OK I get it

[alligande]

Mark, the packers demanding large cuts explains those huge legs, when we were in New Zealand we were introduced to a term neither one of us had heard before ( American and a Brit) Hogget for teenage sheep, no longer a lamb but less than a year old which a few Kiwis said they perfered to lamb as it had more taste. Which is what I think most commercially available American lamb would be.

 

Mutton is not common in the UK, I am in my 40s and never had it growing up and when you go to the butchers it's not item you see often.

 

The 2 most common dishes in the uk I can think of for ground lamb are shepherds pie rather than cottage pie and moussaka.

 

Sue sheep have no predators in the UK, foxes are mostly a hazard to fowl, there are no wild/feral dog problems, pet dogs on a rampage can cause issues. It's a small island, lots of people, farmed extensively for a very long time, which means any predators that there were are long gone.

 

When I was visiting my mother last year we where talking about the price of lamb, whiich is also expensive compared to beef, but I do not think the gap was as a big. I usually visit in May and there is a premium for local spring lamb, versus the frozen legs from NZ.

[Mark Billadeau]

The definitions for lamb, hogget and mutton vary considerably between countries. In New Zealand for example, they are defined as follows:

• Lamb — a young sheep under 12 months of age which does not have any permanent incisor teeth in wear
• Hogget — a sheep of either sex having no more than two permanent incisors in wear^[4]
• Mutton — a female (ewe) or castrated male (wether) sheep having more than two permanent incisors in wear.

In Australia the definitions are extended to include ewes and rams, as well as being stricter on the definition for lamb which is:

• Lamb — 0 permanent incisors; female or castrate entire male ovine 0–12 months (note that the Australian definition requires 0 permanent incisors, whereas the New Zealand definition allows 0 incisors 'in wear'.)

 

Sheep (Ovine) carcasses are classified as lamb, yearling mutton, or mutton depending on their age as evidenced by their muscles and bones.

 

USDA

 

Did you note the name of the farmer in "Babe"?

[juliepoudrier]

I thought here in the US that lamb was anything up to 13 months old.

 

I rarely eat lamb, not because I don't like it, but because I sell the lamb. I usually eat my cull ewes. Many breeds are not at all muttony, and if you remove most of the fat (from those who have a lot of fat), it will also cut that flavor.

 

I never really ate sheep before I started raising them. There's generally not much available in the grocery stores. And most of my customers have historically been either hispanic or from Middle Eastern cultures for whom lamb is more of a staple in their diets.

 

I also eat lamb burger (and deer burger).

 

And I do think there's a culture here of "bigger is better" (you know, getting more for your money), and that's a shame because of course it would be a bit more profitable to sell smaller sheep....

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Most sheepmen sell some lambs privately. I only know one who's tapped into the restaurant trade and he works very, very hard at it http://www.borderspringsfarm.com/id1.html

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

Sheep201 lists lamb anything less than 1 year of age but then goes onto say that lambs are marketted between 2 and 14 months of age.

[gcv-border]

 

I talked to a chef at a well-known restaurant in Atlanta a few years ago, and he also said that he tried to offer American lamb when it was available, but that the supply was just to variable, which is why most of the year he gets NZ lamb.

 

J.

 

I think that Americans are too used to having "what they want, when they want". Within the food arena, that means wanting and having fresh strawberries in January in the north, for example. I think one of the things I like about the local food push is that more people are aware of the seasonality of food, and do not necessarily expect foods that are out-of-season for their climate/area. We have a local restaurant that tries very hard to source local foods (at least 80% minimum), and their patrons are very understanding of the variability in the menu.

 

I hope that the locavore trend continues to grow (although I know it will never become mainstream), if only to make more people sensitive to issues like seasonality of foods, use of petroleum products (and the cost) for transporting products cross-country, the downside of mega-conglomerate food producers, etc.

 

I confess, I am not even close to being a locavore, but am trying in my small way.

 

Jovi

[Ooky]

We love lamb burgers, usually mix with some beef though. Also meatballs, meatloaf, sausage and just last night we had meat and fig pie turnover things with half ground lamb.

 

Aside from ground lamb we do thoroughly enjoy other cuts. And if what we get is a little stronger sometimes, first of all I do think that lambiness is an acquired taste that grows on you. I think Pam is absolutely right that most in the US reject lamb because the stronger taste freaks them out when they are so used to beef. So it is weird that they market older larger animals here.

 

(But, and I HIGHLY recommend this, if you have strong lamb you can always just cook it in honey- not just a glaze but a Moroccan honey sauce. It's so good and almost the stronger the better to pair with the honey. Wow, ok now I'm really hungry )

 

I've spoken to fancy restaurant staff here in the bay area, for example at deodeka in Los Gatos you can always get mind-blowing lamb and the cuts are tiny and ALWAYS imported. They said American lamb just isn't the same as NZ. Local slow food places use CA lamb though. I see a big difference with the NZ lamb, either at a restaurant or store-bought -- in my experience it is more tender and mild. Less flavor (and less gamey taste) in the fat. Both are good IMO.

