The invaluable set out team

[juliepoudrier]

Does that mean we get to share in any prize winnings?

 

J.

[Maja]

Sure. If I win anything, I will carefully divide the 50 lb bag of dog food among all the wonderful advisors . (You don't get anything more than that at the trials over here )

Maja

[Amelia]

Just to be clear here, I wasn't complaining about anything, or anyone, just making observation. I go to a trial, I run my dog, I remember what we did right on the way home, write the hosts a thank you note, and go on my way.

 

I go to a fair number of trials throughout the year, and I see lots of problems at the top. Are they the only reason a run can go bad? No, and where did I say that? Are sheep sometimes difficult even when managed under the best of circumstances? Absolutely...I was at the finals this year. Did I say when sheep are tough, it's always due to set out? No, I didn't. Am I able to evenly assess my handling problems, and those of my dogs? Read this:"My dogs suck, or Nicomodes part deux."

 

The only reason I even commented here is because quite often I'll hear people complaining about how tough sheep are that haven't been fed all day, are being mistreated by set out dogs, set out with too many dogs and hands. All I'm saying is that before you condemn the sheep, consider set out. It won't always be to blame, but at least be aware of it.

 

Geez people, calm down.

 

We can't get better if we don't discuss how to accomplish that. I am only suggesting ways to make things better where that's necessary. Take it, or leave it. I don't care. I still go to trials where I know the set out and sheep management will suck. And, I don't complain about it, or make excuses with it. People who actually know me will tell you that. I do the best I can with what I have to work with, dogs, sheep and handling skills, and hope it will be better next time.

 

Cheers all,

[Maja]

Amelia,

 

I understood your first post . It is important to understand all the contributing factors because it will influence what a person does in their training and what they look at during a trial. When Bonnie started trialling she completely lost her nice deep outruns and started slicing in like an idiot. She was like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. beautiful at home, terrible somewhere else. Thanks to the discussions here, I realized it was largely due to the presence of the set out person which was completely foreign to her until her first competition. But it could have been: setting her wrong for the outrun, new sheep, new place, I suppose the set out dog. But it seems it was the person was the most important (though not the only one). Now, if I assumed it was new sheep, that would send me in a wrong direction because I would make the effort to go and practice on new sheep and I would do it without the set out team.

 

So my question is if you see a bunch of sheep that you suspect is pressured by the set out or they are unhappy because they are hungry how would it change your handling (possibly each situation would require something different)?

 

Maja

[Smalahundur]

Sure. If I win anything, I will carefully divide the 50 lb bag of dog food among all the wonderful advisors . (You don't get anything more than that at the trials over here )

Maja

Hehe, same here, a bag of dog food is pretty standard as prize, also entering fees are low to non existent. Makes for sportive events.

 

Back on topic, I have been at a couple of trials here (only as a spectator, but next year, next year....), and I never noticed a "set out" team with a dog at the top. The sheep are "thrown" out of a horse trailer, it drives off, after that the handler and his dog are on their own.

[Laurae]

 

 

So my question is if you see a bunch of sheep that you suspect is pressured by the set out or they are unhappy because they are hungry how would it change your handling (possibly each situation would require something different)?

 

Maja

 

How would you know they were hungry? I know sheep that have been accused of being hungry at trials and they were quite well fed. That's the problem with trying to assign blame when you don't actually have all the facts. Just run your dog the best you can and stop trying to find external reasons when things go south.

[Maja]

Oh, bother. Can we please stop talking about "blame" and continue talking about contributing factors?

 

I went to a trial. First I watched the sheep with other competitors, then I talked to some friends. The sheep had two strong draws (other sheep behind the fence and the direction home). Because it was a qualifying run, it began with taking the sheep out of the pen. So I looked at them as a shepherd. My estimation was they we tired and restless. My conclusion was, I can't let them stop or we will have problem moving them again, and they will look for an opportunity to escape. The sheep's being tired was important in how I handled my dog. I was very happy about my estimation, because it was correct. And after the run I analyzed what I did wrong.

 

If the test didn't start with emptying the pen, I would have suspected they were tired rather than known they were tired. And I would have handled the dog based on what I suspected. So I asked in the question what would a person do if they suspected the sheep were very hungry and unhappy about it. OK?

