply panicked and ran blindly. (And in the one case, the sheep was in the habit of ducking under the wood fence and the wire fence hadn't been there long enough for the sheep to remember that it could no longer sneak through--a sort of perfect storm, if you will.)

 

Much of this can be avoided, at least when starting a youngster, by using well broke sheep that are used to young inexperienced dogs and so aren't likely to panic and do something stupid and by the instructor making sure the situation is controlled. But they are individuals with minds of their own, and even the calmest animal can have a panic moment.

 

Unnecessary roughness is probably a much more common occurrence, and that really does stem from whether the stock owner sees the stock as individuals worthy of his/her concern or only as a means of making money (and you can guess which sort of person has stock that are most likely allowed to be abused by dogs).

 

JMO.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I hit the wrong button and edited instead of quoting. But essentially, what I think I said was that I have seen two sheep killed by running into the fence. One was chased to the set-out by an out-of-control novice-class dog and one just decided she'd had enough and booked it for the exhaust area, and both hit the fence and broke their necks, dying instantly. A sheep in full flight mode is an animal on a mission, and I don't think there's any thought process going on other than to run as fast as it can to escape.

 

And, in my opinion, that any problem lies in attitude - that of those who consider sheep to be "dog toys" (hobby folks who don't consider the stock and its well-being) and those who just consider the stock to be expendable tools in their preparation for their goals rather than considering the welfare of the stock as stockmen and stockwomen should, and the training of the dogs to be to provide a tool to facilitate the welfare of the stock.

 

I should have gone to sleep hours ago...

 

PS - Edited when I meant to do a reply. I am not going to stay up and fix it any better than this. I really should have gone to sleep hours ago.

[Liz P]

The one and only time I have seen an injury ultimately result in death was when a very obnoxious wether, who liked to rush gates, decided he was going to go through the gate even though he was not wanted. The dog did not cause the accident and was moving the sheep in a very appropriate manner. We pushed this particular sheep away many times, but he wouldn't take no for an answer. The idiot jumped through the air over the other sheep and slammed into the gate. In the process, he broke the gate and a post and blinded himself. He went to the butcher, but he was destined for that fate soon anyway.

[Ooky]

I was going through posts on a herding forum and read something about a lamb having run into the side of a pen and broken its neck. I think the dog working it was a PWC, though I don't remember for sure. The lamb was slaughtered right there.

 

 

 

The oher case was when I was working a young dog and a sheep bolted. We were well away from the fences, and I stopped my dog and called him off but the sheep kept running, plowed into the fence and broke her neck. In that case, she was no longer paying attention to what was going on around her--she was simply in run away mode, and the bulk of the flock was on the other side of that fence.

 

Terrecar, I've seen that exact thing you describe, and it basically occurred like Julie is saying in her second example. The handler was very experienced open cattle trialer, and it was a young dog so enthusiastic but definitely had training on it already. The ewe ran into a gate and it sounded like a metal gong. Instant death, broken neck. I helped butcher the ewe right there.

 

It is a good reminder these are not toys for fun. YOU can also be hurt by sheep, as could your dog. It is not something for play to be sure and it's good you've got your head right about that from the beginning. I always try to listen to others who know more and are wiser about stock, I watch them for signs of stress, distress, thirst, etc, and I am probably too freaky with my dog because sometimes he has not enough oomph - I can be overcareful even. As I'm in the early early learning phases, I'd rather err on that side personally. Given what I saw. It took less than 3 seconds.

[TEC]

 

...are sheep seen as "dog toys" (hobby folks who don't consider the stock and its well-being) or nothing more than expendable tools (which I think can sadly be the case for anyone who doesn't care). Stockmen and stockwomen care about their stock. At least they certainly should! (emphasis added)

 

I'm tired...

 

Well said. You were tired and no doubt did not mean to say that hobby folks, in general, are not good stockmen. There's a learning curve toward an overall goal of dog/handler teams that efficiently do their jobs in stockman-like ways. Bad things happen from time to time, yet IMO the people I know, experienced and beginners, work hard to care for stock, whether owned or borrowed/rented. Dogs and handlers react to their charges, and appropriately adjust their work for individual animals and particular groups/circumstances, in a way that mechanical herding devices and equipment are incapable. There's a beauty to working stock with dogs, and it's not always directed back to pure recreation for handler him/herself, or simply getting a task accomplished. Little like creating a painting, craft item, writing a novel, etc. -- Kind regards, TEC

[terrecar]

I would actually feel a bit better if the animal were killed instantly. I don't want to be a hypocrite about it. I do eat meat. I was watching when Eight Belles had to be euthanized on the track, and I put a wager on Rachel Alexandra when she won the Preakness. I also breed Betta Splenden and cull liberally (but would never fight them). But I also admit to being more than a little uncomfortable with the problem of suffering (maybe I'll come to terms with that when I grow up). It is unlikely that I would become much of a trialer (and that's an understatement), but I can't say it doesn't intrigue me to know what it feels like to work with a good dog doing what it was bred for.

