lying down at the top

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by GR:

If it matters, over ten years, and Open Ranch. How about you?

7 years... competing in Open for 4.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

GR,

 

I assume your name is Gary? Anyway, I am sorry to have missed your tongue in your cheek on the Jack/Kathy thing. I weren't in no tiz, neither. Hardly, but what I did is just swing a little wide so as to be sure no one took your words as literal, and make the same moronic comment I made to some other dope, ("hey, Jack taught Kathy everything she knows") and take it as gospel. Yeah, I was an idiot not to take your wit as such and have a little chuckle on it, but this is the problem with the internet (and boards, chats, etc.) Sorry. Don't go away mad and hurt.

Making a fool of myself would be my main reason to avoid posting here, and I feel stupid sometimes, but not so much as to not keep doing it on occasion.

[tucknjill]

I just want to know when I get to be a "GENTLE SOUTHERN...and if thats not bad enough..LADY" for christs sake???!!! Wow, stick on the internet long enough and you can morph into anything..better get out my white gloves...Going out to push off my tight running dog...(first for me) Have a nice day boys and girls.

[Sue R]

You have to watch what the dog is doing, the affect that has on the sheep, then react with a correction if it's wrong. Then, asuming the dog "takes" the correction (you see some give), you back off and give the dog another chance, and watch for some evidence that the dog is giving you something - not necessarily the whole enchilada, but something.

Thanks, Rebecca, for your entire post here but particularly for this part. I, too, have problems although I think it's often just because "things happen" much faster than I think and respond. I'm still *thinking* about it long after the time has passed to *do* anything about it.

 

I've been working with Celt on an "issue" we've had problems with for a while (not on sheep but on cattle, particularly the "teenage" young stock). I have recently seen him giving a little to me even when my timing doesn't allow me to anticipate the incorrect behavior and avoid it entirely by a timely "interception".

 

I appreciate your reminder that his giving me "something" is a step in the right direction, and I shouldn't get over-reactive when I don't get it solved completely right now. I can tell that I'm making an impression on him and need to not put undue pressure on him.

 

I can see recently that he's realizing that he's wrong, and we're making some progress, even though it's slow (probably largely because I am slow, as well as not knowing how to deal with this properly in the past, so it's become ingrained as a bad habit).

 

This has been a super thread!

[Wendy V]

I'm sorry to see GR go. To me, it seemed as if he was making an effort to help a novice with a question. Training issues are difficult to tackle over cyberspace and are prone to many interpretations. His interpretation should be as respected as others. As for "outing" him as an Open Ranch handler, I find that in poor taste. He is one of our own, people. We have available to us at liitle hats an "Ask the Expert" column, and as far as I can tell, most of us have not been asked to host it.

 

Regrads,

 

Wendy

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I can't see that at all. On the contrary, I think that when anonymous posters give training advice it's only fair and polite for them to disclose their level of expertise. Everyone is entitled to post their opinions on a training topic, and a novice will often have helpful things to contribute, but it's absurd to think that a reader should give the same weight to a novice class handler's advice as to a top open handler's advice. As we all appreciate, it's hard to give advice over the internet, and it's hard for a novice to know how to evaluate the advice given. When a poster discloses his/her identity, at least the novice questioner can go to the HA standings and see, for example, that Christine Koval and Rook are 6th in points nationwide, and that Denise Wall and Mick are in the top 50 nationwide. While that doesn't necessarily make their opinions correct (and while there are non-trialing folks whose opinions are demonstrably entitled to great respect), it at least gives the novice questioner something to go on in weighing the advice offered. I think it's legitimate to ask anonymous posters to disclose the same type of information.

[kimkathan]

The latest results are in.....

 

We went to our lesson last night. His intrepretation of what MAY be happening as things were going along last night, was that she's overflaning at the top, putting pressure onto the side of the sheep, rather than behind, causing them to bolt down the field. His current recommendation is to start to "talk" to her at around 3 & 9, not stop her, but to kind of get her attention and lie her down at 11:30 and 12:30, to get her to stop at the top (right now she's SO fast that it takes a few steps to stop the momentum)

 

He also made the comment to me that through his observations and a discussion with Jack Knox a long time ago (I guess he learned from him when first starting out 15+ years ago) that he feels that when a dog starts out too wide (similar to when people "slingshot" their dogs out from behind to start out wide), it rarley carries through to the top and the dog will most certainly flatten out at the top. If a dog starts out correctly or even a little straight, but then feels where the sheep are and then bends out on its own, in his oppinion is a better dog. He also feels and has been backed up by a few other people I've talked with, that a dog will start to widen out on it's own as it gets a bit older.