 

I loved the sheep I mentioned here. Working on them was a treat. They were great. A bit tricky, very fast, confident, smart (they were a clun cross). Not easy. But who wants easy sheep! And I learned a lot from their attempted escapes. And if they succeed, I would have said they escaped because of the draw. Because this is the one thing I can't change, so I have to change other things to deal with it (namely my handling of my dog).

 

So I discuss the escape with my friends, ruminate on it, come to the conclusion that a half flank would have been in order, that I must watch out for the signs in that deceptive frisky trot, that the dog being too far actually may provoke the sheep to escape due to coming off contact. These are my thoughts - the thoughts of a newbie so they are still only very rough and some maybe wrong, but this is what I would say if someone asked me what to do if I know there is strong draw somewhere. Saying "Just run your dog the best you can and stop trying to find external reasons when things go south" would be tremendously useless.

 

Maja

[Laurae]

I don't know then, Maja. I guess bring some hay to the post.

[juliepoudrier]

Maja,

I think there are really two separate discussions going on here. You're trying to figure out how to analyze what's happening so that you can do better next time. There's nothing wrong with that--we all do it.

 

The other discussion has to do with the habit, at least in this part of the world, that many competitors have of assigning blame to external entities when they have a poor run. You haven't trialed much and your trials are for qualifications and a bag of dog food. Here people win money (sometimes a lot of it, though no one is making a living trialing I suppose) and points toward the National Finals, and perhaps invitations to prestigious trials like Soldier Hollow or the World Trial. They also spend a lot of time and money traveling long distances to go to trials. It's only natural that when they have spent all that time and money to get there and then have something like 10 minutes to run their dog that when things go badly they'll look for something/someone to blame. It's human nature.

 

To use Amelia's example, perhaps the sheep are hungry. But the larger picture is that trialing isn't what sheep do; it's what humans do. We've put the sheep into an artificial situation not of their choosing. They are *automatically* stressed by the very nature of trialing. It interferes with the natural rhythm of their day--which includes eating, chewing cud, resting, and hanging out in their family groups. I do a lot of set out. I rarely see sheep eating the offered food in the set out, but occasionally I do. What's the difference between the flocks that eat and those that don't? Stress? Feed quality? The major change in their routine?

 

There are generalizations you can make about sheep behavior that can translate over to trials. For example, my flock grazes at certain times of the day, and they lay about resting at other times. It's their routine. If we were using them at a trial, then it's likely that people running at the times of day when my flock would normally graze would find their sheep wanting to graze. Weather also affects sheep. If it's a windy day, not only will it be more difficult for your dog to hear your whistles, but the sheep are likely to me more frisky or skittish than they would be in calm weather. Rain and storms can make them skittish too. Heat can make them cranky. Shadows and ditches and water are things they want to avoid, and if those things appear on a trial field during one part of the day, they will affect the runs that correspond with their appearance.

 

A dog that's too pushy can make sheep want to turn and fight. But one could also suppose that maybe the sheep are unwell, or hungry, or tired and that's why they want to fight the dog. It could be a combination of all those things. But it could simply be that the dog has mistreated them and they're tired of the mistreatment (they've chose fight over flight).

 

The reality is that at home you might run into these same issues with your own sheep. You work through it. Maybe on a different day or at a different time of day your sheep are easier to work. If you're at a clinic and you work your dog when the sheep want to nap, perhaps they give your dog trouble and as a result your dog doesn't show itself as capable as it might be under other circumstances. Is that the sheep's fault? You could say that. Or you could say, "Well, I suppose my dog needs to learn how to handle sheep who want to nap rather than walk/trot around a field."

 

I'm starting to ramble, I suppose, so I'll stop here. Certainly the sheep, set out, weather, etc., affect how a competitive run might go. The question is whether it makes sense to attribute a poor run mostly or entirely to external conditions or if one might also want to consider that one's dog just wasn't entirely prepared to deal with the conditions at the time that one's dog ran.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Or you could just walk away and say, "my dog wasn't good enough to handle the sheep/cows that were presented today" and go home and figure out if there is something you can do to improve the dog of if the improvement needs to be done genetically. But then there are people that get upset because they believe you are blaming the dog.

[Maja]

Julie,

 

I am fully aware of everything you wrote. And I do know there are two discussions here. Believe me, I just because I want to have a constructive discussion does not mean I am naive. I just think that the latter discussion is pointless. If I say I had a problem with this or that behavior of the sheep at a trial and someone gives me a smartypants answer "just get a life and quit complaining about the sheep" I have not learned anything about trialling and the discussion pretty much ends at this point.

