Mark Billadeau Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 The goal is to bring and mantain calm sheep until releasing the sheep to the competing dog. This may take different handling on my part of each of my dogs due to the different issues both dogs have. I'm trying to minimize the impact of my dogs' issues on each group of sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Mark, Of course, the goal is to keep the sheep settled, but as you know, not all sheep are placid and willing to just stand in a designated spot. I was speaking in terms of managing sheep that don't want to settle, not the dog's overall affect on keeping sheep settled. Clearly if the sheep will settle, then how the dog flanks is ultimately immaterial because the dog shouldn't need to flank. But I know that if I have sheep that want to break and run and I'm trying to keep them in one place, a dog that will work closer is a godsend. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Julie, My comments were not addressed to you but were more just thoughts I have about managing situations with my dogs. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 A small technical correction....the Dry Lake Sheep are not range ewes. They are from the commercial flock of Don Gnos....usually some sort of non-fine wool cross (coarser more open wool)....ie. coopworth, romney, lincoln, NCC. These commercial flocks comprised of large flocks (in thousands) and grazed intensively on rich grass pasture...and well protected. ... Thank you for that. I never really heard where they were from, or if I did, I didn't know what the owner's name meant. At any rate, they were wonderful to learn from and work with! ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Gloria, They are lovely sheep....just not range ewes. Usually the breed of sheep is a good indicator of type....also their behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hello all, There's a couple things that got missed in this thread. Usually, the fewer dogs at set out, the better. I've never been anywhere where 1 good dog at a time wasn't enough, and yet in some places you'll see many. Unless you're using worn out, half-dead school sheep, there's no reason to use dogs in the pens. The less dogged they are before they get to the trial, the worse it becomes. They should be standing nice and quiet in there, preferably eating. When you first let sheep out to be set, most of the time, they'll slow down or even stop at some point if you keep dogs off them until they do. If people would just hang onto their dogs, and give them a minute when they first let them out, things would go so much more smoothly. The distance the set out dogs work from the sheep matters. The fresher the sheep, the farther the better. If they're fresh, you don't have to drive them, just guide 'em. Only the most enlightened trial promoters and set out people realize how important it is to feed the sheep throughout a trial. It's common sense. Sheep are browsers, they naturally eat as long as there is daylight, and they get really miserable when they're hungry. Just about anywhere you go where people are talking about how difficult the sheep are to whatever, it's because they're hungry. When I pay entry fees to run, I will wait as long as necessary for the set out people to get it right. Personally, I don't stand at the post while I'm waiting either, because I think it causes tension in my dogs. I stand behind the post somewhere watching, and the moment the sheep are happy, and the set out dog(s) are out of the way, I walk out and send. I don't waste my 1 shot on a bad set out. I do make up for it on the other end though. So much time is wasted on exhaust, so I either exhaust them myself, or make sure they're settled and headed in the right direction before I let go of them to the exhaust person. Next time you go to a trial, and there is discussion about how consistently tough the sheep are, ask yourself what's going on at the top. Set out can make or break your run, and an entire trial. We don't discuss it enough and there are precious few who get it right. Cheers all, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Amelia, This is another very informative post. And people wonder why instead of completing my PHD I grabbed onto herding hook line and sinker. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancyp Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Amelia , you say that setout is the problems if the sheep are consistqnly tough? I know at Meeker they are over fed to the point that they bed down in it and do not eat the feed they are given. I know at least for Meeker , watching from the top that there are VERY few dogs , if they come in wrong will be able to lift the sheep correctly or at all . I know from these western sheep just off their summer graze that if you let them out and give them time to settle , just out the pen , you will surely loose them , as they take great pride in getting back to the flock, At the finals this year they had feed all day and nite, whether it be in a pen or most the time out on some kind of pasture. They were just tough sheep . And somewhat different than the meeker sheep . i too have seen set out that people use a dog that is not capable of the job , or a person who just doesnt understand what they are doing. i for one am thankful for anyone who takes on that job , as it is long hours either on foot or in the saddle, Nancy P , Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Nancy, I tend to agree with you, but thought it wasn't worth pursuing. But now I'm letting my fingers fly, lol! We all want to blame someone else when our dogs can't get the job done. Blaming the set out is just one more example of that. If you witness poor set out, then you should have a word with the course director. If you send your dog, then you are tacitly accepting that packet of sheep and it's a bit unfair to blame the set out for whatever happens after that. At a recent trial, the sheep ate like pigs in the set out and the minute