[Carson Crazies]

Greenie question here. So, lets say my dog has sliced in at the top, and the sheep are barreling towards me - with dog in hot persuit. Of course she doesn't want to lie down at that point - her sheep are getting away. What do I do then? Are there ways to salvage the situation?

 

(I realize that the bigger picture is getting her to stop slicing in to begin with)

[Pipedream Farm]

Situation: dog in hot pursuit of sheep coming at handler (i.e chasing the sheep on the fetch).

 

The pace of the dog should be lowered preferably to where it is not pushing hard on the sheep but still fetching (i.e. pace); but if your dog hasn't learned a pace command then it should be downed. In either case (pace or down) the first command should be enforced. Often this will mean going towards the dog. I strive towards 1 command and if not taken enforce the command; however, I'm lazy like the next guy and will slip into yelling instead of going towards the dog. When I do a better job of enforcing every command not taken; I find my dogs are better at taking the first command.

 

Every dog is different and can handle different amounts of pressure in terms of correction; choose wisely based upon your dog's temperament.

 

Mark

 

FYI (about 9 years and the last 4 in Open)

[Deb Mickey]

when a dog starts out too wide (similar to when people "slingshot" their dogs out from behind to start out wide), it rarely carries through to the top and the dog will most certainly flatten out at the top.

In my limited experience I've see this too.

 

If a dog starts out correctly or even a little straight, but then feels where the sheep are and then bends out on its own, in his opinion is a better dog.

In my limited, humble experience , I agree with this too.

 

FWIW - going into my 8th year training & trialing and going in to my 2nd no way stellar year :eek: in Open with my from the novice-novice class, crazy girl Jill.

[Nancy O]

she's overflanking at the top

you could add a correction as she overflanks at the top, such as saying "Heh" and raising your stick to the side she is overflanking on.

 

Nancy O

 

FYI- Oldest border collie just turned 5, trialing for 4 years, running Open for 2 1/2.

[Denise Wall]

I don't know why I'm writing this because I'm pretty sure it will be ignored by those who have decided the issues raised in this thread boil down to, if you are not a top 20 Open handler, you aren't good enough to post advice.

 

As I wrote before and was handily ignored by those wanting to believe otherwise, Tony Luper, who has not yet run in Open, posted good advice and no one had ANY problem with that. I'm practically positive NOT ONE person here had a problem with GR because he, a novice, was posting advice. He seems knowledgeable to me and in general his advice was good. My specific problems in this thread (although my frustration with him has been building over time) were when he told at least five experienced people who had individually and cumulatively seen dogs in a wide cross section of North America that they were wrong and it was uncommon/rare for dogs to end up running too wide based on what he had seen, presumably mostly in the Texas area and at trials. (What is seen at trials is not a good indicator of disqualifying faults anyway. There are certainly plenty of dogs washing out from working too wide all over the world that never hit a trial field.) The second thing that bothered me was telling Renee (unsolicited) she was probably doing it wrong when she described how she addressed a training problem with her first dog.

 

Tone in posting aside, here is where I have the main question. Renee is a thoughtful and talented trainer who has placed well at such prestigious trials as the double lift trial at Edgeworth, and with the same dog she described I might add. Would any of you have posted the response posted to Renee if it were, say, Jack Knox himself who had posted what she posted (and this could have been possible with Jack's first dog)? If not, why not? Would it be because he was more experienced and successful than you? If that's true then ask yourself where is the line drawn on that?

 

(This section is in general, not about GR) It is unfortunate for many that you don't get credit for doing something until you've actually done it. It's not uncommon to hear KC people who've never worked their dog on stock or only had very minimal experience, say they just know their dog would be a top trial dog if only they had the time, land, money, etc. Many of these people think they should get the same amount of credit for this as people who actually do accomplish these things. Would you value these "champion in their own mind" people's opinions on training dogs for trials as much as someone who had actually done it successfully? If not, then where is the line drawn on when you CAN value someones opinion? It can be extremely difficult for beginners to distinguish between someone who *sounds* like they know what they're talking about and those who really know what they're talking about. Experienced trainers might can recognise these people but can beginners? So who do they listen to? Those who speak with the most authority? On boards such as this one, it is often the respect shown to that person by the other posters that cue the astute novice to the validity of the advice. KillerH (now Howdyjabo), for example, is someone I've known for years and even though she doesn't like trialing, is an excellent dog trainer with many years of experience. She doesn't have recent objective (and I say that in the loosest sense) trialing accomplishments, but anyone can tell by the respect she is given by the other board members that her opinion is valued.