 

Just like when I asked about my own sheep escaping on drive. Was the answer "quit complaining and realize that your dog/handling sucks?" No, your answer was "do a half flank." It was a thing I would not have come up myself in a million years. Or in another situation, I said to Marion "When I do this, the sheep go there." And she said "so stand there, like this". And poof! the problem was gone! Would it have been better if she said "well your handling sucks, so don't blame the sheep, because it's not their fault!"

 

I think it was not an accident that when we got snowed out of the last day of the clinic with Derek he talked mostly about sheep, and how to handle the dog depending on how they behave. Because as far as I can see an awful lot of how one handles the dog depends on how the sheep behave.

 

So what was in my original question to indicate that I was blaming the sheep? Because even after I gave a detailed information about how I felt about them, I got the smartypants advice to take some hay to the post. Thanks, Laurae, it's going to improve my handling a great deal .

 

I will be grateful (and I am not being sarcastic here) if someone will point out what I wrote that might make a person think that I was blaming the sheep. This will be a very useful piece of information in the future.

 

Maja

[Smalahundur]

 

I will be grateful (and I am not being sarcastic here) if someone will point out what I wrote that might make a person think that I was blaming the sheep. This will be a very useful piece of information in the future.

 

Maja

You didn´t, welcome to the internet, no matter how precise you choose your words, there will always be people that misunderstand you, and there will also be people that really go out of their way to misunderstand you.

I also found the "bring some hay to the post" remark pretty uncalled for.

[Maja]

Well, I guess it all doesn't really matter .

 

Maybe Bonnie and I will go to Iceland to trial, since the set out team is not a factor there . Tomorrow we are going to a brand new sheep/setout/place, and in a week off to the last trial this year to our dear Czech neighbor .

 

Maja

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I just got done judging a full day of PN, Nursery and Novice. The sheep were a farm flock, quite heavy and unwilling to move. One set, the dog was running up, got behind the sheep and one ewe bolted as the setout person began to walk back...no fault of the dog or setout guy ...so he got a rerun. The sheep needed convincing by the dog to move and I could hear people complain about the sheep. In fact, my dog, Rainey had run on them the prior two days and on the first day, she really struggle to move them and one took a run at her so she meet it with a quick nose grip....then the sheep respected her. The second day, she had their number and was much better and placed 4th out of 30 dogs.

 

I told the folks the sheep were heavy and they needed to sharpen up their skills to figure out how to move them. Most of them did figure it out and got around the course. At the handler's meeting one person asked me how I would approch the sheep...I told them, keep your dog on it's feet and moving....once your dog downed, the sheep stopped to graze and it was a struggle to get them going again.

 

Easy sheep??...no but I tell you, the handlers stepped up to the plate and did the course. Some of the sets were fussy and I judged accordingly.

 

The setout crew was fantastic.....if they got a limper or a one that was acting up, they put it away...each setout was spot on and they got 5 stars in my book. if you have setour crew that doesn't know what they are doing it can mess up the runs. I had that once and called for a new crew to replace the ones at the top. That crew were using theoir young dog to set the sheep (train the young dogs) and the sheep were running all over. Needless to say, I wasn't popular with that crew but I expect a setout crew to set the sheep and not train their young dogs. A good setout crew is worth their weight in gold.

 

You will occasionally get a bad set so you may get a rerun or the judge will judge it accordingly. I take what I get and make the best of it. Somedays I get the perfect set and it makes up for the surly set that I had at the trial before.

 

If you seem to get bad sheep all the time, then maybe it's time for you to take a good look at yourself.

 

Diane

[Smalahundur]

Well, I guess it all doesn't really matter .

 

Maybe Bonnie and I will go to Iceland to trial, since the set out team is not a factor there . Tomorrow we are going to a brand new sheep/setout/place, and in a week off to the last trial this year to our dear Czech neighbor .

 

Maja

You are very welcome, and it might even be possible in the near future.

 

At the moment the laws for importing dogs to the country are pretty strict, it´s possible but tiresome, expensive, and includes a long (think about two month) quarantine period. So luckily it is possible to import good breeding dogs, but it is totally unpractical for just a visit.

 

But here is a proposal to change that , and make it a lot easier (farmer´s lobby is dead set against it, afraid of importing foreign animal diseases), just needing a doggy passport, proper vaccinations and such.