 

The answers have been insightful. Sue, you make perfect sense to me. I speak fluent tired!

 

I can already see where my inexperience with stock has led to some misconceptions, mostly about the nature of prey behavior. I have been around goats a bit, but I've been exposed to exactly three sheep in my life, none of which were part of a flock. So for example, it never occured to me that the flight response would take on a life of its own. I appreciate the responses.

[Sue R]

I said,

 

...are sheep seen as "dog toys" (hobby folks who don't consider the stock and its well-being)...(my words and my emphasis)

 

I did not say,

 

...are sheep seen as "dog toys" (hobby folks don't consider the stock and its well-being)...(my words, my alteration, and my emphasis)

 

So please don't read something into what I wrote that I did not write. If I was unclear, please accept my apologies.

 

I should have gone to sleep hours ago...

[Mark Billadeau]

In my opinion, training dogs to work livestock is stressful and can be dangerous for the livestock. I accept this and manage the stress and risk (to the best of my ability) knowing that a fully trained dog will allow me to manage the livestock in a less stressful and safer manor than without a fully trained dog. I accept this as long as I see progress/improvement in the dog. When the dog continues to stress the livestock and does not show progress I no longer accept the added stress on the livestock.

 

I have often seen differences in attitude towards livestock (how they are viewed and how they are treated) between those who own them and those who do not. This is not a hard and fast rule, but a common difference I have seen. When I have seen handlers (and this happened to me) have a change in attitude towards the livestock I have seen significant improvement in their handling of their dogs, and in their dog's ability to handle livestock. I have also seen a change in how soon a handler will leave the post during a bad run to rectify the dog's treatment of the livestock and that handler's concern about the livestock following their dog's treatment.

 

 

 

 

"Herding" is NOT about the dogs, it is about the livestock.

[Smalahundur]

"Herding" is NOT about the dogs, it is about the livestock.

And that says it all really.

[Cynthia P]

I have had two sheep die, both when butchered had a heart problem. (I took them and butchered them for the dogs). One of my friends had her young dog run a sheep into the fence and it broke something. Couldn't stand for 7 days and was then butchered.

 

At trials the only injuries we've ever had have been small grip injuries except for one dorset ewe with an udder that is always large. She was bitten on the udder and it was rendered useless. We don't run any of our sheep that have largish udders.

 

I have said about some people that if they liked stock more and learned about them they would be much better handlers.

 

Cynthia

[juliepoudrier]

I have said about some people that if they liked stock more and learned about them they would be much better handlers.

This is why when I have given lessons in the past, I have always made sure to teach about the stock, even those things that don't directly relate to dogs working them. I think if people see them as something more than a training tool, they will develop more empathy, not to mention the better handler aspect.

 

J.

[Pearse]

This is why when I have given lessons in the past, I have always made sure to teach about the stock, even those things that don't directly relate to dogs working them. I think if people see them as something more than a training tool, they will develop more empathy, not to mention the better handler aspect.

 

J.

 

It's one of the reasons I would encourage trial hosts to get novice handlers helping in the pens at set out. It often seems like it's more work than either doing it yourself or hiring some skilled hands to do it but the more time some of the novice (hobby herders) spend around sheep, they more they come to appreciate them as living beings and the more considerate of their welfare they become. You need someone up there to coach and make sure that things keep moving along but the extra effort pays off in keeping people in the game and teaching some stockman ship. That has been my own experience from city boy --> trialler --> sheep owner.

 

Pearse

[Sue R]

And, in addition, you also learn how stock react to pressure when you are "the dog". Most people view stock (and dogs) as furry people when they are nothing but - they are individuals with characteristics of their species. There is nothing like hands-on working with them (without a dog) to teach a person a bit about how they respond to pressure, movement, sound, herdmates.