 

In thinking about the things I've written here and how they can be taken out of context and used to spark lively, contentious debate on other boards and such, I can merely say that this is just the way life is. Sad but true. People get credit for their experience and accomplishments. This is pretty much true in all walks of life. If you are for example an experienced engineer, it does not sit well when someone, say, still in engineering school with a more narrow frame of reference blows in and with great authority, tells everyone in your department they're all wrong and discounts everything anybody says. On the other hand, you probably would not mind at all if this person just offers some good advice.

 

So, the issue in my mind was NEVER that GR shouldn't post advice because he was not a top handler. Take it or leave it. That?s where I'm coming from on this issue.

[Shoofly]

"you could add a correction as she overflanks at the top, such as saying "Heh" and raising your stick to the side she is overflanking on."

 

You could also try saying her name at the top before she runs too far to "mark" where you want her to come in.

 

FYI- 11 years trialing, 6-7 in Open.

[Howdyjabo]

The latest tounge in cheek-- FYI resumes

 

Gave me an idea---

 

Isn't there a way to make "something" come up all on its own at the bottom of every post????

 

Maybe it would help people to keep track or hear in the first place what the background on everyone is.Gotta admit that I loose track of who's who when I can't put a face to them all. It would help people target their advice as well as "pidgion" whole the advice given.

 

My background would read

Tinkered sucessfully with trialing up to Open years ago. Use dogs daily on my preconditioning opperation/fresh bulls 400-1000 lbs.

[NancyO]

Isn't there a way to make "something" come up all on its own at the bottom of every post????

You can go to My Profile at the top of the page, and edit profile. there is an area for signature that would show up at the bottom of your posts.

 

Just realized I've been logging in with a very old ID, was wondering what happened to my avatar and why there were only 7 posts listed!

 

Nancy O

[Howdyjabo]

"<< As for "outing" him as an Open Ranch handler, I find that in poor taste. >>"

 

Need to go back and reread the posts......

I was the one who used the term "outing" and it wasn't in refference to GR.

 

It was in refference to "not signing your name"-- and that I didn't care-- that they would eventually "out" themselves as lieing or exagerating their background with or without a signature.

 

In that case "outting"'s negative connotation is appropriate.

 

GR was just asked to share his background-- which again he should have been asked to share that.

No one ever tried to "out "(ie with a negagtive connotation) GR .

[Pipedream Farm]

Okay back to the training aspect of this. There was something I didn't get into earlier because I knew it was only going to fall on deaf ears in GR's case. However, that's not fair to others and it doesn't make it really clear why I was suggesting an alternative style for the problem. I did, in fact, eventually get the timing right so that Starr was not running faster and tighter and beating me. What I accomplished in doing that was to make her flank off mindlessly into orbit. She's from wide running lines, plus she's a bit of a sensitive bullhead (can outwardly appear a bit stubborn or hard headed, but has a soft core underneath). This style of training for her was not appropriate. It set up a really bad fight between us in which there was no winner. Alternative methods proved much more successful for her. That said, I don't have a problem with the other method either. I just simply don't think it fits every dog and situation and it's always good to have a back up plan if needed.

Renee

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Denise Wall:

I?m practically positive NOT ONE person here had a problem with GR because he, a novice, was posting advice. He seems knowledgeable to me and in general his advice was good. My specific problems in this thread (although my frustration with him has been building over time)

Thanks for posting this Denise (the whole thing, though I'm quoting just a small portion). Sorry to keep beating that poor, dead horse, but like Denise, my frustration with GR wasn't solely based on *what* he posted in this thread (his actual advice), but the general arrogance and dismissiveness of other opinions that came through in all of his posts. GR showed this same pattern of posting when he was writing to the general discussion section, so it's not as if some of us took a sudden dislike to a person who is a novice handler and posting advice, but rather to a pattern of posting behavior of which this thread is just the most recent example.