 

So who knows, would be fun, we could then state holding an international trial

[stockdogranch]

Julie, your "ramblings" were, as usual, spot on, and thanks for pointing out that sheep have a routine and a rhythm to their day that is completely and totally disrupted for a trial. I think all too often people trialling think of the sheep as something "static"--they are how they are (light, heavy, wary of the dogs, light side-to-side, whatever), and don't realize that the sheep (or cattle) would much rather be doing their usual thing, AND that as the day wears on, things change, sometimes drastically.

 

And as for being hungry, sometimes it doesn't matter how much food you give them in the pens, when they come out, if there is anything even remotely resembling something on which to graze, they will most likely want it. This last year at Soldier Hollow, we pumped the bales of hay into the pens, and they ate it readily (and drank a lot of water, too), but the minute we let them out to walk them to the spot, their heads were down as if they had not eaten in ages. So to make the blanket statement that the sheep were hungry really was not accurate. They were probably full, but needed to graze.

 

And then sometimes they just get pissy standing around in those pens, since they are not following their daily routine. I don't blame them. I also find it interesting that I may think the sheep were particularly sweet, as for me, they came out of the pens nicely, and marched like little soldiers down the hill to their spot and then settled nicely, happily munching whatever there there was to munch on, and I will hear handler after handler at dinner that evening griping about how miserable the sheep were. Not sure where the disconnect is...

A

[Pippin's person]

I will be grateful (and I am not being sarcastic here) if someone will point out what I wrote that might make a person think that I was blaming the sheep. This will be a very useful piece of information in the future.

 

Maja

 

Maja,

 

You asked a question: "So my question is if you see a bunch of sheep that you suspect is pressured by the set out or they are unhappy because they are hungry how would it change your handling (possibly each situation would require something different)? "

 

FWIW, I think the reaction you got had to do with how the question was framed. It presupposes in some sense that the sheep have been stressed by something someone tied to the trial did.

 

Had you framed the question differently, for instance, "do you handle differently if you think cause X or cause Y led the sheep to behave in manner Z", you probably wouldn't have poked at that conceptual field--it was bringing in the set-out crew-and care of the sheep, which were pragmatically foregrounded in the way you phrased the question. You didn't intend that reading, but as a linguist, you know that speech acts are never only about intent, but also about reception and context. In this conversation, the context includes the discussion of problems caused by set-out. It also includes the frequent laying of blame at the feet of the set-out crew for problems with a run (at least in N. America).

 

Also, the semantics of 'suspect' here are a little different than you might realize (here, the use of 'suspect' implies a kind of guilt rather than just being a synonym for "surmise," which is how I think you meant it)

 

(ETA: by 'here' I mean in the question you posed)

 

As usual, it comes down to language.... at least in the eyes of a linguist

[Smalahundur]

Wow, it is going to be very difficult for us non native speakers to be able to participate in these kind of discussions when we have to consider those kind of nuances. I for one didn´t realize the semantic implications of the word "suspect" (and I sincerely doubt this word always implies "guilt" as you seem to say), and had never heard of the word "surmise".

Maybe an idea to cut the foreigners some slack in this respect...?

[Pippin's person]

Wow, it is going to be very difficult for us non native speakers to be able to participate in these kind of discussions when we have to consider those kind of nuances. I for one didn´t realize the semantic implications of the word "suspect" (and I sincerely doubt this word always implies "guilt" as you seem to say), and had never heard of the word "surmise".

Maybe an idea to cut the foreigners some slack in this respect...?

 

I didn't say that suspect always implies guilt--it doesn't (that's why I twice said, 'here'--to make it clear that I meant in the question she had posed). I'm happy to cut slack to anyone, non-native or not--that's precisely why I explained the semantics of 'suspect.'

 

I wasn't claiming that people have to pay attention to that kind of thing; however, Maja asked how the reading might come about that she was laying blame on the sheep. I gave an answer.