[terrecar]

And, in addition, you also learn how stock react to pressure when you are "the dog". Most people view stock (and dogs) as furry people when they are nothing but - they are individuals with characteristics of their species. There is nothing like hands-on working with them (without a dog) to teach a person a bit about how they respond to pressure, movement, sound, herdmates.

 

 

This is a really great idea. I think I would want to go this route; spend some time helping with farm chores to get exposure to stock. I actually did this with my landlord's horses so they could vacation and (oddly) found that I like tending to them way more than I like riding them.

[juliepoudrier]

And, in addition, you also learn how stock react to pressure when you are "the dog". Most people view stock (and dogs) as furry people when they are nothing but - they are individuals with characteristics of their species. There is nothing like hands-on working with them (without a dog) to teach a person a bit about how they respond to pressure, movement, sound, herdmates.

I do this too in lessons. The nice thing about having a mixed flock was I could vary the type (and therefore behavior tendencies) of sheep used and so give the student a real eye opener about how all sheep aren't the same--some more reactive, some more docile. Some that you practically have shove with your own body vs. those that leave the country at the sight of you (of course, I'd use the round pen so the human wouldn't have to run themselves to death), or those that will turn at your slightest movement to the side that they catch in their peripheral vision vs. those who reguire you to come all the way around and practically get in their faces before they'll turn--and everything in between. I'd even get students to try to gate sort as the dog, so they could see where the pressure needed to be to hold a particular sheep back or let another go.

 

Not only does such training make a person better at reading stock, it also gives a better understanding of where their dog needs to be and why in order to get a particular task accomplished. (For example, to get the sheep to go in a straight line, most inexperienced people think the dog needs to be directly behind the sheep. But set the human the task of doing that and they soon figure out that depending on the sheep themselves, the dynamics within the flock, and any draws, where they need to be might not be where they would have thought. If you have a strong leader and a cohesive flock, you will do better off to the side where you can catch the leader's eye and control *her,* knowing that her flockmates will follow.)

 

Terrecar,

When you find someone to give you lessons, ask them to let you work the sheep without a dog. Hopefully they'll be able to provide you with a mixed bag, but if not, you'll still gain a lot by it. And of course helping with various management tasks is another great way to really learn about the nature of sheep.

 

J.

[Smalahundur]

And, in addition, you also learn how stock react to pressure when you are "the dog".

Hehe, I have been "the dog" for years before I got into border collies.

And it is a very good point, it helps a lot.

For me It is a slightly exotic topic as here there are hardly any hobby herders, its all sheep farmers, and they train their dogs on their own sheep. So they know the stock and are careful with it.

[Jeri Jessee]

Well I guess by definition I'm a "hobby herder"...My family no longer owns cattle and I now live in the suburbs. But I do have a working bred young dog that I want to learn to trial so the two of us are taking lessons and I'm very sincere in this..not just something else to do.. And maybe some day I'll have that ranch that I'm dreaming of. But in the meantime I can tell you that the folks that I train with are all very respectful of the livestock. They get switched out frequently...rested in between dogs...worked for very short periods of time...and none of the dogs are allowed to "harrass" them. As a novice, I'm probably over sensitive about it. My dog has gripped and I, too, have stepped on a goat or two and knocked them down...thankfully no harm was done. Having said that, sheep and goats are not the brightest animals in the world...sometimes they just bolt and take off...and they don't always care who or what they run over...people included...so accidents do happen. I think we all do the best we can.

 

And I guess I take exception a bit to the hobby herder label although I know what is generally meant...but having grown up with horses and cattle, I've seen a lot of ranchers who thought of their stock as property...and they took care of them because the alternative was costly but it wasn't necessarily because they had warm fuzzies for them...so I don't think that kind of thing is always limited to the hobby herders.

[terrecar]

And I guess I take exception a bit to the hobby herder label although I know what is generally meant...but having grown up with horses and cattle, I've seen a lot of ranchers who thought of their stock as property...and they took care of them because the alternative was costly but it wasn't necessarily because they had warm fuzzies for them...so I don't think that kind of thing is always limited to the hobby herders.

 

 

Oh dear, I apologize if that term "hobby herder" has negative connotations. You have to remember, I am very new to all of this, so I only know the term "hobby herder" in its most innocuous sense, as a way to distinguish them from farmers/ranchers. Then, when I went on to give the reasons I have concerns about it for my own potential involvement, I wanted to hear from experienced stockfolk who might give me an idea how prevalent injuries are and in what context they occur, and how to minimize the risk. I simply do not want to cause unnecessary harm or suffering, and I genuinely like animals (although I do eat meat). I in no way meant to disparage...well... hobby herders. I would be joining their ranks.