they were let out (once you could drag them away from their friends in the pens), they dropped their heads and were difficult to move (because grass is better than hay, even if you've already stuffed yourself with hay). I'm sure handlers whose dogs couldn't move those sheep who wanted to graze could have blamed hungry, sheep for their troubles, but I saw what they ate, and there's no way they were starving. As for waiting until the sheep are settled, that's the handler's choice. IME the sheep (at least here in the east) will settle for some period of time and then they'll decide they'd like to head elsewhere. The handler who waits too long to come to the post might find those nicely settled sheep completely unsettled and trying to break for some other part of the field by the time they finally send their dog. And I also have never seen scads of dogs at the top. I think everyone can agree that the set out's job is to try to get the sheep to the set out point as calmly and efficiently as possible. To assume that difficult sheep are always the fault of the set out crew is a GREAT BIG assumption and one that is largely mistaken, IMO. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Amelia , you say that setout is the problems if the sheep are consistqnly tough? No, Nancy, I said this: Next time you go to a trial, and there is discussion about how consistently tough the sheep are, ask yourself what's going on at the top. And I said that because often times set out and sheep handling conditions will be the problem. Cheers all, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 And here I was led to believe that western range sheep were just plain tough. Who'd have thought that if only the set out was better the sheep would be so much easier to work? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 It's always easy to blame the set-out for one's own shortcomings. Or the sheep. Or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well, the topic is about the set out team. And the topic about the shortcomings of dog is a different one. Both are very interesting. Of course if my dog was way faster and I had better reflex the sheep at one trial, the sheep would have not run away, and had dog X was better trained she would have not got sticky at 9 o'clock which was the direction of the fated opening to the exhaust. And had dog Y been better trained and went wider, the sheep would not have veered around him and escaped through the same hole. And had dog Z.... Buty the fact is there was a wide opening to the exhaust very close to the outrun and the drive gate. At that trial I was told by one person to stop talking about the sheep. So what I am to talk about? football? The sheep are an important part of the run. So is the set out team. It is not about the blame game but about discussing all the factors that influence the run. And the set out team is one of them. And this is what the discussion is about, I thought. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Maja, There is a culture in this country of blaming everything and anything but oneself and one's training when things go wrong at a sheepdog trial. When payback, points, and ego are on the line, well, you know folks will look for something to blame. Usually the people complaining the loudest are those who don't host trials and don't volunteer or otherwise work at trials. That's a blanket statement of course, but IME there is some validity in it. The set out team is important, the health of the sheep is important, the quality of the judge is important, even the weather is important, and yes, sometimes the competing teams get a bad set of sheep or have to deal with some other hardship that doesn't seem quite fair. Obstacles/issues with the course are generally less of an issue because they are at least the same for everyone. As someone who does set out at trials in the eastern part of this country where farm flocks are the norm, I have often sympathized with handlers that get a particular sheep in their packet, because I know she's going to be trouble. But that's the luck of the draw and it's not the place of the set out crew to hand pick sheep for the competitors. What I don't like hearing is that if the sheep are uniformly difficult then it must be the fault of the set out. That sounds like an excuse to me. IME the set out crew does its best to set the sheep evenly and consistently and to treat the sheep as they would want their own sheep treated. And the set out crew and their dog(s) are the ones standing/walking up there for hours and miles on end, doing their best to make things fair for the competitors, and certainly not deliberately trying to make things more difficult for competitors. But as you can see from some of the comments in this thread, it's also a thankless job because someone will always find a reason to complain. I see nothing wrong with talking about the sheep, if it's being done in a constructive manner--that is, if the discussion is about how best to handle them and not just that they're bad sheep. I was just having a discussion with a friend of mine about how people would like to have more trials available to them, but how at the same time they'll find ways to complain about the new venues--the sheep, the setting, whatever. I'm not saying that such things shouldn't be discussed (with an eye to how to make it better), but I think trial competitors should always be cognizant of the fact that hosting a trial isn't easy and one's sheep are one's sheep and they may not be perfect, but they are sheep and their owner is allowing a bunch of people and dogs to come stress them repeatedly, for several days at a time. One reason I like doing set out is that I don't hear the complaining, at least not until threads like this, lol! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 One reason I like doing set out is that I don't hear the complaining, at least not until threads like this, lol! J. You don't hear the complaining because most people in the East recognize the quality of your set-out work. If someone was to gripe, there would be quite the number of people around them to put them straight. I have seen people whose set-out job is not what I would consider optimal - either they improve or they are not invited back to do the job. Tough sheep are tough sheep, and the luck of the draw is part of sheepdog trialing. It applies to all competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Julie, I understand this is a difficult topic and that someone may take it personally, and so any criticism must be worded very carefully so that it is taken neither as absolving oneself nor as blaming everybody for one's own mistakes. I understand that sometimes the circumstances are favorable and sometimes they aren't. What's more, what's favorable for me is not favorable for someone else. But I take apart every one of my runs afterwards and analyze the best I can so that I learn. Personally, I have so little experience in trialling that I only became really aware of the set out team as factor (since until then they were simple the guys you loved for doing all the hard work)because my dog reacted to the(sudden)presence of the set out person - the set out team was completely blameless, it was just the first time in her life that she saw someone up there. So I wanted to learn more about it, and the topic has been very informative in that respect. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 We just had 3 weeks of trialling in Ontario. Since we don't have the extra money we do not pay set out crew, although that would certainly be a luxury. At least 2 people got fired from set out by the judge, usually training a young dog, by the judge. I hope no one was offended but sometimes your style just doesn't work well with the sheep at a given trial. I can't do set out with my older dog as she has too much eye and it is not good for her trialling. She is GREAT at set out. The younger dog is capable but i don't trust her yet. So we don't do it. My husband set for quite some time at one of the trials and because of where the set out was he had to hold very hard (and was told to hold very tightly) which made the lift easier for many a dog that was wrong. Frustrating for him but his instructions were from the judge. The judge will sort out what is wrong at the top. WE don't need to bitch too much I HATE when people bitch about the sheep. They are the people that don't normally have 200+ sheep and run a large (for the east) commercial operation. Yes they know where the barn is, and yes they will try and beat your dog if it isn't covering, and no you can't run the bejeepers out of them, because they will lie down or just exit stage right, no matter what appropriate grip your dog puts on it....ok, rant over; Sometimes you get a bad set, a bad draw, just plain bad luck; suck it up and be gracious CynthiaP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Just to clarify, I'm not taking this personally. I am sure the set out on occasion screws up (or contributes to the screwing up of) a run. I know I've been in the position of having to make a split-second decision and have made the wrong one. I know that sometimes my dogs have interfered where they shouldn't have. But in those instances, I trust the *judge* to take my mistake into account when judging the run or to offer a re-run if my mistake was that bad. No one is perfect. I just think that blanket statements about tough sheep being the result of mishandling at the set out is wildly inaccurate. I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which the set out crew is consistently bad enough to create problem sheep for every run (or most runs) at a trial, and if for some reason they are, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be hired again, because no trial host or course director deliberately wants to make life rough for the sheep or for the competitors. Set out does affect runs, no doubt. I remember when I was holding out for a friend and her dog misbehaved (blew off a command I think). She wanted me to get after him. My response to her was "Do you really want a set out person correcting your dog? What will that make your dog think about approaching the set out?" But aside from trials that use volunteers, who no doubt do the best they can but whose efforts can be as variable as the individuals and dogs doing the work, paid set out crews generally see themselves as professionals and try to conduct themselves as such. <--This too is a blanket statement, but as someone who has set out a lot, I just don't see set out crews who approach set out in a cavalier manner that would cause the sheep to make problems for the competitors. ETA: Cynthia, we don't charge much. Four runs covers the expense of set out for the day. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 But Julie, we have to get you up to Canada... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well there is that, lol! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I HATE when people bitch about the sheep. . . Sometimes you get a bad set, a bad draw, just plain bad luck; suck it up and be gracious Oh dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 As you can probably tell Maja, there's a culture of complaint over here (not everyone, but enough). J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 As you can probably tell Maja, there's a culture of complaint over here (not everyone, but enough). I escape here from my culture of complaint :lol: . Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I am sure we all have our complainers, but we are also fortunate to have a lot of wonderful, caring, sharing people in the stockdog world. For those, I am very grateful. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 we are also fortunate to have a lot of wonderful, caring, sharing people in the stockdog world. Absolutely. I always say that Bonnie and I a result of an international effort. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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