 

ETA: I just realized that you could well have been interpreting 'here' as something like 'in N. America,' so I clarified that in my original post. Nuance is a problem for all of us when we communicate via the web unfortunately

[juliepoudrier]

Maja,

My comments regarding blame were not directed at you; they were a direct response to Amelia's comments, which I will copy below. There is no specific answer to your more basic question. If you say the sheep are escaping to the draw, and I tell you to try a half flank, that's a simple fix for a specific problem. If you say the sheep are pissy, or tired, or hungry, there is no simple fix. I can't tell you to have your dog do X to fix the problem. It's really more a problem your dog has to figure out how to handle. One of my dogs would bite the hockis of heavy sheep and get excused. But that's okay by me because at home, if I want my sheep moved and they don't want to, I'm not waiting around until the sheep decide they want to move, I'm going to ask hium to move them. This is what I'm talking about when I mention the artificiality of trials. Your dog can't necessarily grip their heels or hocks to make them move, so it's going to have to come up with some other method. The most you can do as a handler is try to help the dog based on what you're seeing in the moment and how the sheep are reacting. Maybe flanking the dog back and forth behind the sheep will get them moving, but it's just as likely it won't. Maybe the dog buzzing them (slicing a flank) will do it. There's just no easy answer to a general sheep attitude problem.

 

There's no reason to use dogs in the pens.

 

When you first let sheep out to be set, most of the time, they'll slow down or even stop at some point if you keep dogs off them until they do. If people would just hang onto their dogs, and give them a minute when they first let them out, things would go so much more smoothly.

 

Only the most enlightened trial promoters and set out people realize how important it is to feed the sheep throughout a trial. ... Just about anywhere you go where people are talking about how difficult the sheep are to whatever, it's because they're hungry.

 

Next time you go to a trial, and there is discussion about how consistently tough the sheep are, ask yourself what's going on at the top. Set out can make or break your run, and an entire trial. We don't discuss it enough and there are precious few who get it right.

 

1. As I stated in one of my posts, set out pen design can make a BIG, no, HUGE difference in how sheep are handled in the pens. The blanket statement that "there's no reason to use dogs in pens (unless the sheep are dead broke knee knockers)" sounds to me like the sort of statement a person would make if they didn't do a lot of set out. Depending on the way the pen is designed, a dog may or may not be needed. Obviously if one is going to use a dog in the pens, it better be a dog who can work quietly in such situations. I even gave an example of sheep doing repeated end runs around the humans and the only way they could get the sheep to stop was to take one of my dogs in with them (on leash because I didn't think she would necessarily work for them). When someone claims "X or Y should never be done," invariably there will be plenty of exceptions. Consider a pen that holds 200 sheep. When you get down to 50 sheep in that same pen and you need to move those sheep forward toward the actual set out pens, how easy do you think that will be to do by oneself? And each time the human (maybe wtth a dog) has to move sheep forward into the set out pens/chutes the sheep are being disturbed. The only time the sheep can rest relatively undisturbed at a trial is in the exhaust, and even then there's the disruption at the end of each run as more sheep are sent into the exhaust.

 

2. I can't speak to range sheep, but here in the east, when you kick the sheep out of the set out, they generally cling right to the set out pens. They don't want to leave their buddies. You could sit there all day waiting for them to wander out in the direction of the set out, which is usually far enough from the pens to allow the competing dog to get deep enough behind the packet of sheep without having to go behind the set out pens. So you have to get the sheep to the set out spot somehow. Perhaps we should lure them with treats? More often than not, here in the east (can't speak for western range sheep) you're not going to get them to the set out spot if you don't have a dog to PUSH them there. And then once you get them to the set out, they will settle for a brief time before deciding they'd rather go elsewhere, like to the barn, to the gate to their night pasture, etc. If you don't have a dog to hold them, they aren't going to stay, even if there's good grass. Because that particular spot is not the place they'd necessarily choose to settle and eat if they were on their own. And of course handlers don't want to send their dogs until the sheep are EXACTLY on top of the set out point (marked by a cone or whatever), so it's not possible to leave the sheep 10 ft. away from that cone because the handler won't come to the post to send his/her dog because, gasp! the sheep aren't on the EXACT marked spot. Never mind that the judge will judge from where the sheep are set. <sarcasm intended>

 

3. Yes, it is important to offer feed and water to the sheep throughout a trial. But as I stated in a more recent post, ther biggest issue is that the sheep are in an inherently stressful situation and their normal routine is being disrupted. Many times they don't eat what they're offered and sometimes they do. But the example I gave in a previous post was of sheep who ate extremely well in th epens--good quality hay--and yet the minute they got to the grass of the hay field on which the trial was being run, they put their heads down to graze and became quite heavy. As I pointed out in another post, these were not hungry sheep, but at certain times of the day they wanted to eat because those times were their normal eating times. No amount of providing feed in the pens will cause the sheep to want to deviate from their normal daily routine. And sheep will almost always choose grass, even poor quality grass, over hay.