[Jeri Jessee]

Oh dear, I apologize if that term "hobby herder" has negative connotations. You have to remember, I am very new to all of this, so I only know the term "hobby herder" in its most innocuous sense, as a way to distinguish them from farmers/ranchers. Then, when I went on to give the reasons I have concerns about it for my own potential involvement, I wanted to hear from experienced stockfolk who might give me an idea how prevalent injuries are and in what context they occur, and how to minimize the risk. I simply do not want to cause unnecessary harm or suffering, and I genuinely like animals (although I do eat meat). I in no way meant to disparage...well... hobby herders. I would be joining their ranks.

 

No offense taken on my part and really I wasn't directing that to you specifically...just talking out loud...I see that phrase on here all the time...and there is truth to it...I don't make a living with livestocks or dogs either for that matter...but I do enjoy it and am sincere in learning...

[TEC]

I was going through posts on a herding forum and read something about a lamb having run into the side of a pen and broken its neck...

 

...This brings me to my question: How frequent are injuries to stock (requiring slaughter) in the trialing community? Is this more of a problem with AKC herding due to the lack of real stockmanship?

 

Also, for first introductions, what do you look for to decide if the dog might be too rough with stock (aside from the obvious)?

 

 

It may have already been mentioned above that sheep/lambs who get separated from the bunch will sometimes run crazily, and right into a fence, over one, or through it. They are flocking animals, so a sheep that gets separated isn't thinking clearly. That explanation doesn't make it any more pleasant for the separated sheep who hits a fence, but gives handler something to try to avoid. I know nothing about the particular incident that started this discussion, but suggest the above as a possible/guessed scenario. Serious injury happens very infrequently, and good trainers will advise how to avoid them.

 

Some young dogs, the first couple times in a pen, they will decide to single-off just one sheep in the packet, which can lead to collisions with the fence. One suggestion that I have seen/heard from a couple experienced trainers, is to construct a small round-pen in which dog and sheep can't build-up a lot of velocity, and therefore forces are smaller should collision occur. The shape keeps stock out of confined corners. The fencing is constructed of field wire or cattle panels, with a minimum of posts, such that in event stock hit the enclosure, fencing has a certain give or cushioning effect, and serious injury should not ensue.

 

One of my own training videos which I recently viewed may be instructive. Wonderful tool and recommend it. Had dog in a down few feet in front. Video later disclosed seven sheep were bunched about 25 yds from the dog, their heads down facing away from dog's position and grazing. One ewe, grouped tightly with others, was facing Josie and me. May not have noticed the one unruly ewe at the time, and if I had seen her, did not realize the significance. So, gave dog a flanking command to simply gather them. The very moment my dog rose to her feet in the unfenced field, Ms. Bolter the ewe, turned and sprinted directly away from us. The ewe was fast and had a 25 yd head start. To her credit, Josie ignored other sheep (who stayed right where they were, and seemed a little surprised by the whole affair) caught-up to her, flanking to Ms. Bolter's front, and convinced her to return to others. Didn't see a grip. There were no fences. In hindsight, unbeknownst to me at the time, Ms. Bolter and Josie must have been having a bit of a conversation with their eyes, before I gave the initial flanking command, and that may have lead to the little drama.

 

My Lesson learned: Try to be certain packet is cohesive before sending dog for gather. No guarantee that any pre-planned maneuver will work. Stock always have an unpredictability factor working in their favor. Next time I will observe stock more closely, and if packet doesn't appear homogeneous, or if they could be startled because heads are down grazing, might call dog back toward me a few steps, so as not to spook a Ms. Bolter-type -- down Josie closer to my position, and then have her slowly walk a few steps toward packet, before giving a flanking command. Preparatory work of this sort might have gotten Ms. Bolter's attention, and allowed her to turn away from dog, like the others, or obtained all the sheeps' attention, making them a more cohesive bunch. In my estimation, good stockmanship is having a mental file of hundreds (thousands?) learned stock behavior experiences, and using them to maneuver handler and dog in ways which minimize chance in the field. Those who have grown up around stock and farms just call it reading your stock, and humbly don't see themselves as having a vast reservoir knowledge and experiences. Handlers who aren't familiar with the farm have a learning curve in front of them, but it is a challenge and adventure, and is done all the time. I say, get out there with your dog and good trainer, and get started. It's a different kind of bond when a dog begins helping its handler complete tasks involving another animal. -- Kind regards, TEC

[terrecar]

Some young dogs, the first couple times in a pen, they will decide to single-off just one sheep in the packet, which can lead to collisions with the fence.