[Carson Crazies]

I haven't bought grocery store beef in something like 5 years. I typically try to put a cull ewe or wether in my freezer (sometimes two) every year, and other than chicken it's my staple meat.

 

My family all finds it strange. *shrug* I use mostly ground - and use it anywhere I'd usually use beef... lamburgers, shepherd's pie, chili, spaghetti sauce, and so on. In fact, I just happened to notice the other day that my freezer is completely empty of lamb/mutton. That will never do.

[Liz P]

There is (maybe was by now) a farmer in MA who sold most of his lamb to a diner that focuses on fresh, local ingredients. He was in his mid 90s when I last spoke with him, so I don't know if he is around any longer or if his family took over the farm.

 

I personally love lamb and I also substitute ground lamb for beef when I can (shepherd's pie, burgers, etc). I've served people lamb stew made with tougher cuts and they thought it was beef until I told them otherwise.

[alligande]

This conversation is really interesting to me, and has helped explain the absence of lamb in mainstream US food stores, as long as I have lived here, I have missed "young" fresh lamb.

Julie can you explain to me why it would be more profitable to sell a smaller lamb, I am just flat out curious about the economics.

[NorthfieldNick]

I direct-market every lamb I raise (120-200 per year), selling custom-cut by the whole or half, to restaurants whole & sometimes cuts, and through a farm stand and farmer's market. We could raise and sell twice as many lambs and not saturate the market. My customers are my best salesmen. They feed their friends, who feed their friends, etc. I have numerous customers who say they or their spouse "don't like lamb" but enjoy mine. I'm all grass-fed, lamb slaughtered right on the farm, cut & wrapped by a skilled crew one at a time. I grind my cull ewes and sell it with full disclosure. I'll even give it away for people to taste. My customers LOVE the ground ewes.

 

I market lambs up to about 18 months old. Hot hanging weight of 45-55 lbs.

 

The few restaurants I sell to use lamb as it's available, or buy whole lambs to break down themselves. One place buys ground in bulk.

 

Marketing lamb to any but the smallest grocery stores isn't usually worth it for an individual small producer. You have to approach marketing differently- lamb, especially grass-fed, is a seasonal product. It needs to be seen as a specialty, like spring asparagus or rhubarb. Chefs, and individuals at home, need help sometimes to learn to cook cuts other than racks, chops, and whole legs. Sometimes that means providing recipes, or even demoing a cooking method. There's a big market for local lamb out there, it just takes a bit more effort to sell than a feed-lot cow.

[mum24dog]

You can't beat the light sweet flavour of salt marsh lamb. I prefer any lamb to the relatively bland taste of beef but lamb raised on the marshes is the best.

 

Lots of salt marshes round here and next month the season will start and I'll be able to get the lamb from a local farm.

[TEC]

Here is a website out of Idaho seriously promoting grass-fed lamb and stewardship:

 

http://www.lavalakelamb.com/?gclid=CIuO4OHTg68CFWsaQgod_GWA1Q

 

IMO it's worth a click, if only to view the beautiful photos.

 

I wish them the best. -- TEC

[juliepoudrier]

Alligande,

It's simple, really. The less time you keep a lamb, the less it eats, the less maintenance (worming, foot trimming, etc.) it needs, and all that translates into lower cost for me as a producer. Granted, once the grass comes in, feed cost goes to zero, but that doesn't really take into account pasture maintenance, etc.

 

Many people tout the UK three-tier production system as a means of growing lambs to 90 pounds in 90 days (this assumes you've got forage for the ewes). Essentially the lamb is at slaughter weight (Ben's 45-55 pound hanging weight) at the time of weaning. If you can ship the lambs at weaning, they're not competing with the ewes for forage and you're not having to take care of them....

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

haven't seen a one that didn't 'doctor' the lamb burger. However the lamb industry out here tends to do just lamb burgers-plain (maybe some salt but doubtful) and it is not a good selling tool.

 

Personally I mix it with garaham masala grill tiny burgers and add tziki sauce, tomatoes, onions, lettuce etc on pita-yum-hmmm dinner time

[Liz P]

I love my lamb burgers spiced well and topped with tzatziki sauce. Grilled is best.

 

To be honest, I am completely tired of commercially raised chicken. I think it completely lacks any flavor, yet I hear the average American praising it for the very same reason. They like the blank slate taste. I suppose that's why they dislike lamb.

[Pam Wolf]

Probably. I like the Smart Chicken it really tasts like chicken!

 

Most of the people who have tried lamb around her seem surprised it actually has flavor.

[alligande]

Thanks for the explanation Julie.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Shepherds,

 

Julie wrote: "The less time you keep a lamb, the less it eats,"

 

Also, the less time it has to find its proper place to lie down and die.

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

Free range time doesn´t cost in pasture maintenance.

Afraid they "lie down and die"...? Then I´d say find a more robust breed...