 

Oh, and for anyone who cares, 5.5 years (starting with a dog from rescue--I must get bonus points for that!), 2 in open.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Denise, I don't think anyone could have interpreted what you wrote (or I hope what I wrote!) as saying that only top 20 open handlers should give advice. Still, I'm glad you posted this, because when I said "there are non-trialing folks whose opinions are demonstrably entitled to great respect," KillerH/Howdyjabo was foremost in my mind. I hesitated to single anyone out by name, so I didn't, but I'm glad you did. Her real work qualifications are tops (which we know because she HAS shared them with us, and because she's not all THAT anonymous ), and I'm repeatedly impressed with how she perceptively grasps the situation behind a question and manages to distill terrific analysis and advice into one or two sentences, which is no easy accomplishment. The difference in mindset between "I need to push that dog out" and "I need to correct that dog for cutting in" is a good example -- a distinction that anyone could productively reflect on, IMO.

[Little Bo Boop]

As a new member to the board and and a novice, I hesitate to say this, but then again I'm not known to keep my pie hole shut when I should :)Just an observation, but it seems the treatment of GR has been a bit harsh, and the continued flogging of the expired equine seems a little excessive. No, I don't know GR,I do understand he's a very nice guy...that being said, I'm on several BB's, mostly horse related, people get into discussions all the time about different training methods etc...there are of course varying degrees of experience, and a myriad of techniques to attain the desired results. The internet, and BB's in particular, are a strange animal. It's very easy to be taken the wrong way in a post, some are better at getting their points across, some people are more abrasive...just like in real life. I guess what I'm trying to say is that BB's like this can be very helpful and informative, you ask a question and you're going to get varying advice....some good some not so good. For myself, it's my opinion that this particular discipline requires a certain amount of common sense,and you're going to be required to wade through the chaff at times. I would never think that I'm going to be able to train/trial my dog relying only on the information I get from a BB. I enjoy reading the posts, some apply to me...some make me go ahhh,now that makes sense... but I also rely on my trainer to help me with problem areas. JMO, but it just seemed to me the pile on of another poster, who was just offering his 2 cents, was a bit over the top, and I hate to see someone who may have a lot to offer run off the board. Now let the flaming begin

[Jennifer Glen]

Boy! I'm glad I got out of this discussion on the first page. It got a little rough for me. BTW on the Jack and Kathy discussion, I just wanted you all to know that I taught my husband everything he knows too. (I hope the wink Graemlin showed up!

Jenny

[Little Bo Boop]

I just wanted you all to know that I taught my husband everything he knows too.

LOL, that's good, the secret is to not teach him everything 'you' know

[Howdyjabo]

Oh Good Lord------

 

I have been taken to task for my comment about GR being able "to REDEAM himself with other thoughful posts latter".

 

Geezzzzzz--- The redeam was in reference to his irritating some people and had NOTHING to do with his advice(which I had already posted that I saw nothing wrong with his advice).

 

I apologize to anyone including GR for leaving my comment open to being misconstrued by people out there looking for some way to do it.

[Howdyjabo]

Ok poor old GR........

 

We ran him off the board--He was soooooo innocnet

 

Now shame on the rest of you for running faithful useful posters off--that get tired of the same junk over and over.

You didn't even take time to really read anything--

just warped it into some kind of witch hunt.

 

When people like Denise and Eillen feel like they have to defend themselves from attack-- with little or NO backup????

When people continue to say something was said OVER and OVER and OVER---When it was CLEARLY explained that they got the wrong end of the stick. Oh yeah...pet peeve-- whatever happened to appologizing(sp)when you clearly jumped someone in error.

 

I'm done posting....... done with this twisted,warping, backstabbing crap.

 

You probably won't hear it from anyone else but before I quit----for what it is worth

I'm sorry Eileen and Denise that somehow you got all this CRAP dumped on you again.

I'm sorry that ALL the people that have benefited from your time and experience over the years-- Hung you out to dry AGAIN.

[Eileen Stein]

Whoa, KillerH! I don't know who's taking you to task privately, but they're not writing me, so I'm blissfully unaware of whatever they're saying. Please don't let it get you down, whatever it is.

 

GR didn't strike me as a delicate flower, and I don't think anything that was posted here could accurately be characterized as running him off the board. If some people think otherwise, well, I think they're wrong. So be it. You in particular tried to keep the focus on the training issues and keep the other stuff from taking over.

 

He may change his mind and resume posting -- he wouldn't be the first, believe me. I hope he does, especially if he gives some thought to why he evoked the reaction he did, and acts on that knowledge.

 

But whatever he might do, I sure as hell hope you're not going to stop posting! DON'T DO IT!! We would all be the losers if you did. Think of the people who DO understand what you're saying and DO benefit from it, and forget about the others. Please?