[/Quote]

 

I was already concerned about this ^^ part.

 

I am grateful as well that you and others pointed out that sheep might even bolt and injure themselves without much (any?) pressure from the dog. I can make sense of this since one of the horses I tended to was a rescue draft horse that had come from a bad situation and hence was rather "spooky". Not sure if that is a reasonable comparison, but I do remember I had to be careful with him so he wouldn't panic or bolt.

 

Reading the details of your and others' experiences, I am even more determined to spend some time with sheep sans dog.

[bcnewe2]

I have killed (or my dog) one sheep in our 15 or so years of working stock.

I didn't pick the sheep out that we were working. After a few attempted "fetches" there was one ewe that wouldn't or couldn't stay with the group. I was about to take her out of the group and she took herself out. Dew went a bit wild trying to put her back and they both slid in the sandy soil. Dew never put her mouth on her and really was trying in a young dog way to put her back with the other sheep.

 

The sheep fell over and couldn't get up. I got over there and her neck was crooked in a funny manner. Although the fall didn't seem like the type to cause the injury that she had.

 

Owner came out and mentioned that ewe had been given a shot earlier in her neck of antibiotics and the needle had bent and the ewe had fallen over at that time (or something like that, at the time I wasn't listening to well as I was sorta freaking out about the ewe).

 

That explanation sorta took a bit of guilt off my dog and myself but not much and I still felt horrible.

 

We carried her off to the shade and she died.

 

I paid what the owner asked and to this day still feel horrible.

 

Remember Laurae?

 

I have seen livestock abused in the name of training and I have seen a wether dive into the fence and break it's neck. If something has to die I'd much rather see the instant death of breaking it's neck but the few times I've seen death result it wasn't that easy or instant.

 

Long ago I saw a lady with a very rough dog run a sheep into the fence. Lady didn't have much guilt for the deed, just got her check book out and wrote the check then took the sheep home to be processed. She wasn't invited back to that persons house anyomre.

 

Things happen, I understand that but, as much as I try not to get to close to my sheep or at least the wethers, my sheep know me and I know them. The ewes end up with names because we grow close during lambing times. Even the wethers can get a nickname or 2. When one gets hurt at the hands of someones dog I can swallow it much easier if the person shows remorse or at least apologizes.

 

When people come here to work or used to come over to rent my sheep, I made/make them help me do chores around the sheep so they can learn these are not just dog toys. IF they don't get that idea then they aren't welcome back.

 

It isn't always the hobby herder or the green handler, I've seen just as much or more disrespect for stock in seasoned shepherds. I think it's a mind set or how one personally sees and respects life in general. People who don't respect livestock are usually the same people who disrespect their own dogs too. At least that's what I've seen.

[Smalahundur]

 

Long ago I saw a lady with a very rough dog run a sheep into the fence. Lady didn't have much guilt for the deed, just got her check book out and wrote the check then took the sheep home to be processed. She wasn't invited back to that persons house anyomre.

 

But at least she did the right thing by paying for the damage done. You never know how she felt, some people don´t show their feelings very much.

On the other hand I wouldn´t invite anyone back who was casual about killing one of my sheep either, even when having paid.

 

People who don't respect livestock are usually the same people who disrespect their own dogs too. At least that's what I've seen.

 

Agree with this one, I also think often it is the general attitude towards animals, at least it was in the one case I experienced.

[bcnewe2]

I knew the lady. I think she was embarrassed about what had happened but still an apology would have gone a long way. She has also been known to breed her under par bitch for the money. There's that disrespect or disregard for animals I mentioned earlier. Maybe just a character flaw or at least that's how I saw it.

 

As far as paying, if you kill or damage something, I used to use a release that I had people sign when they came on the prop. Even if I didn't hold them to it, it sure made people aware of the possibilities that could go wrong. Not sue if it would have held up in court but it was written by a lawyer so I think I'd of had a chance.

 

Even with the few disrespectful people around here, they seem to pay or be held accountable. The working world is huge but made small by internet and the local trialing world. Your reputation can be damaged rather quickly. At least round here. I guess some people don't care but those are the ones that find the trials all full by the time they enter.