 

4. Although Amelia has since claimed that she's not saying that tough sheep are the fault of the set out, her last statement quoted above belies that.

 

In my post before this one, I gave a bunch of examples of normal sheep behavior and the things that can affect such behavrior. Like many animals, humans included, sheep are creatures of habit. When we disrupt their normal routines to hold a sheepdog trial, when we put them in artificial groups with sheep who might not actually even be sheep they like, and when we march them around a field a couple of times a day, it's no wonder that they may not act like sheep we work at home who generally get to spend most of the day doing the things they normally do, with us disuprting them for just a small part of that time. Heck, even using groups of three makes for a completely different dynamic, because three sheep won't behave much like a "flock," whereas 4 or 5 sheep do tend to exhibit more flocklike behavior.

 

To reiterate, I don't think that you (Maja) were blaming the sheep. I understood that you wre asking about the sorts of things that affect sheep and therefore affect a run at a trial. I tried to answer that in my last post. My comments regarding blame were not directed at you. I'm sorry if you found my attempts to be helpful in response to your questions to be lacking.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Arguments, disagreements, and misunderstandings aside, this topic has produced a lot of good discussion and provided a lot of good information - thanks, largely, to folks like Julie who have taken the time to explain to the rest of us just what goes on "at the top".

 

My hat is off to those who do the long, hard jobs that set-out requires!

[Cynthia P]

Oh dear.

 

 

I was NOT saying you were complaining about the sheep. I see it all the time with difficult sheep, mainly from people who's dogs wont' cover or allow the sheep to push on them ( I have one of those dogs...and it certainly is'nt the sheeps' fault if they can learn my dog doesn't have enough power to push them).

 

When you first start working with a set out person, work very closely to the sheep send your dog and help her realize that the person/dog are not there to interfere; Have your dog lift the sheep, rinse, lather, repeat at greater distances.

 

Than start to have your set out person move a little or speak a little, Give your dog the confidence to lift off a moving person or moving dog or someone that is waving their crook. It all takes practice. That way if the set out crew is slightly "wild" that day your dog will have the confidence to pick up the sheep.

 

It is hard on the internet when some of us add our little pet peeves to the conversation, it doesn't mean the comment was directed at you; just the trialling complainers!

 

Cynthia

[Cynthia P]

To Julie's point too. The set out pen design and crew make a huge difference. I am lucky to have my friends kids (not goats ) that can run the set out pens. All of these kids have grown up with either sheep and cattle and know how to have them move smoothly and quietly. They can pick out trouble makers or limpers etc and are worth every $$. I'd rather give them more money and have set out as volunteer (unless you were close by julie )

 

Cynthia

[Maja]

Thank you all good people for all the wonderful information related to trialling, set out, linguistics and other things great and small. I just came back from a training session with very difficult sheep. The owner said "they are crazy aren't they?" And I said "No, they are wonderful!" But I am very tired, and very proud of my tireless puppy, she sliced in the outruns but heck! other than that she was great. She loved the challenge.

 

Julie,

 

I am sorry I wasn't on top of things, thinking about the upcoming trial I missed some things in this thread. Thank you for all the additional information. All your post are very useful and they explained a lot. So I understand that the reason for sheep's bad mood is irrelevant for handling - you just do the same as you always do when dealing with with the particular problem.

 

Cynthia,

 

Thank you for your suggestions for training with the set out.

 

Maja

[Amelia]

I also find it interesting that I may think the sheep were particularly sweet, as for me, they came out of the pens nicely, and marched like little soldiers down the hill to their spot and then settled nicely, happily munching whatever there there was to munch on, and I will hear handler after handler at dinner that evening griping about how miserable the sheep were. Not sure where the disconnect is...

 

Maybe the disconnect comes in the difference between moving them 25-50 yards more or less in a straight line, and moving them several hundred through panels, between the post and literally thousands of spectators, driving them up, down and all around, splitting them into 2 small groups and putting them in a teeny, tiny little pen. Or maybe Scott, Amanda, Bill, Dennis, Bev and them just aren't very good.

 

In any case, this is exactly the fundamental misunderstanding of sheep behavior that I am talking about.

 

Next time you go to a trial, and there is discussion about how consistently tough the sheep are, ask yourself what's going on at the top.

 

How you get from me considering the set out to blaming the set out is beyond me, Julie. Have it your way. No improvement is ever needed.

 

Cheers all,