[Sue R]

Free range time doesn´t cost in pasture maintenance.

In much of the US and Canada, at least, being out freely involves being in a fenced pasture of some sort and that involves mainenance - whether it's fencing repairs and maintenance, reseeding at some time, application of lime and/or fertilizer at some time, clipping (a big need in foxtail areas), and other jobs. So, while pasture involves little of the machinery use that haying involves (making it much lower cost), it still does have some cost associated with it. It's simply the cheapest and least demanding (usually) of feeding systems, but it's not "free". Out on real range land, without fencing, the primary costs (involved with the feeding aspect) are labor (sheep tenders and their needs) and dogs (stockworking dogs and LGDs).

 

Afraid they "lie down and die"...? Then I´d say find a more robust breed...

The longer you have any animal, robust or not, the more likely it is to die. But you are right that people need to choose a breed that is not "delicate" by nature.

[juliepoudrier]

So, while pasture involves little of the machinery use that haying involves (making it much lower cost), it still does have some cost associated with it. It's simply the cheapest and least demanding (usually) of feeding systems, but it's not "free". Out on real range land, without fencing, the primary costs (involved with the feeding aspect) are labor (sheep tenders and their needs) and dogs (stockworking dogs and LGDs).

Exactly Sue. I don't know how pasturing works in Iceland, but here we have pasture losses due to drought, overgrowth by brush, and so on. Keeping a decent pasture requires more than just throwing the livestock out on it. Controlled burns (generally in lieu of adding lime), planting legumes to add nitrogen (or fertilizing), replanting after losses to drought, etc. Maintenance costs money, not to mention time, which is the same as money. Pasture doesn't spring from nothingness. If you have electric fencing, then you have to check it regularly for shorts and to make repairs as needed. Field fence may be less vulerable to plant overgrowth, but, for example, some of my fencing runs through woods. Trees fall. Fencing needs to be repaired. If you're someone who uses a rotational or intensive grazing system, and perhaps uses electronet or other moveable fencing to achieve that, then there's the cost of the time involved to move fencing and move livestock. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would consider free ranging animals on pasture as an entirely free source of feed. That would apply only if you had free use of, say, government-owned land. And even though most farmers don't really pay themselves for their time, their time *is* worth something and so adds to the cost, because time spent, say moving stock or fence, is time taken away from some other task.

 

And of course, the fewer animals you range, the less stress on your pasture (a real concern here where my stocking rate is pretty low, but where drought is going to force me to go lower) and the better growth for the remaining animals.

 

Maybe the differenc is in Smalahundur's definition of free range? Perhaps he means that he ranges his sheep on common lands that don't belong to him and so the care of such land isn't his responsibility? We have free range in the west (though they still can't ignore pasturing conditions), but in the rest of this country, free ranging means free to graze on pasture (vs. confined to dry lots or feed lots). And someone has to take care of that pasture. Forage is a crop like any other, and most folks don't grow crops ad infinitum without ever doing anything to help the land that grows those crops.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Shepherds,

Forty years ago I offered to catch for a neightbor's shearing. Coyotes hadn't arrived and he ran livestock in the appalachian forest farming tradition - you turned pigs and sheep into the woods in the spring with their new lambs and tolled them in in the fall.

 

Catching was pretty easy - I could carry a ewe under my arm. They were parasite proof, thrived on acorns and produced as much as one live lamb every year for 8 years.

 

Suffolk (hamp)xdorset ewes which are commonest in my region, wiegh 130-140 pounds rear pretty close to 2 lambs every year on good pasture, graining and creep feeding. Before they lamb - I read somewhere - 40% of their body weight is lambs and birth fluids.

 

Like Holsteins, they aren't hardy.

 

Donald McCaog

[Smalahundur]

I was talking about free range as in free range. Area that is not fenced in, my sheep could walk to Reykjavik, on the other side of the island if they wanted (would be quite a walk though).

Fencing work means fencing to keep our sheep and those of the neighboring farms out of our hey land.

Main cost with this free foraging is the man power for the annual roundup (guess why I got into border collies... )

But having sheep and/or land means that you have to contribute to this anyway (ancient laws...). I wouldn´t miss it for the world, on horseback, with the dogs, it´s great fun.

Predator pressure is thankfully very low; the largest land predator, in my opinion more of an scavenger, is the arctic fox, not much of a threat for a healthy ewe with her lambs.

[TEC]

Range sheep business (aka free range) in the US Northwest often means having grazing leases on State Forest, BLM and US Forest Service land. Maintaining leases is an essential part of sheep ranching economy. In my experience, NW farmers/ranchers are sensitive to the environment, quite apart from gov't regulations and lease obligations. Water/stream quality, wildlife habitat, sustainability and predator-friendly methods are high priority to many ranchers. Some hire conservation biologists, and work in conjunction/harmony with environmental groups to maintain feed for their stock, along with a healthy environment.

 

I applaud their efforts, and wish the family farm/ranch success and sustainability. -- Kind regards, TEC