juliepoudrier Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Well Amelia, I think I've stated quite clearly that there are places where set out can be improved, so obviously I'm not blind to potential issues. But I still think a blanket statement, repeated numerous times, that set out is likely the cause (or does "look to the set out" have some other meaning of which I'm not aware?) of uniformly tough sheep smacks of someone with an ax to grind. Quibbling over semantics doesn't change that. Or maybe Scott, Amanda, Bill, Dennis, Bev and them just aren't very good. They're not usually the ones complaining long and loud about the sheep at (or after) a trial anyway. As for the disconnect, I had a conversation with a friend recently about the difference between working all day at a trial, working every set of sheep, having to pull set after set off the set out because they don't want to leave their buddies, having to change how you deal with the sheep as their behavior changes throughout the day, sometimes covering quite a bit of distance from the pens to the set out (at one trial I calculated that *I* covered 10 miles on foot in one day; my dog covered quite a bit more ground), all the while with the dog keeping its cool and treating the sheep nicely so we don't give the competitors cause to complain, well, you're right, it *is* different from actually competing in the trial, and it says a lot that you think the competitors' dogs have the harder job. I'm not surprised though. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Dear Sheepdoggers, As a trial host, I am responsible for providing handlers a fair go. That means even sheep, an unbiased, hardworking judge, a course that doesn't change during the day and skilled setout and penwork. For many years I asked open handlers to spot for a few runs each but though most did a fine job some didn't. For consistency I prefer one spotter/penworker team. At my trial Julie Poudrier and Deb Crowder provide calm sheep, set out evenly and quietly run after run, day after day. They're good for the competitors, good for the sheep and - since I needn't worry about that part of the trial, they settle my nerves. Yes it is difficult to get a score on sheep that have been mishandled at the top. I have seen substandard spotting in the UK, California and Massachusetts. But these days, poor spotting is not common. In the east, bad sheep are all too common. Not because they're difficult to handle - open handlers can't rightfully object to difficult/flighty/stubborn/spooky/running sheep. "Bad" sheep are uneven and/or outright nuts. Because they are far too few for the number of times they're run. Or they come from a Heinz 57 flock, or they're all bottle babies or last weekend they were facing Malinois at an AKC event and they'll be trained on next week by newbies with no talent uncontrolled sheepdogs. "Bad" sheep tend to be wildly uneven and in the worst case the draw determines the trial outcome. That said: Handlers and dogs who adapt to bad sheep must become more sheep savvy than handlers who only work even, sane lightly dogged sheep -whether range Rambouilettes or Kathadins. Nuthouse attendants must be cleverer than chaparones at the church youth group picnic. Donald McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 As I am new to trialing, I was surprised and happy when asked to help with set out. And a number of things contributed to my learning this skill. And most trials I do help. One is the wise words of the Handlers that had been doing it for a long time. Two was my work with sheep. When we saw problems with the pens or the way things were working we changed what we were doing. Most of the time we caught things before they created a problem. 'Less dog is more' I agree with the hungry sheep thing. My Sweep is not a great dog to set with as he is reluctant to let sheep go. So I do not use him. In one situation the crew was having a hard time with sheep coming back to the pens.And loading the sheep into the little pens. The Trial host was there so I politely asked her if I could use my old dog. I had little Gunny in the truck whom I don't trial, but she was my main dog for the USDA mobile slaughter unit. Tough little thing, used to working in tight areas quietly. I was so proud of her because she turned an unpleasant job into a very easy one. But it was Old Gunny, and not one sheep was upset. Taw surprised me when asked to walk sheep out at one trial as she was a natural for set out. Quiet and easy. I use horses in my work at home as I do not like to walk in the foraging work if I can help it. I think mostly they use horses when it a long walk to the set out from the pens. Anyway it is great fun and I am always glad to help. Also I always try to ask the set out crew what they saw after my dogs run. They give me very useful information. I am glad to be included in the set out work. It is very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 BTW I think, Sheepdogging Geezer, your comments are spot on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 I want to thank Julie for her careful, lucid descriptions. I feel I've learned a tremendous amount about set out from her contributions to this thread. Thanks, as always, Julie! I really value your input to the BC Boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 well, you're right, it *is* different from actually competing in the trial, and it says a lot that you think the competitors' dogs have the harder job. I'm not surprised though. Julie, you have an uncanny ability to take a statment and misdirect it to suit your own agenda. Just like misdirected anger, however, you're way off base. Cheers all, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Ah yes, well, I do write and edit for a living, so clearly I have problems understanding the written word. Yep, that's gotta be it. I really don't think I'm the one with the agenda.... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Only the most enlightened trial promoters and set out people realize how important it is to feed the sheep throughout a trial. It's common sense. Sheep are browsers, they naturally eat as long as there is daylight, and they get really miserable when they're hungry. Just about anywhere you go where people are talking about how difficult the sheep are to whatever, it's because they're hungry. Next time you go to a trial, and there is discussion about how consistently tough the sheep are, ask yourself what's going on at the top. Set out can make or break your run, and an entire trial. We don't discuss it enough and there are precious few who get it right. I've resisted joining this conversation for a long time and i'll probably regret jumping in now, but here goes. The above statements very clearly state that you believe most trial hosts do not feed the sheep enough to keep them from being hungry (only the "most enlightened" feed the sheep adequately) and most setout crews are inept ("precious few" get it right). I go to a *lot* of trials, from one end of the country to the other, and i don't agree. It does happen at some (very, very few, thankfully) but most trials provide well for the sheep and the setout is reasonably good. And the bigger trials (Finals, Meeker, Soldier Hollow, Bluegrass, Edgeworth, Slash J, the Big One) do the best job on both counts, as far as i've seen. I won't get into the difference in the job of the competing dogs vs the setout crew dogs, as i think you're talking apples and oranges, but it's been bothering me for 3 pages of posts to see these comments disparaging trial hosts and set out crews, so there's what i have experienced and observed myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancyp Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 I agree julie is spot on !!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Again, in the interest of clarity, there is no doubt in my mind that the set out dogs work harder than the trial dogs when they are used for any length of time. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thank you, Julie, for taking the time to explain things very clearly and from the point of view of an experienced and highly-regarded set-out person (and part of a super set-out team). Thank you, Robin, for summing some things up succinctly. Thanks to all who have participated in an interesting discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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